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Appendix
A: My
Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries
By Winston Wu
Note: In
response to
some long discussions I had with two Christian missionary friends (who
do not wish to be named here), I
wrote up
the following summary response to them, which states their claims and
my
responses/objections in an attempt to narrow down our discussion to the
bottom line impasse points. If
you find
it useful, you can send it to other Christians who are
preaching
to you as well, so you can get right to the bottom line issues
they can’t
answer. (Or you may print out or
email my Anti-Evangelism
Tract or Summary
of Christian Circular Arguments and Assumptions Debunked)
Below the outline is a response by FaithRada, a fascinating mystic I
know.
Purpose: The
reason I
feel compelled to write this
outline summary and response of our discussions because 1) I constantly
get
interrupted during my presentation to you two, to the point that I
cannot even
complete one point or argument among several that I usually have. Therefore
I hope this outline will lay out my
response and the problems I see to your claims point by point. 2) I
hope that
this outline will help us all see the big picture, and identify the
core root
of our differences, so we do not continue in endless fruitless debate. This
outline below details 2 major areas that
we’ve been discussing: 1) the testimonials of changed lives
of
born again
Christians, and 2) huge assumptions regarding Salvation and the Bible.
Conflict
of purpose of our
discussion:
Let me note first that one
main problem I
have identified in our discussions is we have a conflict of purpose. I
get the impression that this is not an open
discussion where we listen to each other’s arguments and
ideas,
and respond to
them.
You two do not seem
interested in
hearing or considering my arguments and views.
I get the impression that to
you, our whole discussion is all
about this
“truth” from the Bible, and whether I am willing to
come to
terms with it.
You do not seem to be
willing to consider
that you may be wrong or that I may be correct, nor do you wish to hear
and
examine my reasons, arguments, and evidence.
This represents a conflict of
purpose, motive, perception, and
mentality
between us in our discussions.
I. Your claims vs. My responses
and objections
A. Your
claim:
Testimony of changed lives
– You argue that the many
wonderful beautiful
inspiring testimonials of changed lives of born again Christians proves
the
validity of their faith.
B. Related
claim: Life
without
Christ is empty, and no
non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.
C. Related
claim: Even
if I got
all the things I want in this
world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would leave
me
empty.
II.
Assumptions
you have regarding Salvation and the Bible we are in
disagreement on
A. All
people
are wicked sinners and destined to
spend an eternity in hell unless they receive Christ as their Savior.
B. The
Bible is
the complete infallible inerrant
word of God.
C. A
is true
because of B (e.g. “The Bible says
so”) and everything that doesn’t fit in with the
two
assumptions above is
false and/or of Satan.
Conclusion
Based on
the above summary
outline of your claims, my responses, objections, and identification of
core problems,
I conclude that the core problems I described are unanswerable and mark
an
impasse point in our discussions, as you two would most likely repeat
the same
claims in response to them.
Though both
of your are extremely fervent in your beliefs, I hope you can open your
minds
to try to understand my objections. In
addition to the arguments and objections I present above, there are
many more
in my treatise addressing all major Christian Evangelical
arguments
at www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Contents.htm. Thank
you for your time and attention to my
summary response outline.
See
also:
Mystic
FaithRada
Comments on My Summary
Response to Two Christian Missionaries
In
response to the summary response outline above,
an out-of-this-world mystic on my list named FaithRada
wrote this eloquent, impressive, and enlightening analysis of them and
the
meaning of true “Christ Consciousness”.
It’s definitely
worth reading and will stretch your mind
to new heights!
FaithRada
writes:
In a
message dated
Winston: ....( to
Missionaries)
I get the
impression that
this is not an open discussion where we listen
to each other’s arguments and ideas, and respond to
them.
You two do not
seem interested in hearing or considering my arguments and
views.
I get
the impression that to you, our whole discussion is all about this
“truth” from
the Bible, and whether I am willing to come to terms with it.
You
do not
seem to be willing to consider that you may be wrong or that I may be
correct,
nor do you wish to hear and examine my reasons, arguments, and
evidence. >>
Having
been in this type of
"deadlock"
many times I finally began to look deeper .. into why some ARE
so
"deadlocked" in their particular chosen "Beliefs" in
the first place.. So I asked "God" /. Higher
Self
-and this is what I got back... KARMA
. People are
born into or seek out
whatever "religion" or belief system is needed to support one's
current karma.
So..
it is not as
though they have a
"choice" per say.... they are literally STUCK in that belief system
until their karma is done there. They
WILL find
out later
that their "mission" was not about others.. but about
themselves.
Were
they able to
approach others with love
and respect? With humility? OR... did they have to
be
"RIGHT" and become arrogant in their "supposed"
knowledge? Judging themselves as right and the others as wrong?
I have met
Christians that
were so sweet and
loving.. who really tried to align with the inner Love that Jesus spoke
of, and
I have also met the ones who felt that their own intellectual
understanding of the scriptures was "where it was at".... Ironically
"God", Supreme Consciousness, does not even CARE what belief system
one holds AS LONG AS ONE HAS A LOVING
NATURE.
Eventually,
(though
probably not in this
life) they will understand what it means to be
REALLY "Born
Again". Physical death does not bring this kind
of knowledge.
*** Some
really do know..
but it is NOT a normal knowing of the mind, it
is
something MUCH more. MOST are only talking about a
surface
shift,
which is fine in its own right .. but NOT the ultimate
KNOWING.
