Appendix A: My Debate with Two Christian Missionaries, debunking Christian fundamentalist apologetic evangelist arguments

Appendix A: My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries

Note: In response to some long discussions I had with two Christian missionary friends, I wrote up the following summary outline response to them, that stated their claims, my responses and objections, in an attempt to narrow down our discussion to the bottom line impasse points. If you find it useful, you may print it out to show other Christians who may be preaching to you as well, so they get the idea of the bottom line issues they can’t answer.

Below the outline is a response by FaithRada, a fascinating mystic on my list whose comments are guaranteed to stretch your mind to new heights you didn’t know were possible!

My Summary Response to Two Christian Missionaries

(their names removed at their request)

By Vinstonas

Purpose: The reason I feel compelled to write this outline summary and response of our discussions because 1) I constantly get interrupted during my presentation to you two, to the point that I cannot even complete one point or argument among several that I usually have. Therefore I hope this outline will lay out my response and the problems I see to your claims point by point. 2) I hope that this outline will help us all see the big picture, and identify the core root of our differences, so we do not continue in endless fruitless debate. This outline below details 2 major areas that we’ve been discussing, 1) the testimonials of changed lives of born again Christians, and 2) huge assumptions regarding Salvation and the Bible.

Conflict of purpose of our discussion: Let me note first that one main problem I have identified in our discussions is we have a conflict of purpose. I get the impression that this is not an open discussion where we listen to each other’s arguments and ideas, and respond to them. You two do not seem interested in hearing or considering my arguments and views. I get the impression that to you, our whole discussion is all about this “truth” from the Bible, and whether I am willing to come to terms with it. You do not seem to be willing to consider that you may be wrong or that I may be correct, nor do you wish to hear and examine my reasons, arguments, and evidence. This represents a conflict of purpose, motive, perception, and mentality between us in our discussions.

I. Your claims vs. my responses and objections

A. Your claim: Testimony of changed lives – You argue that the many wonderful beautiful inspiring testimonials of changed lives of born again Christians proves the validity of their faith.

1. My response: I agree with you that many such cases exist without a doubt. I was such a case too. I also agree that there is some supernatural power behind these changed lives, answered prayers, and miracles. However, you don’t seem to understand or acknowledge the following.

· Problem # 1: The first problem is that these cases do automatically mean that all the doctrines of your faith and the Bible are all true. Nor do they erase all other similar testimonials of other religions contrary to your own.

· Problem # 2: The second problem is that I could EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and testimonials from other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups, Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans, even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc. However, just because those testimonials are true and sincere does not mean each of those belief systems and practices are right for everyone. The same goes for your faith too.

2. Your response: Your response to the above is that these same testimonials of changed lives in other religions/belief systems mean nothing if they are not based on the Bible, and that Satan could be behind them because he can appear as an angel of light and is the father of lies.

· The problem: The problem and what you don’t get is that claiming that Satan is behind the testimonials of other religions/spiritual practices DOES NOT erase or invalidate them. You seem to think that claiming that Satan is behind them is some kind of a “magic eraser” that can delete all contrary evidence! Not only is it a total cop out, but it’s insulting to others as well. How would you feel and how would you like it if I used the “Satan is behind it” explanation to explain away your evidence of Christian testimonials too?

B. Related claim: Life without Christ is empty, and no non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.

1. My response: I can agree with your argument above to a certain point. Based on my behavior and life patterns, it can be argued that my life is empty to a point.

· Problem # 1: The problem is that even if we conclude that my life is empty and unsatisfying, it doesn’t mean that the Christian faith is the answer that would satisfy my life, especially since I have tried it for years before. Though you disagree, the fact is that no one religion or belief system is right for everyone. I feel that due to my metaphysical views, other religions and spiritual practices are more suited for me. I have too many problems with Christian doctrine, theology, mentality, etc. In fact, I would even find more fulfillment and meaning in Buddhism than Christianity, as it makes far more sense and is far less controversial.

2. Your response: Your response to this would be that if I had been truly born again of the Holy Spirit, I would have been happy, fulfilled and changed in a way that I could never deconvert.

3. My response: You can say that if you wish, but I was once as fervent and zealous as you were, as were many ex-Christians. Let me give you some examples. I was so zealous that I once almost wrote Bible verses on the chalk board of my mom’s Buddhist study center. In high school, I even risked getting physically attacked by Muslim students, by attempting to witness to them. One time in an Art History class, after a lecture on Christian history, I gave the teacher some Christian gospel tracts to inform him of the true story of Jesus, to which the next day, he politely handed them back to me saying that he wasn’t the right person for me to be witnessing to. I felt embarrassed going out on a limb like that, but I thought I was doing the right thing.

· Problem # 2: Many non-Christians who don’t share your beliefs, do claim and do have generally happy and fulfilling lives. Though you don’t believe them and deny it, that does not make these other testimonials untrue or erase them.

· Problem # 3: Many many former Christians who shared your beliefs (some fervently too) felt empty, incomplete, unhappy, and restless in your faith, thus deconverted and went to other belief systems. Your only defense is to claim that they were never real Christians in the first place, but deep down you know that is a TOTAL COP OUT. Every zealot and fanatic says the same thing about the deconverts of their beliefs. It’s nothing new.

C. Related claim: Even if I got all the things I want in this world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would leave me empty.

1. My response: I only agree with that partially. I honestly feel that if I got all the things I wanted in life, I would be much happier than I am now. Of course, I wouldn’t be perfectly happy 24 hours a day, for life is not like that and is cyclical in nature. But the bottom line is that I would be MUCH happier in general if I got what I wanted in life, than if I didn’t.

II. Huge assumptions you have regarding Salvation and the Bible which divide us

A. All people are wicked sinners and destined to spend an eternity in hell unless they receive Christ as their Savior.

B. The Bible is the complete infallible inerrant word of God.

C. A is true because of B (e.g. “The Bible says so….”) and everything that doesn’t fit in with the two assumptions above is false and/or of Satan.

