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Reader Responses to My Rise to Christianity and Transcendence From It and

Debunking Christian Circular Arguments and Assumptions


(Sorted in ascending order, newest at the top)



My name is Chudney. I read your article on "debunking christianity" recently and it made me think, research and come to my OWN conclusions about what i'm "supposed" to believe in (grew up in a non-denominational church programmed basica lly to believe in these things but was never as zealous as you used to be -read your bio too-)your article also helped me tremendously with my hell-phobia that every christian at one time probably has or has had, for all these things I have to thank you. I had questioned everything about the world except my own religion.
that being said, you may or may not believe in what some people call "conspiricy theories" ( they are not theories unfortunately a great amount of them are truths just not accepted or cared about by the general public) But alot of the things going on in the world ( corporate greed,government corruption, sexualization of everything(music,children,etc),objectivication of women, depletion of human rights and freedoms,) stems from groups of wealthy individuals who feel they are entitled to the control of the world and its doings because of wealth, some people (i'm not sure about this though) say they use satanic and otherworldly forces to perpetuate their wealth greed and control. So I'm asking you if there's no Satan and there's still this immense cancerous evil in the world, what would be another explanation for all of this? who else would cause such things? ( if you don't believe me assume for this questions sake  all the things I am typing to you are fact)



Hello and greetings,


I just recently visited your website about debunking Christianity, and I was reading it practically all day. I then found my way to your testimony, and read it in its entirety.


I'm writing this on impulse, so bear with me here:


Our lives are almost completely parallel.


From being raised in Christianity, to having great dreams of saving souls for Christ and making a difference in the world, feeling a heavier burden than any (The thought of loved ones being consumed by the fires of hell), I pretty much lost my mind and also have a form of OCD (I cried out to God for months, flat on my face, crying and begging for mercy, saying "Where are You?! Why aren't you in my life???", after and during those times deep deppression and apathy (as well as abandonment) were the themes of my life.


After highschool, I met this wise old man whom I worked with at a Wal mart (of all places) and being around him just gave me this feeling of great and divine peace, I don't know how else to describe it. He was very spiritual, but never taught me a thing. He just encouraged me to look outside the box and to think for myself and ASK QUESTIONS. (I always did on the inside, but now I had the courage to openly face my issues with the flaws of Christianity). And so I did. During those times, I also met my wife and Twin Flame. We met online. Her and I went through those tough times together, so I was fortunate about that. Together we researched other spiritual paths, as we still do to this day.


It was about one year ago since I shed my religious shell.

And according to what is on your website, our beliefs match up by about 95%


I apologize, I didn't intend on writing my life story to you, but that is what my heart told me to do.


I wanted to write to you because I felt spiritually connected to you. I know it sounds strange, but somehow I feel as if we are brothers.



Please take care,





I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic".



I read your arguments and thought them scholarly and well thought out.
Reading the Bible verbatim will just naturally create inconsistencies. However, I've discovered a written anomaly in the writings that explains the method that should be used to interpret so there are no contradictions.
The Fundamentalists don't like me either because I can prove their religions are wrong.
I think you might like my approach to interpreting and I've attached one of my books, which I believe is safe to open because I regularly scan my computer.



Hi Winston...


Thanks for commenting on Christian Fundamentalism... I have a similar story to your's. Breaking free from it's brainwashing, that turned me into an 'Amen, Hallelujah Robot' has been difficult.


Pages I've authored you may find interesting...




It's good to know I'm not the only one to fight back, and tell the story.






Hi Winston,

I ran into your website because I was researching Christianity and I have to say thank you!  What you say about American women and esp. the list of 10 reason why you're forced to look abroad are so true.  This is coming from me, a white Irish-German male who's in the computer field, been told he is good looking, 5' 11" and broad shoulders, yet I'm not rich, always had a belly and the key thing, and I'm guessing the same is true of you, above average intelligence.  Women in the US and perhaps other Western countries are terrified of and hate dealing with intelligent men!  It's like they always be on this shallow level of conversation talking about American Idol or some stupid shit I have no interest in knowing about.

All I know is, I am frustrated as hell and I'm no longer interested in them.

One question:  Are there some more voluptuous women out there in Asia or Russia?  They all seem too skinny and I like the big booty (but NOT overweight).


P. S.  I skimmed over some of what you wrote about Christianity and all I have to say is that the vast majority of content of Paul's letters are contradictory to Jesus' teachings (this is what I was specifically looking for and I heard that authors like Leo Tolstoy believe it as well) and that a group of men canonized scripture, basically out of political pressure and mutual interest and benefit.  So, I am just as fascinated if not more so in what was LEFT OUT of the Bible as much as what should not have been included.



Hello again Winston,

I just fully read your story, "My rise from Christiantiy..."  Wow!  I can't believe how similar our stories are down to minute details!  What a BIG HELP it is!   

But I do have a question.  After you had your breakdown, how did you find the ability to get back into Christianity?  Did you suppress the thought of your relatives going to hell?  After my breakdown, I never had the capacity to get back into Christianity though I definitely felt all the guilt, shame, etc.     