To
be truly BORN Again means to "die into" the Ultimate
Reality.. to recognize that there is nothing here BUT God...
and we
are ALL THAT,
(though in
a contracted mode)
This is the ONE death Jesus references
and not the
physical
death.. which is not that big a deal, when you finally see what that is
about.
Someone of
a religious mind
set.. (any
religion, it does not matter) , who
is not truly
"Born Again"
or, had their own dormant inner Divinity Fully Awakened by Grace, will
hear
this only as some blasphemous deranged statement.. not yet able
to perceive what is actually being suggested
here. It is
NOT an intellectual knowing. If one THINKS they know.. they
do
not
know. THINKing
belongs to duality.
It is a
process of the finite mind. whereas "God" reveals IT's
TOTAL SELF within the NON dual state..
beyond
mind. To have that kind of Knowing one must BECOME
one with
THAT
which
is.
It is one thing to know there is
(a) God... and
that is wonderful to be
sure, still, most people hold that ONLY as a belief.
Yet, to
many .... knowing there is God
... is what THEY mean by
being "Born Again"..
But ... it is
quite
another thing
to know there is ONLY God.... everywhere...
manifesting AS everything and everyone here. To have Jesus' knowledge..
to know
YOU yourself ARE the Christ...and that there is ONLY The Christ (or
Pure
Consciousness) .... THAT
is being FULLY Born Again. In
that
moment you REALIZE that you have
never BEEN Born NOR do you EVER
DIE. At
that point you don't bother trying to change someone's religion because
you see
ALL Religions as your own SELF. Truly God
does not
care..
only people who still have some work to do really
think
the
beliefs of others matters to God.
But it
DOES matter to us !, since it
is our own
limited minds that keep us
from fully knowing God.. our own True SELF.
A
true 'born again'
would not say ANY
religion or concept of God was wrong... they would only tell you that
it is incomplete, as it
must
be to the finite mind.
Without Grace.. no
shift.
Jesus was not simply about heaven.. that
was just an
aside, for
those not yet ready to really "Die" yet. Jesus'
main purpose here,as
with any who come in Christ Consciousness,
was/is about becoming One
with THAT.
Win, you
could
suggest that they seek out the living Christ... HERE AND
NOW.
It is manifest for those with the eyes to see.
It has NEVER left us. It has always been closer to
us than
our own
breath.
What one
NEEDS is to have their
own Divine inner energy awakened.. and then they can
at least
have a
chance of understanding the Christ's words from the
most
pure
perspective, with the blockages of finite
mind
removed. THAT is the power of
Grace. But.. that
takes incredibly good
karma. (karma
being a topic which is mostly
misunderstood by the Western mind,and
even many
in the "Eastern" philosophies.)
In
the
Bible, "Thomas" had
excellent karma.... Peter? ... he needed a little
more
work.
His anger and his jealousy blocked the deeper meaning of Jesus'
teachings from
his mind and that is true for all humanity to this day to
one degree
or another.
Without
LOVE ....born of
humility and respect for the Divine, that
exists within,
and as all living
beings (and
also all inanimate objects),
one may HEAR the words, but those words will not
reveal
their
inner truth to them.
So..
if you listen to
Peter's words with mundane ears.. you get ONLY what he got... (not enough
to Die into The
Supreme One totally.)
if you
listen to THOMAS .. the
WAY Thomas listened.. then
you get it all. For
Peter ...
Jesus became a religion. For Thomas ... he became
One With
Jesus, he
achieved Godhood.
So
Win....
Think back
on your own
experiences with
religion. You yourself were SO adamant at one point yes?
BUT
then,
at some point you had a "shift"... you saw things differently.. WHY?
Because.... that karma was done.
True,
we then move on
to different karma,..
but NOT until our current karma is done.
We may
THINK we have free
choice in these matters..
but not so, not *directly anyway In
the same way .. you are going through your own karma right now by
feeling the
NEED to chase "bodies" around
* (
free will is a very complex and esoteric topic. It is real yet it is
not real)
Eventually
one learns how
to get off the roller
coaster all together.. but apparently you are not ready for that
yet. Sez
La Vie.
Eventually
they will evolve into a
higher understanding.. but remember we ARE playing in
eternity
here. Supreme Consciousness has plenty of time to play out
all
the
scenarios.
My
suggestion?
Just send them blessings
and move on, because they really cannot "hear" you.
You could
contemplate this
though.. Most, if not
all meetings are karmic in nature. So they may have something
to
offer
you.. though it will probably NOT be what they think it is.
You
COULD use
them as a "mirror" for your own way of being in the world right
now. Different topic, different level.. but the same scenario
at
work. Everyone has something to teach us, if we can
look
deeply
enough into it.
It
is
said that if we are
continually experiencing the
same
kind of scenarios over and over again, it is
because we
have not
yet learned that lesson. Once we DO learn, then that issue
does
not come
back and we get to "move on". When you think about it, it
sort
of makes sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WIN <<
• The problem: The
first problem is that
these cases
do automatically mean that all the doctrines of your faith and the
Bible are
all true. Nor do they erase all other similar testimonials of
other
religions contrary to your own.>>
FR
~ Seems
only logical .. Until you see
how one's karma can blocking them from
that viewpoint
right
now.