1. My response: These assumptions lie at the core root that divide us, and why we do not see eye to eye. I think you two would agree on that too. Please note the following objections.

· Problem # 1: The first problem here is that I don’t share these assumptions that you have, though you seem to expect that I ought to.

· Problem # 2: These assumptions you have above are not only completely circular in nature, but are VERY VERY EXTREME CLAIMS. To go around proclaiming to others that if they don’t believe in your gospel then they will go to a literal eternal neverending state of torment is perhaps the most extreme claim in the world. Of course such a claim would result in severe counterattacks, backlash and controversy from those who disagree! What did you expect? The problem is that you cannot realistically expect rational intelligent sane people to believe such extreme claims just because you can point to some verses in the Bible that say so!

· Problem # 3: What you and other Christians like you fail to understand and realize about assumption C is that: JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING DOESN’T MEAN IT’S TRUE! That is the BOTTOM LINE in all this discussion/debate. Showing people Bible verses to support assumptions A and B do not prove anything. Text and words printed in a book do not constitute proof. You know that. Now and throughout history, millions of books have been written, but that doesn’t mean that everything in them is true! You know that, so why not apply it to your beliefs too?

· Problem # 4: In regards to B, here’s the big shocker. What followers of Christian fundamentalists don’t know and never realize is: NOWHERE in the Bible does it claim to be God’s word. And NOWHERE in the Bible does it claim to be infallible. The doctrine of Biblical inspiration and infallibility was made up by Christian fundamentalists to create an artificial foundation for their faith. Fundamentalists love to cite 2 Timothy 3:16; however, the “Scriptures” referred to in that verse refer to the Old Testament, and the term “inspiration” does not mean “word of God” either. (i.e. if a tree inspires me to write a poem about it, is that poem my words or the tree’s words?) In any case, NOWHERE in the Bible does it claim that all 66 books in it are infallible. Nowhere. Period. That’s something Christians say, not the Bible or God. In fact, many of the authors of the Bible had no idea that their books would be canonized into an “infallible word of God” book. Even in Paul’s epistles, he made it clear that he was writing personal letters, not dictating whatever God was telling him to write down. He even says literally in three verses in his epistles that these are his words, and not God’s! (1 Corinthians 7:12, 7:25, 2 Corinthians 11:17) Furthermore, even if the Bible did claim to be God’s word or infallible, that wouldn’t make it so either. I could take any of the millions of books in the world, and write in somewhere, “This book is the word of God. It is infallible.” But would that make it so?

· Problem # 5: Finding unique and special things about the Bible that make it stand out doesn’t make it the infallible word of God. Regarding prophecy fulfillment for example, heck, I could find examples of prophecy fulfillment in Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings book series. And there are also prophecy fulfillment examples in Homer’s work The Iliad (e.g. the prophecy that the first soldier from the Greek invasion fleet to set afoot on Troy soil would be killed, came true according to the story). I could even find prophecy fulfillment in the modern Harry Potter books too. But that doesn’t make these books the infallible divinely inspired word of God! Nor would it mean that our eternal destiny hangs on what they say! I could find many special unique things about many books, religious and non-religious, that the Bible doesn’t have, but would that prove that they are all true and the Bible false? No, but you essentially do just that. Also, it’s been proven that there are many Bible prophecies that never came true. (See http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/prophecies.html?200524#tyre#tyre) But you never take that into account of course. And there are many false, imaginary prophecy fulfillments too, which were fabricated, twisted, and manipulated to serve an agenda. (See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html)

· Problem # 6: Though you fervently believe in assumption A, you simply CAN’T PROVE OR DEMONSTRATE IT. You present zero evidence that there is a Judgment Day that everyone who ever lived will stand before, where those who accepted Christ will enter into heaven while those who didn’t will be thrown in hell. All you present are words and text in a book. Yet you expect people to believe it, take it seriously, and change their lives for it! In effect, this extreme claim simply can’t be proven nor disproven either. And pointing to text in a book doesn’t prove it either. That’s all we can say. The problem is, you expect rational sane people to simply believe it, because “the Bible says so”. That is totally unrealistic. You can’t expect people to change their lives for this assumption either, just in case it might be true, because what about all the other extreme claims out there? Should we all change our lives for them too, just in case they “might” be true?

Conclusion

Based on the above summary outline of your claims, my responses, objections, and identification of core problems, I conclude that the core problems I described are unanswerable and mark an impasse point in our discussions, as you two would most likely repeat the same claims in response to them. Though both of your are extremely fervent in your beliefs, I hope you can open your minds to try to understand my objections. In addition to the arguments and objections I present above, there are many more in the article on my site refuting the major Christian Evangelical arguments (www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunking_Christians/Contents.htm). Thank you for your time and attention to my summary and response outline.

Note: Feel free to share your comments and feedback about this article in the guestbook or forum.

In response to the summary response outline above, an out-of-this-world mystic on my list named FaithRada wrote this eloquent, impressive, and enlightening analysis of them and the meaning of true “Christ Consciousness”. It’s definitely worth reading and will stretch your mind to new heights!

In a message dated 2/23/2005 12:21:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, WWu777 writes:

I get the impression that this is not an open discussion where we listen to each other’s arguments and ideas, and respond to them. You two do not seem interested in hearing or considering my arguments and views. I get the impression that to you, our whole discussion is all about this “truth” from the Bible, and whether I am willing to come to terms with it. You do not seem to be willing to consider that you may be wrong or that I may be correct, nor do you wish to hear and examine my reasons, arguments, and evidence. >>

Having been in this type of "deadlock" many times I finally began to look deeper .. into why some ARE so "deadlocked" in their particular chosen "Beliefs" in the first place.. So I asked "God" /. Higher Self -and this is what I got back... KARMA . People are born into or seek out whatever "religion" or belief system is needed to support one's current karma.

So.. it is not as though they have a "choice" per say.... they are literally STUCK in that belief system until their karma is done there. They WILL find out later that their "mission" was not about others.. but about themselves.

Were they able to approach others with love and respect? With humility? OR... did they have to be "RIGHT" and become arrogant in their "supposed" knowledge? Judging themselves as right and the others as wrong?

I have met Christians that were so sweet and loving.. who really tried to align with the inner Love that Jesus spoke of, and I have also met the ones who felt that their own intellectual understanding of the scriptures was "where it was at".... Ironically "God", Supreme Consciousness, does not even CARE what belief system one holds AS LONG AS ONE HAS A LOVING NATURE.

Eventually, (though probably not in this life) they will understand what it means to be REALLY "Born Again". Physical death does not bring this kind of knowledge.

*** Some really do know.. but it is NOT a normal knowing of the mind, it is something MUCH more. MOST are only talking about a surface shift, which is fine in its own right .. but NOT the ultimate KNOWING. To be truly BORN Again means to "die into" the Ultimate Reality.. to recognize that there is nothing here BUT God... and we are ALL THAT, (though in a contracted mode) This is the ONE death Jesus references and not the physical death.. which is not that big a deal, when you finally see what that is about.

Someone of a religious mind set.. (any religion, it does not matter) , who is not truly "Born Again" or, had their own dormant inner Divinity Fully Awakened by Grace, will hear this only as some blasphemous deranged statement.. not yet able to perceive what is actually being suggested here. It is NOT an intellectual knowing. If one THINKS they know.. they do not know. THINKing belongs to duality. It is a process of the finite mind. whereas "God" reveals IT's TOTAL SELF within the NON dual state.. beyond mind. To have that kind of Knowing one must BECOME one with THAT which is.

It is one thing to know there is (a) God... and that is wonderful to be sure, still, most people hold that ONLY as a belief. Yet, to many .... knowing there is God ... is what THEY mean by being "Born Again".. But ... it is quite another thing to know there is ONLY God.... everywhere... manifesting AS everything and everyone here. To have Jesus' knowledge.. to know YOU yourself ARE the Christ...and that there is ONLY The Christ (or Pure Consciousness) .... THAT is being FULLY Born Again. In that moment you REALIZE that you have never BEEN Born NOR do you EVER DIE. At that point you don't bother trying to change someone's religion because you see ALL Religions as your own SELF. Truly God does not care.. only people who still have some work to do really think the beliefs of others matters to God. But it DOES matter to us !, since it is our own limited minds that keep us from fully knowing God.. our own True SELF.

A true 'born again' would not say ANY religion or concept of God was wrong... they would only tell you that it is incomplete, as it must be to the finite mind.

Without Grace.. no shift. Jesus was not simply about heaven.. that was just an aside, for those not yet ready to really "Die" yet. Jesus' main purpose here,as with any who come in Christ Consciousness, was/is about becoming One with THAT.

Win, you could suggest that they seek out the living Christ... HERE AND NOW. It is manifest for those with the eyes to see. It has NEVER left us. It has always been closer to us than our own breath.

What one NEEDS is to have their own Divine inner energy awakened.. and then they can at least have a chance of understanding the Christ's words from the most pure perspective, with the blockages of finite mind removed. THAT is the power of Grace. But.. that takes incredibly good karma. (karma being a topic which is mostly misunderstood by the Western mind,and even many in the "Eastern" philosophies.)

In the Bible, "Thomas" had excellent karma.... Peter? ... he needed a little more work. His anger and his jealousy blocked the deeper meaning of Jesus' teachings from his mind and that is true for all humanity to this day to one degree or another.

Without LOVE ....born of humility and respect for the Divine, that exists within, and as all living beings (and also all inanimate objects), one may HEAR the words, but those words will not reveal their inner truth to them.

So.. if you listen to Peter's words with mundane ears.. you get ONLY what he got... (not enough to Die into The Supreme One totally.) if you listen to THOMAS .. the WAY Thomas listened.. then you get it all. For Peter ... Jesus became a religion. For Thomas ... he became One With Jesus, he achieved Godhood.

Think back on your own experiences with religion. You yourself were SO adamant at one point yes? BUT then, at some point you had a "shift"... you saw things differently.. WHY? Because.... that karma was done.

True, we then move on to different karma,.. but NOT until our current karma is done.

We may THINK we have free choice in these matters.. but not so, not *directly anyway In the same way .. you are going through your own karma right now by feeling the NEED to chase "bodies" around

Russia

... and until you start to do something differently, to create BETTER karma .. then you will remain stuck.. just as these Fundamentalists are now stuck in their own current mode. We have to experience our karma but remember , at this point you are continually making NEW karma which you chose to suffer or enjoy.

* ( free will is a very complex and esoteric topic. It is real yet it is not real)

Eventually one learns how to get off the roller coaster all together.. but apparently you are not ready for that yet. Sez La Vie.

Eventually they will evolve into a higher understanding.. but remember we ARE playing in eternity here. Supreme Consciousness has plenty of time to play out all the scenarios.

My suggestion? Just send them blessings and move on, because they really cannot "hear" you.

You could contemplate this though.. Most, if not all meetings are karmic in nature. So they may have something to offer you.. though it will probably NOT be what they think it is. You COULD use them as a "mirror" for your own way of being in the world right now. Different topic, different level.. but the same scenario at work. Everyone has something to teach us, if we can look deeply enough into it.

It is said that if we are continually experiencing the same kind of scenarios over and over again, it is because we have not yet learned that lesson. Once we DO learn, then that issue does not come back and we get to "move on". When you think about it, it sort of makes sense.

WIN <<
• The problem: The first problem is that these cases do automatically mean that all the doctrines of your faith and the Bible are all true. Nor do they erase all other similar testimonials of other religions contrary to your own.>>

FR ~ Seems only logical .. Until you see how one's karma can blocking them from that viewpoint right now.