•
Problem
# 2: The second problem is that I could
EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and
testimonials from
other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups,
Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans,
even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc. However, just because
those
testimonials are true and sincere does not mean each of those belief
systems
and practices are right for everyone. The same goes for your
faith too.
2. Your response: Your response to the
above is that
these
same testimonials of changed lives in other religions/belief systems
mean
nothing if they are not based on the Bible, and that Satan could be
behind them
because he can appear as an angel of light and is the father of
lies.>>
Ahhh
The Satan
ploy. When in doubt go
find Satan to help you out
:0
But
again,
remember.. they CANNOT yet accept what
you suggest since their Karma is blocking them from what
should
be
obvious.
When
someone is working from Belief, or even from
subjective knowing,
as opposed to Transcendent Knowing, they will never fully
grasp that
there is a valid, albeit LIMITED
view, to
ALL perspectives.
Until
we move
INTO the MIND of God.. there
can be no REAL Divine or transcendent Knowing,where
Supreme
Consciousness holds ALL perspectives as ITs
own. Not
judging any of it but simply enjoying that limited perspective.
One
who is still
contracted and has not entered
the supreme "Mind of God" will only hear
statements
of Divine Knowledge as just some other mundane perspective of
the
mind..
and ASSUME the speaker is simply falling into their own trap and coming
from
subjective mind. But that may not be the case at
all. They may have received Transcendent
Knowledge.
THIS is
True
revelation.
This was the
reality of
the Transcendentalists such as Thoreau and Emerson and Alcott
etc.
NO one else can really understand them until they become ONE
with
THEM. It certainly IS
baffling. .. but that is
also
a part of the Game God plays. As "HE" hides right in
front
of His own SELF.
Ultimately people HEAR from
where THEY are, and not necessarily from the state where the
speaker
is. Evolution of soul is real ... the Good news is
.... it's
as
long a journey as we chose it to be. The Bad news
is.....
it's as
long a journey that we chose it to be.
Back
to the
point... it is foolish for anyone
to THINK they can just read legitimate Divine Scripture from any True
path and
THINK they understand it. The writer MUST be
Divinely
inspired PLUS
the READER
ALSO MUST be Divinely
Inspired. They must BOTH occupy the same state of
Grace. It
is rare
that they are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Win
to
Missionaries <<•
The
problem:
The problem
and what you
don’t get is that claiming that Satan is behind
the testimonials of other religions/spiritual practices DOES NOT erase
or
invalidate them. You seem to think that claiming that Satan
is
behind
them is some kind of a “magic eraser” that can
delete all
contrary evidence!
Not only is it a total cop out, but it’s insulting to others
as
well. How
would you feel and how would you like it if I used the “Satan
is
behind it”
explanation to explain away your evidence of Christian testimonials
too?>>
If
we think of
Satan as being that state of
incredible contraction of mind, then we can say that Satan is indeed
blinding
them from their own Divine Inner Truth.
Again..
karma. The "Christ" or pure
Consciousness, through
those MOST Pure Beings such as Jesus, wants all of humanity to realize
their
full potential.
By
choosing to give
"Satan" oppositional Power to "God" ...
people then in fact create that reality.
Now suddenly
God
becomes one of two powers ..... and the power play of
the
MIND
begins.
The fact
is .. there is
only ONE Power in this
Universe... and it is God, the ultimate reality.
There is
no
"other" but Supreme Consciousness anywhere... choosing to manifest as
ALL this. But the unawakened
dualistic
mind cannot deal with this so our sense of
separateness from
the
Divine, and from each other continues as a reality for
us.
The
minute you KNOW God (from
God's
perspective)
( and not just of God) , you KNOW , beyond
the finite minds' ability to know that there is no room for
a "Satan" in God's ultimate reality. ... just in our
own. Will "Satan" , or evil, be
REAL for you
if duality is all you know? Of course..
because the
finite
mind judges. It sees only good VS Bad where there
is ULTIMATELY only
total perfection everywhere.
It says.. this is
Good, but that is Bad.
That is all the play of the mind.
To a mind
who sets itself
ONLY on God, the reality
of Evil cannot enter there. But first that mind must RECOGNIZE what God
actually is. THAT is the problem.. and it is a HUGE
one.
When Grace
comes, of its
own accord, you get to
know.. there is only God's perfection
everywhere.
Until
then... Satan can ruin a perfectly nice day : (
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Missioaries
B.
Related
claim: Life without Christ is empty, and no
non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.
Win
1. My
response: I can agree with your argument
above to
a certain point. Based on my behavior and life patterns, it
can
be argued
that my life is empty to a point.
• The problem: The problem is
that even if we
conclude that
my life is empty and unsatisfying, it
doesn’t mean that the
Christian faith
is the answer that would satisfy my life,
...>>
FR ~ Your
point is
absolutely
valid However
it can only be readily known to these
Fundamentalist if
God decides to reveal to them that "HE" really does not care
HOW you Get it .. as long as you Get it.
Grace does
NOR differentiate
and to believe
it does is to not understand Grace OR GOD ( same thing) at
all.
IN
FACT... Grace
works BEST through a
pure and loving heart which is NOT bogged down with dogmatic belief
systems of
ANY religion. Throw it all out ..ALL but the LOVE, and you
will
most
likely discover the
That being
said .. the soul
still NEEDS to go
through different stages of evolving as a spiritual
entity
Picture for a moment Einstein explaining the Theory of
relativity
to a
chicken ... It may be true.. but it is certainly
wasted on
the
chicken. The finite mind is a lot like that
compared to
Truth Absolute... only with a MUCH bigger gap.
:0
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
So....
they are
where they NEED to be.. as are you
Win. The question becomes... Who is the better
off?????
That's easy... the ONE with the MOST LOVE in their hearts.
The
intellect runs a far distant second here.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
The
intellect LIKES to
"figure it all
out", to understand. But the Supreme ONE cannot BE
understood
by nor attained by the workings of the intellect.
The
minute one
starts arguing scripture etc... they have lost focus on what is really
important.
Scripture will REMAIN DEAD..misunderstood,
no
matter how valid it is... for a heart that cannot GIVE and RECEIVE with
the
recognition that ALL is Divine.
Learn to
LOVE and Supreme
Consciousness WILL take
care of everything else.
One who is
"Born Again"
walks through the
"
2.
Your
response: Your response to this would
be that if I had been truly born again of the Holy Spirit, I would have
been
happy, fulfilled and changed in a way that I could never deconvert.>>
Well, that
is sort of
true.. because to be Born
Again" is to see ones self thought God's eyes. At that point ALL
religions
are seen as ONE. There is nothing to "deconvert"
to... All is God.
Proclaiming ones self a Christian
and
saying the words "I accept Jesus" means nothing
until you
RECOGNIZE who YOU are. The Godhead. Otherwise
it is
just the
ego telling itself it is surrendering to its
own contracted
concept of
God.
I
was an Agnostic
and God bestowed IT"s
Grace on
me. Awakening me to my own
Divine Nature. which is the SAME in ALL. Until that moment I
had
no idea
who Jesus REALLY was. NOR who I was. Such knowledge
is truly
BEYOND
the mind's capacity to know, via the intellect alone.
btw..
Supreme Consciousness, That
which
is the ONE ... is far more than JUST "Creator". That is simply ONE of
its aspects. There are more... more than finite mind can even
begin to
fathom.
On
Surrender.
Jesus would tell you ... Whatever one THINKS
Surrender is...
once you have finally achieved THAT you see that it was NONE of the
things
you EVER
thought it was. That
moment is saved for God and God alone and cannot be talked about,
understood or
experienced by the mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3. My response: You can say that if you
wish, but I
was once
as fervent and zealous as you were, as were many
ex-Christians.
Let me
give you some examples. I was so zealous that I once almost
wrote
Bible
verses on the chalk board of my mom’s Buddhist study
center. In high
school, I even risked getting physically attacked by Muslim students,
by
attempting to witness to them. One time in an Art History
class,
after a
lecture on Christian history, I gave the teacher some Christian gospel
tracts
to inform him of the true story of Jesus, to which the next day, he
politely
handed them back to me saying that he wasn’t the right person
for
me to be
witnessing to. I felt embarrassed going out on a limb like
that,
but I
thought I was doing the right thing.>>
AAhhh
... consider
this.. IF
you felt embarrassed AT THAT POINT
IN TIME.. then you did not, for whatever reason, accept it as
fully
REAL.. even back then. Truth is never embarrassed.
Embarrassment
is the
realm of the impure ego.
Anyway..
their own
fervor
and zealousness is their own karma playing
out. You
had your
karma, and they have theirs. The point is to get beyond all
that
and
simply learn to come from a place of Love... respecting the idea that
God may
indeed have a number of surprises in store for us on this
long
journey
home.... to a place we NEVER left :)
Bottom line here
is.. Do
not judge any of it... Why should you ? God
doesn't.
We are
all simply living God's play. We are NOT in charge here. God
is. So just practice loving.... in every moment see
how you
might
add LOVE to that moment and you WILL change that experience for the
better.
This earth
plane is the
classroom for our
souls. God is NOT some harsh taskmaster , it is our
own
minds that
beat on us. Divine Consciousness simply Loves. and
the
interactive
ASPECT of that Divine Love guides and gives us what
we
need... which
is rarely what we THINK we want. :(
We should
learn to
listen for that inner voice which is always with all of us, forsaking
none. It is we who forsake by not loving.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
•
Problem # 2: Many
non-Christians who don’t share your beliefs, do claim and do
have
generally
happy and fulfilling lives. Though you don’t
believe them
and deny it,
that does not make these other testimonials untrue or erase
them.>>
FR
~ Well
think about itWinston
.. What does
it matter if they cannot
yet recognize for
themselves,
that another
is already walking in the full Grace of God, bathed in the Bliss
of
Divine Unconditional love WITHOUT the need for
religion?
That
is for the Awakened to KNOW and the unawakened
to find out.
If
one's religion can
teach them about
conditional love, fine, that's a good start,
but more
often
than not religion sadly teaches fear .. the very thing that holds us in
bondage!
You note I
said without the
need for religion,
but I did not say.. without
the need for GRACE. Grace
is
essential, but Grace has little if nothing to do
with
religion.. it
has everything to do with the purity of one's own "heart"
and
God's willingness to capture our hearts and awaken us to The
Supreme
Reality within.... That You and God are ONE.
This is
UNLIMITED
Compassion. This is how God
really works.
For
those who believe God
favors their approach over others of pure
heart ...
they have an amazing surprise in store.