• Problem # 2: The second problem is that I could EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and testimonials from other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups, Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans, even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc. However, just because those testimonials are true and sincere does not mean each of those belief systems and practices are right for everyone. The same goes for your faith too.
2. Your response: Your response to the above is that these same testimonials of changed lives in other religions/belief systems mean nothing if they are not based on the Bible, and that Satan could be behind them because he can appear as an angel of light and is the father of lies.>>

But again, remember.. they CANNOT yet accept what you suggest since their Karma is blocking them from what should be obvious.

When someone is working from Belief, or even from subjective knowing, as opposed to Transcendent Knowing, they will never fully grasp that there is a valid, albeit LIMITED view, to ALL perspectives.

Until we move INTO the MIND of God.. there can be no REAL Divine or transcendent Knowing,where Supreme Consciousness holds ALL perspectives as ITs own. Not judging any of it but simply enjoying that limited perspective.

One who is still contracted and has not entered the supreme "Mind of God" will only hear statements of Divine Knowledge as just some other mundane perspective of the mind.. and ASSUME the speaker is simply falling into their own trap and coming from subjective mind. But that may not be the case at all. They may have received Transcendent Knowledge. THIS is True revelation. This was the reality of the Transcendentalists such as Thoreau and Emerson and Alcott etc. NO one else can really understand them until they become ONE with THEM. It certainly IS baffling. .. but that is also a part of the Game God plays. As "HE" hides right in front of His own SELF.

Ultimately people HEAR from where THEY are, and not necessarily from the state where the speaker is. Evolution of soul is real ... the Good news is .... it's as long a journey as we chose it to be. The Bad news is..... it's as long a journey that we chose it to be.

Back to the point... it is foolish for anyone to THINK they can just read legitimate Divine Scripture from any True path and THINK they understand it. The writer MUST be Divinely inspired PLUS the READER ALSO MUST be Divinely Inspired. They must BOTH occupy the same state of Grace. It is rare that they are.

The problem and what you don’t get is that claiming that Satan is behind the testimonials of other religions/spiritual practices DOES NOT erase or invalidate them. You seem to think that claiming that Satan is behind them is some kind of a “magic eraser” that can delete all contrary evidence! Not only is it a total cop out, but it’s insulting to others as well. How would you feel and how would you like it if I used the “Satan is behind it” explanation to explain away your evidence of Christian testimonials too?>>

If we think of Satan as being that state of incredible contraction of mind, then we can say that Satan is indeed blinding them from their own Divine Inner Truth. Again.. karma. The "Christ" or pure Consciousness, through those MOST Pure Beings such as Jesus, wants all of humanity to realize their full potential.

By choosing to give "Satan" oppositional Power to "God" ... people then in fact create that reality. Now suddenly God becomes one of two powers ..... and the power play of the MIND begins.

The fact is .. there is only ONE Power in this Universe... and it is God, the ultimate reality. There is no "other" but Supreme Consciousness anywhere... choosing to manifest as ALL this. But the unawakened dualistic mind cannot deal with this so our sense of separateness from the Divine, and from each other continues as a reality for us.

The minute you KNOW God (from God's perspective) ( and not just of God) , you KNOW , beyond the finite minds' ability to know that there is no room for a "Satan" in God's ultimate reality. ... just in our own. Will "Satan" , or evil, be REAL for you if duality is all you know? Of course.. because the finite mind judges. It sees only good VS Bad where there is ULTIMATELY only total perfection everywhere.

To a mind who sets itself ONLY on God, the reality of Evil cannot enter there. But first that mind must RECOGNIZE what God actually is. THAT is the problem.. and it is a HUGE one.

When Grace comes, of its own accord, you get to know.. there is only God's perfection everywhere. Until then... Satan can ruin a perfectly nice day : (

B. Related claim: Life without Christ is empty, and no non-Christian is truly happy, no matter what they have in life.
Win
1. My response: I can agree with your argument above to a certain point. Based on my behavior and life patterns, it can be argued that my life is empty to a point.
• The problem: The problem is that even if we conclude that my life is empty and unsatisfying, it doesn’t mean that the Christian faith is the answer that would satisfy my life, ...>>

FR ~ Your point is absolutely valid However it can only be readily known to these Fundamentalist if God decides to reveal to them that "HE" really does not care HOW you Get it .. as long as you Get it.

Grace does NOR differentiate and to believe it does is to not understand Grace OR GOD ( same thing) at all.

IN FACT... Grace works BEST through a pure and loving heart which is NOT bogged down with dogmatic belief systems of ANY religion. Throw it all out ..ALL but the LOVE, and you will most likely discover the Inner Kingdom a whole lot faster. The Dark Night of the Soul is about Grace purging ALL our erroneous attachments to reality.

That being said .. the soul still NEEDS to go through different stages of evolving as a spiritual entity Picture for a moment Einstein explaining the Theory of relativity to a chicken ... It may be true.. but it is certainly wasted on the chicken. The finite mind is a lot like that compared to Truth Absolute... only with a MUCH bigger gap. :0

So.... they are where they NEED to be.. as are you Win. The question becomes... Who is the better off????? That's easy... the ONE with the MOST LOVE in their hearts. The intellect runs a far distant second here.

The intellect LIKES to "figure it all out", to understand. But the Supreme ONE cannot BE understood by nor attained by the workings of the intellect. The minute one starts arguing scripture etc... they have lost focus on what is really important. Scripture will REMAIN DEAD..misunderstood, no matter how valid it is... for a heart that cannot GIVE and RECEIVE with the recognition that ALL is Divine.

One who is "Born Again" walks through the "Valley of Death" with no fearand no doubt, .. for they understand fully that they have already died.. into LOVE.