Wait until
they see
that Agnostics,Jews,
Moslems, Buddhists,
Hindus, Jains,
etc. even Atheists have
found a way to jump into
the Heart of God.. ahead of them!!! ..... Ohh
that moment will be SO humbling...and they will know. Not
"in"
time.. but Outside of Time. Where all TRUE Knowing takes
place.
C.
Related
claim: Even if I got all the things I want
in this world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would
leave me empty.
1. My response: I only agree with that
partially. I
honestly feel that if I got all the things I wanted in life, I would be
much
happier than I am now. Of course, I wouldn’t be
perfectly
happy 24 hours
a day, for life is not like that and is cyclical in nature.
But
the
bottom line is that I would be MUCH happier in general if I got what I
wanted
in life, than if I didn’t.>>
Your bottom
line unfortunately is totally NOT So.
To
get
what we WANT in this life is an incredible curse.
Each life
is designed to give us
exactly the experiences we need in order
to Grow
spiritually. The
GOAL here is to be not just "happy" but to be in total Supreme
BLISS.. all the time. You have not even glimpsed
this State
yet, or
you would not be foolish enough to make such a statement.
In
spiritual terms here... you are "selling
your soul for a HOT DOG!."
When one finally is able to 'TOUCH THE FACE OF GOD' .. they KNOW that everything in
this mundane world is like a hell in
comparison. "Stuff"
just distracts us from the real goal and becomes a burden. It
is
only
when we let EVERYTHING GO.. that we RECEIVE
everything. We
become
the JOY. Only silly words...until you GET there.
Even
great wealth
does not protect one from
the horrors of the mind. and where there is great wealth and
no
Knowledge
of the source of that wealth HELL is soon to follow.
You
need to think
LONG TERM here. This
single life is like a half hour sit com to God. You
have experienced
millions of life times.. in God's infinite play . and here
you
are
now. Standing on the Brink of Knowing the SOURCE of all
Wealth. To chose the "toys" over the Source
of
those "toys" is to be in total ignorance.
As a great Saint
often said... I give them
what they want.. until they WANT what I have to
Give.
Finally they
figure it out.. but it can be a painful journey, until they LEARN to
drop all
desires but the desire of the Source of all. That
is the
supreme
treasure. meanwhile humans run around picking up lead, unable to
perceive the
gold within themselves.
Everything
here is a trick of the mind.... and runs the opposite of what
we
THINK it
should be. By giving we receive. But we must
Give with
the
understanding that we are giving it to "God",
freely
and with a pure heart. If we are attached to the fruits of
our
labor..
there is no harvest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
II. Huge assumptions you have regarding Salvation
and the
Bible
which divide us
A. All people are wicked sinners and destined to spend an
eternity in
hell unless they receive Christ as their Savior.>>
FR ~That
is their reality
because they are tasting
their own karma. No words will change them but God's Transcendent
wisdom.
Missionaries
<<
B.
The Bible is the
complete infallible inerrant word of
God.>>
FR ~ A box
of Kellogg's
Corn Flakes is the
infallible inerrant word of God... Seriously ... for those who have the
eyes to
RECOGNIZE the DIVINE manifesting AS that Box of
Cereal.
And the
Word WAS God.. and that WORD
manifests CONSTANTLY.... as THIS Universe.
It's not
about the Bible,
or any other True
Scripture .. it is about our ability to see God as this
entire
universe. If God chooses to hide.. we
don't stand a
chance.
IF
God choses
to manifest as a ketchup bottle, and then reveal ITs
SELF to some one as that Ketchup
bottle... I guarantee you they WILL be worshiping that Ketchup
Bottle AND.. they would not be
wrong. It is
all about RECOGNITION.
That Roman
soldier only
nailed Jesus' feet because
there was NO
RECOGNITION.
He
would have gladly died on the spot KNOWING he had touched the FEET of
God. Grace Graces those who recognize. At that
point one
KNOWS there is no Death but dying into one's own Supreme SELF.
Everything
comes FROM
God.. AND remains
God. But the veil of ignorance falls and we cannot know
what anything is.. not even.. ourselves.
C. A is true because of B (e.g. “The Bible says
so….”) and everything
that doesn’t fit in with the two assumptions above is false
and/or of Satan.
1. My response: These assumptions lie at
the core
root that
divide us, and why we do not see eye to eye. I think you two
would agree
on that too. Please note the following objections.....
Win. they
cannot.
Their own Karma blocks
them. Only God can reveal Truth. Your mundane words, as mine
also, can
only fall on deaf ears, and generally irritate. Just let them
be
and
start working on yourself.
They read the Bible
without Grace. They really have no choice.. at this point in
time.
You might
consider that
they are sent as a
gift ... so that you can contemplate where you were and where
you
might
be going. Are you making the same mistakes as in the past,
just
in a
different arena? You were sooo
sure then,
and you are sooo
sure
now. Contemplate
that. God is ALWAYS sending us hints, but we need to learn to
pick up on
those hints... or continue to suffer.
• Problem # 3: What
you and other
Christians like you
fail to understand and realize about assumption C is that:
JUST
BECAUSE
THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING DOESN’T MEAN IT’S
TRUE!
>>
OR ..
that one
actually
even UNDERSTANDS the extremely subtle nuances behind the words, .....
understanding that ONLY Grace can give. That
one THINKS they
understand is nothing but a trick of the finite mind. True
Revelation is
far different than thinking or analyzing something. It is God
allowing
your mind to expand beyond its normal boundaries and showing you
directly.