2. Your response: Your response to this would be that if I had been truly born again of the Holy Spirit, I would have been happy, fulfilled and changed in a way that I could never deconvert.>>

Well, that is sort of true.. because to be Born Again" is to see ones self thought God's eyes. At that point ALL religions are seen as ONE. There is nothing to "deconvert" to... All is God. Proclaiming ones self a Christian and saying the words "I accept Jesus" means nothing until you RECOGNIZE who YOU are. The Godhead. Otherwise it is just the ego telling itself it is surrendering to its own contracted concept of God.

I was an Agnostic and God bestowed IT"s Grace on me. Awakening me to my own Divine Nature. which is the SAME in ALL. Until that moment I had no idea who Jesus REALLY was. NOR who I was. Such knowledge is truly BEYOND the mind's capacity to know, via the intellect alone.

btw.. Supreme Consciousness, That which is the ONE ... is far more than JUST "Creator". That is simply ONE of its aspects. There are more... more than finite mind can even begin to fathom.

On Surrender. Jesus would tell you ... Whatever one THINKS Surrender is... once you have finally achieved THAT you see that it was NONE of the things you EVER thought it was. That moment is saved for God and God alone and cannot be talked about, understood or experienced by the mind.

3. My response: You can say that if you wish, but I was once as fervent and zealous as you were, as were many ex-Christians. Let me give you some examples. I was so zealous that I once almost wrote Bible verses on the chalk board of my mom’s Buddhist study center. In high school, I even risked getting physically attacked by Muslim students, by attempting to witness to them. One time in an Art History class, after a lecture on Christian history, I gave the teacher some Christian gospel tracts to inform him of the true story of Jesus, to which the next day, he politely handed them back to me saying that he wasn’t the right person for me to be witnessing to. I felt embarrassed going out on a limb like that, but I thought I was doing the right thing.>>

AAhhh ... consider this.. IF you felt embarrassed AT THAT POINT IN TIME.. then you did not, for whatever reason, accept it as fully REAL.. even back then. Truth is never embarrassed. Embarrassment is the realm of the impure ego.

Anyway.. their own fervor and zealousness is their own karma playing out. You had your karma, and they have theirs. The point is to get beyond all that and simply learn to come from a place of Love... respecting the idea that God may indeed have a number of surprises in store for us on this long journey home.... to a place we NEVER left :) Bottom line here is.. Do not judge any of it... Why should you ? God doesn't. We are all simply living God's play. We are NOT in charge here. God is. So just practice loving.... in every moment see how you might add LOVE to that moment and you WILL change that experience for the better.

This earth plane is the classroom for our souls. God is NOT some harsh taskmaster , it is our own minds that beat on us. Divine Consciousness simply Loves. and the interactive ASPECT of that Divine Love guides and gives us what we need... which is rarely what we THINK we want. :( We should learn to listen for that inner voice which is always with all of us, forsaking none. It is we who forsake by not loving.

• Problem # 2: Many non-Christians who don’t share your beliefs, do claim and do have generally happy and fulfilling lives. Though you don’t believe them and deny it, that does not make these other testimonials untrue or erase them.>>

FR ~ Well think about itWinston .. What does it matter if they cannot yet recognize for themselves, that another is already walking in the full Grace of God, bathed in the Bliss of Divine Unconditional love WITHOUT the need for religion?

If one's religion can teach them about conditional love, fine, that's a good start, but more often than not religion sadly teaches fear .. the very thing that holds us in bondage!

You note I said without the need for religion, but I did not say.. without the need for GRACE. Grace is essential, but Grace has little if nothing to do with religion.. it has everything to do with the purity of one's own "heart" and God's willingness to capture our hearts and awaken us to The Supreme Reality within.... That You and God are ONE.

For those who believe God favors their approach over others of pure heart ... they have an amazing surprise in store. Wait until they see that Agnostics,Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, etc. even Atheists have found a way to jump into the Heart of God.. ahead of them!!! ..... Ohh that moment will be SO humbling...and they will know. Not "in" time.. but Outside of Time. Where all TRUE Knowing takes place.

C. Related claim: Even if I got all the things I want in this world/life, it wouldn’t make me truly happy but would leave me empty.

1. My response: I only agree with that partially. I honestly feel that if I got all the things I wanted in life, I would be much happier than I am now. Of course, I wouldn’t be perfectly happy 24 hours a day, for life is not like that and is cyclical in nature. But the bottom line is that I would be MUCH happier in general if I got what I wanted in life, than if I didn’t.>>

Your bottom line unfortunately is totally NOT So. To get what we WANT in this life is an incredible curse. Each life is designed to give us exactly the experiences we need in order to Grow spiritually. The GOAL here is to be not just "happy" but to be in total Supreme BLISS.. all the time. You have not even glimpsed this State yet, or you would not be foolish enough to make such a statement.

In spiritual terms here... you are "selling your soul for a HOT DOG!." When one finally is able to 'TOUCH THE FACE OF GOD' .. they KNOW that everything in this mundane world is like a hell in comparison. "Stuff" just distracts us from the real goal and becomes a burden. It is only when we let EVERYTHING GO.. that we RECEIVE everything. We become the JOY. Only silly words...until you GET there.

Even great wealth does not protect one from the horrors of the mind. and where there is great wealth and no Knowledge of the source of that wealth HELL is soon to follow.

You need to think LONG TERM here. This single life is like a half hour sit com to God. You have experienced millions of life times.. in God's infinite play . and here you are now. Standing on the Brink of Knowing the SOURCE of all Wealth. To chose the "toys" over the Source of those "toys" is to be in total ignorance.

As a great Saint often said... I give them what they want.. until they WANT what I have to Give. Finally they figure it out.. but it can be a painful journey, until they LEARN to drop all desires but the desire of the Source of all. That is the supreme treasure. meanwhile humans run around picking up lead, unable to perceive the gold within themselves.

Everything here is a trick of the mind.... and runs the opposite of what we THINK it should be. By giving we receive. But we must Give with the understanding that we are giving it to "God", freely and with a pure heart. If we are attached to the fruits of our labor.. there is no harvest.