When people ask me
do I honor Jesus as The
ONE I say.. yes, absolutely. Then
I go on to tell
them
that I also honor Krishna as The ONE, Buddha as The ONE, Allah, ATMAN,
Shiva,
Brahma, ... and so on and so on... there is a sacred chant that lists
1,000
names for The Supreme Divine
ONE. They are
ALL
names for the ONE who exists AS all names and also BEYOND all
names.
It does
not matter if
someone hands you WATER or
AGUA, your thirst is quenched, your life is saved.
You on
the other
hand Winston are trying to drink sand.. and you will die choking on it.
~ ~
~
BTW For
those who think I lessen
the importance of Jesus by equating Him with BEings
such as Krishna or the Buddha, themselves miss the true
Greatness
of
Jesus. Quite to the
contrary..
Jesus was
the Living Christ .. which is ALL.. excluding NONE.
I
AM the One
~ references
Jesus'
Win to
Missionaries.
. <<
You
present zero evidence that there is a Judgment
Day that everyone who ever lived will stand before, where those who
accepted
Christ will enter into heaven while those who didn’t will be
thrown in
hell. ...>>
Faith's
comment:
Heaven
and Hell are as "real" as any other plane of Consciousness.
No
more or no LESS than this world we are experiencing right
now. We
experience everything within the mind, Mind being the creative tool of
God. Mind has the power to
throw us into
the most
horrid of hells or the sweetest heaven depending on how we chose to
THINK ,and
the karma we create by following those thoughts with actions.
If we experience a thing
then that
"thing"
becomes our reality. This is why Yogis
practice all the
time to
control the mind... to go beyond it to True Bliss which never leaves
one.. no
matter what the outer play may be.
Jesus
was the
consummate Yogi. He did
NOT "suffer" on the Cross. He simply witnessed
himself
there and continued to bless all around him.
There was
no sacrifice
there. Most Christians
totally miss the greatness of Jesus AND his true purpose. Oh
well.
It is their karma. they need to go through persecution, whatever,
so they
design a God that addresses that issue. Luckily that karma
ends
eventually. Then what? It depends on how open one's heart is.
AM I looking for
acceptance
here? Not really. That comes later.. in
God's time.
Just
sharing in
the hopes that some may
have the ears to hear. God works in VERY mysterious ways.
But without Grace, nothing.
Peace, FR
Note: In
another post below, FaithRada
also
comments on the
discussion I had with the two missionary friends.
FaithRada@aol.com
writes:
Missionaries:
Everyone is empty deep down inside with Christ, for only he could fill
that human
emptiness that we all have.
Me: <<
But I know many people who are happy and
fulfilled in
other beliefs and religions.>>
FaithRada:
Question
to Win ... What does The"Christ" have
to do with beliefs and/or religions?
Just what do you THINK The Christ is?
These Missionaries are no doubt a bit
deluded (me be kind
:P )
... in
believing that their religion alone has
access to The
Christ..
but people do get deluded from time to time.. oh well, it's
all
part of
the Play. They will figure it out eventually,
though probably
not in
this current lifetime.
Nonetheless
there is some truth to
what
they say, Even though
they
themselves don't quite get it.
The
Christ or PURE
Consciousness which IS The Divine Reality, IS essential if one wants to
access
one's ultimate fulfillment. the
$50,000 question is..... What IS one's ultimate
fulfillment?
Heaven? NOOOOOO
Godhood?
YESSSSSSSS
Would
they
like to blast me and those
like me as some kind of mad satanic
heretics? Most
likely. Yet I fully embrace Jesus' highest
teachings.
Thomas
understood Jesus completely... Peter did not. Peter's anger,arrogance
and jealousy blocked the highest Truth from his own ears.
Likewise they
miss the message but even worse.. they actually BELIEVE they understand.
To
attain
the ultimate awareness of who we are
we must not only meet The Christ we must
RECOGNIZE
who/what The
Christ IS.... Everything!
To
those
still trapped in duality ... they see God
as dealing with an "oppositional" force...(God vs
Satan... whatever) but
when one rises to the NON Dual
perspective
they understand that "God" or The "Christ", or Perfect
ONE .... has NO opposition... since the Perfect ONE
is all
that
IS. As long as one thinks that duality
... Good VS
Evil is
the ULTIMATE Realty.. they DO NOT KNOW
The Christ. They have
not been
awakened by Grace, and think that Heaven is the highest Goal.
It
is not.
The
Christ does not
care about this or that
religion or belief system, those are just constructs of the human
mind. The
Christ ONLY cares about Love.
The
Christ , or Perfect Consciousness, IS Love AND is also the source of
MIND ..
and everything else.. and until one learns, via Grace,
to
recognize that "Christ" within, they will NEVER know the
ultimate "Supreme Love" . There is no other
way.
Grace chooses freely whom it will awaken and whom it will pass by.
Those with
loving hearts draw Grace to them much more easily.. think of metal near
a
magnet... but even murderers and thieves get lucky at times :
) The
odds just are not near as good. People in prison have
received
Divine Shaktipat,
while the pope sits in
@@@@@@@@
When Jesus said.... I AM The ONE.. this is the ONE he was referencing..
not his
temporary physical form of water and a few minerals... but The Christ
Consciousness within... His essence, his BEingness,
which
has no beginning and no end, but simply IS and IS not. This
same
all
pervasive Christ exists, usually
QUITE well
concealed,
in all "hearts" and THIS was the main
message Jesus
came to impart... to those who were ready to
hear.
The
"Christ" could assume
a physical form and stand on a
street corner in Time Square... and a million
people might
walk right
by Him/Her and
maybe... one out of
that million would be
able to recognize them AS the Living
Christ.
Everyone else would probably just think they were witnessing
a normal person ... while the fortunate
soul falls
weeping in
full Recognition at the feet of
God. Think
it has
not happened? Think again. Think
it could not
happen to
you? Don't be soooo
sure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The
vehicle for the transmission of this knowledge is
GRACE. (The
active
dynamic, and
tangible energy of The Christ... (in Sanskrit - Shakti)
Jesus' form was a
Grace Bestowing Vehicle of The One Christ
Consciousness . That there
were/are other pure
vehicles
becomes obvious once Grace descends and fully
awakens an
individual. Again.. The Christ is impartial and
does not
judge. It matters not if you are an Atheist or a Hindu, or a
Catholic or someone from New
Jersey. :P
When
Grace strikes .. you are NEVER the same again... and you cannot explain
what
happened ........ well you can, but everyone (except
those
awakened
by Grace themselves)
will think you have lost your mind.
The
Good news is.. you could not care less. : )
So in one sense your Missionary friends
are right....
they
just don't know HOW right. You
could lose
everything,
the world could blow up tomorrow.. but if you KNOW The Christ, The
Supreme REality,
then you will
remain in a state of
incomparable inner peace and Divine Bliss ... a state that is
never
diminished by what is going on in the outer play of this world.
When
The Christ is finally recognized ... in that moment all
belief and
disbelief falls away.... and one
KNOWS. This is
NOT a
knowing of the subjective mind.. but a Transcendent KNOWING ... where
one
enters the Mind of God. To touch that
State, even for
a
moment is enough to transform one forever.... because it is a TIMELESS
moment. God exists in and outside of Time.
God/Christ/Supreme
Consciousness creates Time out of It's own SELF.
For
those who have Gnosis or True Knowledge (not too many) they do not
limit
the concept of The Christ to any belief system, or
some
religious
perspective. What Christianity is referencing when they say Christ
...
whether they realize it or not ... is The ONE Pure All
pervasive
Consciousness .... or ATMAN, or Supreme SELF of
ALL. It
does
become a word problem because without the direct
Transcendent
'Experience' there is no real understanding.
Many attach
a limited meaning to it and stay with that meaning..... until something
comes
along to EXPAND that meaning... that something... is
GRACE.
Some people might say..... I
love
God but not Allah or Jehovah
That's like saying... I love water but not
aqua. In
their ignorance they perceive a difference, but there is no
difference. Humans are
programmed to
see differences, where no differences actually
exist.
Grace lifts the veil that creates the illusion of difference, even as
it lets
one enjoy the benefits of perceived differences.
Are
you ready for this Win ??? You ARE The Christ.
The caveat here is .. you do not yet
really KNOW who YOU
are. So.. BEWARE the
ego here..... There
is an
incredibly SUBTLE but
HUGE distinction between the limited
i
(Winston) and
the Supreme
~ I
~
Winston's
essential Christ Nature.
To say
i
Winston am The Christ is totally different
than
saying
I
Winston
am The
Christ. Only a fool
would say the
first,
and only a fully awakened BEing
can know the
latter.
To
recognize yourself as The Christ you MUST be ABLE to recognize this
whole
CREATION ...everyone AND everything in it AS The Christ......
Otherwise one is a deluded fool who is still very far
from Truth
Absolute. Grace has yet to descend on them.
If
you never do anything else in your entire life.. contemplate those last
two
paragraphs and ASK The Christ to reveal their hidden meaning.. This
knowledge
is worth MORE than all the Gold in all the world.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eventually,
through Grace, the subtle inner longing really heats
up and
the real
Inner Journey begins.
All human desire for
Wealth,
Fame, Power, Hot Chics, bigger
and
better thrills, etc. ... is NOTHING but an outer expression
of
the
LONGING to KNOW our True
inner SELF or Christ
Consciousness, but
this longing is typically misdirected toward the outer or physical
realm.. AND
will NEVER be satisfied there.
When we are looking for a mate we are looking for someone/something
outside of
ourselves to COMPLETE ourselves... not realizing that the Christ within
us is
all we need to be complete. We already ARE Complete
in every
way, We NEED nothing because we ARE Everything, yet
we
cannot see
this.
Think
about it....
People are always chasing
after outer happiness. They try
everything. They
THINK
the right car or a bigger house, or a "hotter' chic or a prestigious
job will do the trick. But as
soon as they
acquire their
perceive "object of happiness"...
the DESIRE for
something more pops right back up.... and on and on it goes.
All
the time we hear about people with fame
and great wealth living inner lives of
quiet desperation. Often these people
tragically turn
to drugs
or endless sexual escapades,or
even
become
"workaholics" in an effort to quiet the inner pain
and
emptiness.... to no avail. These activities give such
fleeting
and
shallow gratification, had they known to turn to The Christ within..
they would
have attained everything... True Bliss. Remember.. we are NOT
talking
about religion or belief here... but simply following one's still,
quiet voice
within.