II. Huge assumptions you have regarding Salvation and the Bible which divide us

A. All people are wicked sinners and destined to spend an eternity in hell unless they receive Christ as their Savior.>>

FR ~That is their reality because they are tasting their own karma. No words will change them but God's Transcendent wisdom.

FR ~ A box of Kellogg's Corn Flakes is the infallible inerrant word of God... Seriously ... for those who have the eyes to RECOGNIZE the DIVINE manifesting AS that Box of Cereal. And the Word WAS God.. and that WORD manifests CONSTANTLY.... as THIS Universe.

It's not about the Bible, or any other True Scripture .. it is about our ability to see God as this entire universe. If God chooses to hide.. we don't stand a chance.

IF God choses to manifest as a ketchup bottle, and then reveal ITs SELF to some one as that Ketchup bottle... I guarantee you they WILL be worshiping that Ketchup Bottle AND.. they would not be wrong. It is all about RECOGNITION.

That Roman soldier only nailed Jesus' feet because there was NO RECOGNITION. He would have gladly died on the spot KNOWING he had touched the FEET of God. Grace Graces those who recognize. At that point one KNOWS there is no Death but dying into one's own Supreme SELF.

Everything comes FROM God.. AND remains God. But the veil of ignorance falls and we cannot know what anything is.. not even.. ourselves.

C. A is true because of B (e.g. “The Bible says so….”) and everything that doesn’t fit in with the two assumptions above is false and/or of Satan.

1. My response: These assumptions lie at the core root that divide us, and why we do not see eye to eye. I think you two would agree on that too. Please note the following objections.....

Win. they cannot. Their own Karma blocks them. Only God can reveal Truth. Your mundane words, as mine also, can only fall on deaf ears, and generally irritate. Just let them be and start working on yourself. They read the Bible without Grace. They really have no choice.. at this point in time.

You might consider that they are sent as a gift ... so that you can contemplate where you were and where you might be going. Are you making the same mistakes as in the past, just in a different arena? You were sooo sure then, and you are sooo sure now. Contemplate that. God is ALWAYS sending us hints, but we need to learn to pick up on those hints... or continue to suffer.

• Problem # 3: What you and other Christians like you fail to understand and realize about assumption C is that: JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING DOESN’T MEAN IT’S TRUE! >>

OR .. that one actually even UNDERSTANDS the extremely subtle nuances behind the words, ..... understanding that ONLY Grace can give. That one THINKS they understand is nothing but a trick of the finite mind. True Revelation is far different than thinking or analyzing something. It is God allowing your mind to expand beyond its normal boundaries and showing you directly.

When people ask me do I honor Jesus as The ONE I say.. yes, absolutely. Then I go on to tell them that I also honor Krishna as The ONE, Buddha as The ONE, Allah, ATMAN, Shiva, Brahma, ... and so on and so on... there is a sacred chant that lists 1,000 names for The Supreme Divine ONE. They are ALL names for the ONE who exists AS all names and also BEYOND all names.

It does not matter if someone hands you WATER or AGUA, your thirst is quenched, your life is saved. You on the other hand Vinstonas are trying to drink sand.. and you will die choking on it.

BTW For those who think I lessen the importance of Jesus by equating Him with BEings such as Krishna or the Buddha, themselves miss the true Greatness of Jesus. Quite to the contrary.. Jesus was the Living Christ .. which is ALL.. excluding NONE. I AM the One ~ references Jesus' Christ STATE..not his physical form which is simply some water and a few minerals. When we identify with the form only and cannot perceive the essence and Power WITHIN the from ... ANY FORM .. KNow that God is hiding from you... while standing right in front of you. It could be a child in a stroller, a tree, a mountain, a cloud, a beggar. Learn to KNOW its TRUE essence. I AM THAT

. << You present zero evidence that there is a Judgment Day that everyone who ever lived will stand before, where those who accepted Christ will enter into heaven while those who didn’t will be thrown in hell. ...>>

Faith's comment: Heaven and Hell are as "real" as any other plane of Consciousness. No more or no LESS than this world we are experiencing right now. We experience everything within the mind, Mind being the creative tool of God. Mind has the power to throw us into the most horrid of hells or the sweetest heaven depending on how we chose to THINK ,and the karma we create by following those thoughts with actions.

If we experience a thing then that "thing" becomes our reality. This is why Yogis practice all the time to control the mind... to go beyond it to True Bliss which never leaves one.. no matter what the outer play may be.

Jesus was the consummate Yogi. He did NOT "suffer" on the Cross. He simply witnessed himself there and continued to bless all around him.

There was no sacrifice there. Most Christians totally miss the greatness of Jesus AND his true purpose. Oh well. It is their karma. they need to go through persecution, whatever, so they design a God that addresses that issue. Luckily that karma ends eventually. Then what? It depends on how open one's heart is.

AM I looking for acceptance here? Not really. That comes later.. in God's time.

Just sharing in the hopes that some may have the ears to hear. God works in VERY mysterious ways.

Note: In another post below, FaithRada also comments on the discussion I had with the two missionary friends.

Missionaries: Everyone is empty deep down inside with Christ, for only he could fill that human emptiness that we all have.

Me: << But I know many people who are happy and fulfilled in other beliefs and religions.>>

Question to Win ... What does The"Christ" have to do with beliefs and/or religions?

These Missionaries are no doubt a bit deluded (me be kind :P ) ... in believing that their religion alone has access to The Christ.. but people do get deluded from time to time.. oh well, it's all part of the Play. They will figure it out eventually, though probably not in this current lifetime.

Nonetheless there is some truth to what they say, Even though they themselves don't quite get it. The Christ or PURE Consciousness which IS The Divine Reality, IS essential if one wants to access one's ultimate fulfillment. the $50,000 question is..... What IS one's ultimate fulfillment? Heaven? NOOOOOO Godhood? YESSSSSSSS

Would they like to blast me and those like me as some kind of mad satanic heretics? Most likely. Yet I fully embrace Jesus' highest teachings. Thomas understood Jesus completely... Peter did not. Peter's anger,arrogance and jealousy blocked the highest Truth from his own ears. Likewise they miss the message but even worse.. they actually BELIEVE they understand.