If
you KNEW The Christ within Win, you would not
feel the need to go searching around
To
get to this point we DO have to do something
though.... We need to SEEK, and if we are lucky enough to find .. then
we
LISTEN and do The Christ's bidding... whatever that may be. It
involves
incredible surrender .. surrender of one's impure ego to something
greater than
its SELF. THIS is the One True Death that Jesus and
All the
Great
Grace Bestowers
speak
of. By dying
into Supreme Consciousness one BECOMES THAT. It is
the only
way. It is where you came from and where you are going back
too.
How long the Journey takes... is ultimately up to you.
There
is only one thing in this universe that CAN bring True
and LASTING happiness,
contentment
and peace of mind and THAT is the Formless
Supreme ONE. Though
IT exists beyond all names and forms, .....still, it has
chosen
to become
ALL names and ALL Forms. It conceals its SELF very
well,
but from
time to time it goes give us a small glimpse... for those who have some
awareness.. they CAN detect it. It can be a small bird
sitting on
a
branch ... just watching you... and you KNOW. It could be a
leaf, floating gently to the ground... and you KNOW.
Or...
it could be an old beggar woman with a twinkle in her eye... and you
KNOW .. If
you are aware enough and spiritually awake enough to see.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Missionaries: << They are only pretending to be
happy and
fulfilled. Without Christ, there is no true inner joy, peace,
or
fulfillment.>>
I
don't think "Pretend" is really
the most appropriate word
here. Most may actually believe
that they ARE happy and fulfilled since MOST people have no
idea
what real Divine Bliss even looks/feels like. The
idea of
happiness
and fulfillment is quite
subjective after all.
Most ASSUME what is being referenced here
is some simple basic human emotion... but what
is REALLY
being
referenced is something far far deeper
than
that. In fact, I strongly suspect
that these
Missionaries have only a tiny
inkling of an idea of
what the
State of
Me: For example, the movie star Richard Gere
claims
to be happy in his Buddhist beliefs.
Missionaries: << Richard Gere
is not truly
happy. He just tells everyone that to keep up his
image.>>
HA
HA Ha Ha
Haaaaaa ohh That would be
precious. Kinda
sad, but
precious. THIS is called
"Mirroring" where one projects their own beliefs on to
another.
The
truth is ..
they obviously would have no idea how happy Richard Gere
is or if he even gives a flying F*$& what anyone
thinks about
him.
The
missionary's dilema:
To
admit to even the possibility of Mr. Gere's
TRUE Happiness would indicate that there really
IS another route to The "Christ" besides their own
...
GASP .... and so they MUST
deny any possibility of Mr. Gere's attainment.
Me: I also know and can name many former Christians who were
unhappy or
empty in their faith, and found fulfillment and meaning in other
religions or
belief systems, such as Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, Islam, Hinduism, Wiccan,
New Age, or even
Atheism/Agnosticism.
Many of them have emailed me to share their stories before, and my site
has
links to forums and support group sites dedicated to them.
Missionaries: Then they were never true Christians to begin
with.
No one who is truly “born again” would fall away
permanently. They may
have thought that they were truly born again, but were
mistaken.
Nothing
compares with being born again and having a relationship with Christ,
which is
completely satisfying.
Define
Permanently
How many lifetimes would one have to
experience before they were no longer considered ... NOT a True
Christian????
Plus...
there are different levels of relationships.
Peter may
have had a relationship with Jesus BUT, it was not the same level of
Thomas'
relationship with Jesus. One did not have Gnosis,
and the
other
did.
Me: But many of these were honest devout Bible thumpers who
gave
their
whole lives for their faith, evangelizing all along the way, just like
you!
Missionaries: Again, not all who claim to be Christians
are. Having
a mere intellectual belief in Jesus doesn’t make one born
again. It
requires God to open up their eyes, and their complete surrender to
him. A
lot of people who think they are saved, are not.
Remember that
Jesus said that on Judgment Day, many will come to him and claim to be
his
followers, but he will say that he never knew them, and throw them
aside.
>>
FR
... Note the irony here
....<< A lot of
people who think they are saved, are not>> They
themselves, are IN
this Group.
<<(end of mock dialogue example)
Now, you see how extremely circular this got? Those two
missionaries
rationalized away whatever didn’t fit in with their beliefs
and
theology.
Rather than updating their beliefs to fit the facts, they twisted and
adjusted
the facts around their beliefs, sometimes even denying them
altogether. Essentially, they ignored what proved
them
wrong.
Do you really think an honest belief system would require a complete
ignoring
of evidence against it like that? >>
You
expected something else? :0
THAT
dear
Winston IS the human condition.
Anyway.... a belief system, even an "honest" one... is still nothing
but belief. It is NOT even
subjective
knowing
of the
mind , Never mind
Transcendent KNOWING .. That which is essential
to
Recognize
The "Christ".
Where REAL faith can help
lead one to
Gnosis or objective Knowing, blind
faith, such as they display
leads
away from The Christ. They are a good example of what Jesus
actually
warned against.. sort of ironic don't you think?.
Most,
like these fellows could not recognize
The Christ if He/She
walked
up and said
"Hi" to them. I've seen it go both
ways. It
IS quite .... entertaining.
Peace, Faith
~ ~ ~
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