To attain the ultimate awareness of who we are we must not only meet The Christ we must RECOGNIZE who/what The Christ IS.... Everything!

To those still trapped in duality ... they see God as dealing with an "oppositional" force...(God vs Satan... whatever) but when one rises to the NON Dual perspective they understand that "God" or The "Christ", or Perfect ONE .... has NO opposition... since the Perfect ONE is all that IS. As long as one thinks that duality ... Good VS Evil is the ULTIMATE Realty.. they DO NOT KNOW The Christ. They have not been awakened by Grace, and think that Heaven is the highest Goal. It is not.

The Christ does not care about this or that religion or belief system, those are just constructs of the human mind. The Christ ONLY cares about Love.

The Christ , or Perfect Consciousness, IS Love AND is also the source of MIND .. and everything else.. and until one learns, via Grace, to recognize that "Christ" within, they will NEVER know the ultimate "Supreme Love" . There is no other way. Grace chooses freely whom it will awaken and whom it will pass by. Those with loving hearts draw Grace to them much more easily.. think of metal near a magnet... but even murderers and thieves get lucky at times : ) The odds just are not near as good. People in prison have received Divine Shaktipat, while the pope sits in Rome and gets .... more bad karma.

When Jesus said.... I AM The ONE.. this is the ONE he was referencing.. not his temporary physical form of water and a few minerals... but The Christ Consciousness within... His essence, his BEingness, which has no beginning and no end, but simply IS and IS not. This same all pervasive Christ exists, usually QUITE well concealed, in all "hearts" and THIS was the main message Jesus came to impart... to those who were ready to hear.

The "Christ" could assume a physical form and stand on a street corner in Time Square... and a million people might walk right by Him/Her and maybe... one out of that million would be able to recognize them AS the Living Christ. Everyone else would probably just think they were witnessing a normal person ... while the fortunate soul falls weeping in full Recognition at the feet of God. Think it has not happened? Think again. Think it could not happen to you? Don't be soooo sure.

The vehicle for the transmission of this knowledge is GRACE. (The active dynamic, and tangible energy of The Christ... (in Sanskrit - Shakti) Jesus' form was a Grace Bestowing Vehicle of The One Christ Consciousness . That there were/are other pure vehicles becomes obvious once Grace descends and fully awakens an individual. Again.. The Christ is impartial and does not judge. It matters not if you are an Atheist or a Hindu, or a Catholic or someone from New Jersey. :P When Grace strikes .. you are NEVER the same again... and you cannot explain what happened ........ well you can, but everyone (except those awakened by Grace themselves) will think you have lost your mind. The Good news is.. you could not care less. : )

So in one sense your Missionary friends are right.... they just don't know HOW right. You could lose everything, the world could blow up tomorrow.. but if you KNOW The Christ, The Supreme REality, then you will remain in a state of incomparable inner peace and Divine Bliss ... a state that is never diminished by what is going on in the outer play of this world.

When The Christ is finally recognized ... in that moment all belief and disbelief falls away.... and one KNOWS. This is NOT a knowing of the subjective mind.. but a Transcendent KNOWING ... where one enters the Mind of God. To touch that State, even for a moment is enough to transform one forever.... because it is a TIMELESS moment. God exists in and outside of Time. God/Christ/Supreme Consciousness creates Time out of It's own SELF.

For those who have Gnosis or True Knowledge (not too many) they do not limit the concept of The Christ to any belief system, or some religious perspective. What Christianity is referencing when they say Christ ... whether they realize it or not ... is The ONE Pure All pervasive Consciousness .... or ATMAN, or Supreme SELF of ALL. It does become a word problem because without the direct Transcendent 'Experience' there is no real understanding.

Many attach a limited meaning to it and stay with that meaning..... until something comes along to EXPAND that meaning... that something... is GRACE.

Some people might say..... I love God but not Allah or Jehovah That's like saying... I love water but not aqua. In their ignorance they perceive a difference, but there is no difference. Humans are programmed to see differences, where no differences actually exist. Grace lifts the veil that creates the illusion of difference, even as it lets one enjoy the benefits of perceived differences.

Are you ready for this Win ??? You ARE The Christ. The caveat here is .. you do not yet really KNOW who YOU are. So.. BEWARE the ego here..... There is an incredibly SUBTLE but HUGE distinction between the limited i (Vinstonas) and the Supreme ~ I ~ Vinstonas's essential Christ Nature. To say i Vinstonas am The Christ is totally different than saying I Vinstonas am The Christ. Only a fool would say the first, and only a fully awakened BEing can know the latter.

To recognize yourself as The Christ you MUST be ABLE to recognize this whole CREATION ...everyone AND everything in it AS The Christ...... Otherwise one is a deluded fool who is still very far from Truth Absolute. Grace has yet to descend on them.

If you never do anything else in your entire life.. contemplate those last two paragraphs and ASK The Christ to reveal their hidden meaning.. This knowledge is worth MORE than all the Gold in all the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eventually, through Grace, the subtle inner longing really heats up and the real Inner Journey begins.

All human desire for Wealth, Fame, Power, Hot Chics, bigger and better thrills, etc. ... is NOTHING but an outer expression of the LONGING to KNOW our True inner SELF or Christ Consciousness, but this longing is typically misdirected toward the outer or physical realm.. AND will NEVER be satisfied there.

When we are looking for a mate we are looking for someone/something outside of ourselves to COMPLETE ourselves... not realizing that the Christ within us is all we need to be complete. We already ARE Complete in every way, We NEED nothing because we ARE Everything, yet we cannot see this.

Think about it.... People are always chasing after outer happiness. They try everything. They THINK the right car or a bigger house, or a "hotter' chic or a prestigious job will do the trick. But as soon as they acquire their perceive "object of happiness"... the DESIRE for something more pops right back up.... and on and on it goes.

All the time we hear about people with fame and great wealth living inner lives of quiet desperation. Often these people tragically turn to drugs or endless sexual escapades,or even become "workaholics" in an effort to quiet the inner pain and emptiness.... to no avail. These activities give such fleeting and shallow gratification, had they known to turn to The Christ within.. they would have attained everything... True Bliss. Remember.. we are NOT talking about religion or belief here... but simply following one's still, quiet voice within.

If you KNEW The Christ within Win, you would not feel the need to go searching around Russia... you would be totally content right where you arein any given moment. Whether you had a partner or not... you would simply recognize your Completeness and be totally content. Religion does not deliver this, belief does not give us this... ONLY Grace can give THAT kind of contentment and Joy. So... one should seek THAT and then everything else simply comes to them.... effortlessly. When we are in perfect alignment with The Christ within... we simply flow with life and nothing that comes to us can disturb our inner peace.

To get to this point we DO have to do something though.... We need to SEEK, and if we are lucky enough to find .. then we LISTEN and do The Christ's bidding... whatever that may be. It involves incredible surrender .. surrender of one's impure ego to something greater than its SELF. THIS is the One True Death that Jesus and All the Great Grace Bestowers speak of. By dying into Supreme Consciousness one BECOMES THAT. It is the only way. It is where you came from and where you are going back too. How long the Journey takes... is ultimately up to you.

There is only one thing in this universe that CAN bring True and LASTING happiness,

contentment and peace of mind and THAT is the Formless Supreme ONE. Though IT exists beyond all names and forms, .....still, it has chosen to become ALL names and ALL Forms. It conceals its SELF very well, but from time to time it goes give us a small glimpse... for those who have some awareness.. they CAN detect it. It can be a small bird sitting on a branch ... just watching you... and you KNOW. It could be a leaf, floating gently to the ground... and you KNOW. Or... it could be an old beggar woman with a twinkle in her eye... and you KNOW .. If you are aware enough and spiritually awake enough to see.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Missionaries: << They are only pretending to be happy and fulfilled. Without Christ, there is no true inner joy, peace, or fulfillment.>>

I don't think "Pretend" is really the most appropriate word here. Most may actually believe that they ARE happy and fulfilled since MOST people have no idea what real Divine Bliss even looks/feels like. The idea of happiness and fulfillment is quite subjective after all.

Most ASSUME what is being referenced here is some simple basic human emotion... but what is REALLY being referenced is something far far deeper than that. In fact, I strongly suspect that these Missionaries have only a tiny inkling of an idea of what the State of The Christ actually is. The word "Happy" is a pathetically limited word to describe The Supreme Bliss of The SELF, or Christ. If they DID know.. then they would not even BOTHER to be Religious Christian Missionaries. Wild hu?

Me: For example, the movie star Richard Gere claims to be happy in his Buddhist beliefs.

Missionaries: << Richard Gere is not truly happy. He just tells everyone that to keep up his image.>>

HA HA Ha Ha Haaaaaa ohh That would be precious. Kinda sad, but precious. THIS is called "Mirroring" where one projects their own beliefs on to another.

The truth is .. they obviously would have no idea how happy Richard Gere is or if he even gives a flying F*$& what anyone thinks about him.

To admit to even the possibility of Mr. Gere's TRUE Happiness would indicate that there really IS another route to The "Christ" besides their own ... GASP .... and so they MUST deny any possibility of Mr. Gere's attainment.

Me: I also know and can name many former Christians who were unhappy or empty in their faith, and found fulfillment and meaning in other religions or belief systems, such as Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, Islam, Hinduism, Wiccan, New Age, or even Atheism/Agnosticism. Many of them have emailed me to share their stories before, and my site has links to forums and support group sites dedicated to them.

Missionaries: Then they were never true Christians to begin with. No one who is truly “born again” would fall away permanently. They may have thought that they were truly born again, but were mistaken. Nothing compares with being born again and having a relationship with Christ, which is completely satisfying.

Define Permanently How many lifetimes would one have to experience before they were no longer considered ... NOT a True Christian????

Plus... there are different levels of relationships. Peter may have had a relationship with Jesus BUT, it was not the same level of Thomas' relationship with Jesus. One did not have Gnosis, and the other did.

Me: But many of these were honest devout Bible thumpers who gave their whole lives for their faith, evangelizing all along the way, just like you!

Missionaries: Again, not all who claim to be Christians are. Having a mere intellectual belief in Jesus doesn’t make one born again. It requires God to open up their eyes, and their complete surrender to him. A lot of people who think they are saved, are not. Remember that Jesus said that on Judgment Day, many will come to him and claim to be his followers, but he will say that he never knew them, and throw them aside. >>

FR ... Note the irony here ....<< A lot of people who think they are saved, are not>> They themselves, are IN this Group.

<<(end of mock dialogue example)

Now, you see how extremely circular this got? Those two missionaries rationalized away whatever didn’t fit in with their beliefs and theology. Rather than updating their beliefs to fit the facts, they twisted and adjusted the facts around their beliefs, sometimes even denying them altogether. Essentially, they ignored what proved them wrong. Do you really think an honest belief system would require a complete ignoring of evidence against it like that? >>

THAT dear Vinstonas IS the human condition. Anyway.... a belief system, even an "honest" one... is still nothing but belief. It is NOT even subjective knowing of the mind , Never mind Transcendent KNOWING .. That which is essential to Recognize The "Christ".

Where REAL faith can help lead one to Gnosis or objective Knowing, blind faith, such as they display leads away from The Christ. They are a good example of what Jesus actually warned against.. sort of ironic don't you think?.

Most, like these fellows could not recognize The Christ if He/She walked up and said "Hi" to them. I've seen it go both ways. It IS quite .... entertaining.