Another thing I'd like to mention, and I know this is just my opinion.  Based solely on your story, I don't think you have/had schizophrenia.  Just OCD and depression.  It's not that important to your story, but I like to clarify for people on OCD since I've had such a horrendous case of it myself.  This prompted me to work with people with all kinds of mental health issues. 

3rd, I'm reading through your arguments against Christianity and find them brilliant.  But as you remember, Christians thrive on having an answer for every proposition made against their faith.  That said, unless I'm misunderstanding them, I see some minor imperfections (though the fewest I've ever seen!) in your arguments that may give Christians an excuse to discount you all together.  Don't misunderstand me.  I think 99.9% of your arguments are PERFECT and will shake any thinking Christian into either fear or intellectual honesty. But if you are open to it, I'd like to send you my thoughts after more thorough reading. Of course, that's only if you even have time to look at them.  Here is an example some Christians will try to call you on:   

In your argument you said, "Fundamentalists love to cite 2 Timothy 3:16; however, the ?Scriptures? referred to in that verse refer to the Old Testament..."

But take a look at this link:

Of course, that proves nothing, but it might be a case for the Christian to dismiss you. 

If you have time, tell me what you think.




Mr. Wu,

Thank you for an informative, enlightening and thorough series of essays about Fundamentalist Christianity.  Though I consider myself a liberal Christian (so much so that many would say I wasn't Christian at all!), I have had many experiences with the Fundamentalist church and it's people and theology.

I do have one question---you do an excellent job of refuting almost every argument I've seen from the Fundamentalists, but there is one aspect that you haven't touched upon (if you did and I missed it, please guide me to it).  How do you answer the person who is positive that they have actually seen Christ, whether in a vision, dream, or almost as a material being with their own eyes?  I know I have been with people who claim that they became "born again" after such an experience (including two of my siblings).  Unlike arguments against biblical inerrancy, wandering stars, talking snakes, etc., it seems that there can be no argument that would convince these people that what they experienced was anything but real.  In your experience, have you come across this sort of phenomenon, and what do you make of it?


Russell Sinclair



Dear Winston,


I am truly inspired by your story "My Rise to Christianity and Transcendence from it" 


and I am sure many others will be too. Like you, I was diagnosed with mental illness five years ago and am now fully recovered.


Winston, I am currently working on my second book entitled "Rich Mental Health", a compilation of success stories of well known and ordinary people around the world who have triumphed over mental illness despite the overwhelming odds (sample attached). I believe that your contributions will be of immense value and great inspiration to those who are still struggling to recover from mental illness.


Hence, I would like to invite you to be a contributor for my upcoming book. Essentially, it will be a 5 page narrative inclusive of your favorite photo (optional). The questions below serve as a guide in writing your story.


1.     How and when (at what age) were you first diagnosed with mental illness (your diagnosis)? 


2.     What were the signs and symptoms of your illness?


3.     What are the key ingredients to your successful recovery?


If agreeable, hope to receive your contributions, latest by February 2. Meanwhile, should you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.


Respectfully yours


Personal website:



Hi Winston,
               Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, sorry it has taken me a while to respond, I'm usually faster.  Thanks for you kind words on the blog.  I came to New Age beliefs naturally and gradually, with however a few sudden dramatic experiences.  I was raised amongst an evangelical family, very spiritually alive, however extremely fundamentalist in the realm of dogma and doctrine.  From a young age I seeked to be able to seperate Spirituality from Religion, instictively wanting to keep the Baby, but through out the bath water.  I always loved the teachings of Jesus, but found them very difficult to reconcile with the rest of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament.
As I entered my teens I became interested in Psychology, as I have always had a fascinating dream life (I started having pre-cognitive dreams at a young age, as well as frequent lucid dream, and flying dreams).  Soon I discoverd Carl Jung and the concept of a Collective Unconscious, and soon after I started hearing about ParaPsychology and so forth.  I first experienced Meditation in the end of High School, and I had an amazing experience first off.
After finishing school I had a rough ride, which slowly descended into my own personal hell over a period of several years.  I was very angry with Christians in general, yet I still believed in the Paranormal.  Neither was I entirely convinced by New Age either, I was yet to read the serious literature in this regard, I had just encountered some people with New Age beliefs who hadn't quite convinced me yet.  I displayed a magnetic attraction to Buddhism, yet I did not seriously look into this until later.  Some years later, I started getting Reiki to help me with a few problems and this instantly gave me faith in the Supernatural, explelling most of my doubts by the direct experience of Subtle Energies and a clear demonstration of Mediumship.  I had just begun reading seriously, and this started to consume most of my free time.  I read and read and read, and my theories developed and evolved further and further.  When I started Yoga, I knew I had found what I was looking for, then I read the Bhagavad-Gita and I fell in love with Yoga & Vedanta Mystic Philosophy (If you ever read the Gita, just avoid the Hare Krishna (ISKON) version, it's very poor and highly biased, kind of like Christian Fundamentalists).  Since then I have tried to follow this path as much as possible, I still stumble, I am human, yet I have tasted the Divinity within, and I sincerely believe there is no highly goal than the pursuit of self-realisation and the service of mankind.  I also attend Spiritualist Churches regularly, they have great services, lectures and Meditation classes.
Earlier this year I was reading alot about the historical context of Christianity and I came upon Kenneth Humphreys website .  I found it to be by far the best source of information of it's kind I had come across (I had recently been to a lecture on a similar topic) and I think it had a link through to your website.  I then read through your site, very impressed, however as I mentioned, I would love to see it expanded.  (However, kudos to you as you have done a lot more so far than I have eh!)
I'm not suprised to find that Christians use circular reasoning to debate with you, I've found the same.  In fact that was the reason I put that brief post on my blog.  I am looking for people with whom I can test ideas & arguments, to see what really works.  I have a grand plan for a huge website divided into layers of detail, in a similar manner to Kenneth's website, with every fact referenced.  The main point is to present the different views side-by-side, as I feel doing this will allow truth to shine through.  The blog is kind of a stepping stone to this greater goal.  So, I'm looking for people who feel similarly to myself about the importance and significance of these issues, even or especially if they don't agree with me on everything.  I would like to get a team together so different people can specialize in different areas and give the various topics the room and detail they require.  Particullarly, I would like the project to be a vehicle through which many different researches and writers can come together for the common good, contribute their work into one source so a holistic big picture can be drawn from their various fields of research.  I must say though, any contributions however great or small I appreciate.  Whilst I would love to find people to work side by side with me, even the occasional comment or email would be great.  I do have a few people that have promised to work with me, but are as yet to come through due to other commitments.
I am from the bottom of the Land Down Under, beautiful Australia.  Where are you from?  I guess I assume everyone on the Internet is from America without even asking.  Even if that is the case, it's still a huge continent with diverse states and regions.  I would love for you to put me on that mailing list for the debates, it sounds exactly like what I'm into.  And by the way check out this blog , the writer is amazing, he should be called The Proffesor!
I am very interested in NDE's.  Several years ago I read throught the whole of Kevin William's site , I think it comes up at the top of a google search.  The site is quite good, he describes himself as a Christian Universalist, basically New Age with Christian Mythological contexts, really a common element in NDE reports as most of the people come from either Christian backgrounds or a society with Christian underpinnings (Most Atheists are quite familiar with Christians concepts and cosmology for example).  I also read several books on the topic.  Thanks for the links, keep them coming.  I noticed on your website you mention Michael Talbots book 'The Holographic Universe', that is one of my very favourites, part of what I would like to do with the Blog and eventual website is to expand upon his book.  Check out the attached ebook, Dreamtank.  It's from an Idealist that I know.  I have alot of criticisms of it as it is currently, but overall I strongly support what they are doing.  If you are interested in being involved in Dreamtank, contact Be-Ing at 

Thank you for responding to my email.  Please keep in touch.
God Bless,
Hari Om,



Hi Winston,
               I have read through your website debunking Christianity and was overall very impressed.  I was brought up in an evangelical family and now I'm very interested in inter-faith dialogue from an Eastern / New Age aproach.  I have started a blog as a precursor to making a detailed website.  I found myself agreeing with most of what you wrote, however I'd love to see it expanded out into greater detail, and getting Christians to debate it point by point with you.  Would you be interested in working on this with me?



hey man just congratulating you on your website. the one that refutes all the christian arguments.
at the moment im an ex christian, the amount of stuff i know about the bible and all the theological problems makes it impossible for me to go back to christianity.
you brought up so many of the hiccups i had with christianity, and it was cool to see that someone else was also brave enough to detail these problems.
im currently going to a deconversion phase right now, and im pretty sure that my christian friends are noticing my change in attitude.
thanks again for the site, it was an awesome read



Hey Winston,


Its Calvin.


So I have been reading your emails on and off. I find some of them really interesting.

In fact when I first visited your website last year and read about your depression and OCD related to christianity,  it struck a chord in me.


I was also once a VERY committed christian. And I have actually been down that road that you described in your website.

On top of that, I not only had OCD but I first had bipolar disorder that is religiously inspired.


As I was going through these 2 problems in my life, it feels like I have been cut off from the rest of humanity. It feels like hell.


But I managed to handle this two destructive personality disorder without any medication or treatment from any doctor or psychiatrists.

It took me years.

Its not that I didn't wanted to. Its just that when I was going through it I didn't know that it can be treated medically and psychiatically.

I only found out that I had these 2 disorders after I have ( through trial and error ) begin to 'heal '
( they are not really a diseases ) myself of it.

When my mind was back to normal I got to know about bipolar disorder when I was watching an episode of Oprah Winfrey.

I got to know that I had OCD when I read about your story in your website. Thanks.


I know exactly why you said you found a new sense of clarity of mind and an ability to articulate when you have gotten yourself out of OCD.

I also did gain a considerable measure of the abovesaid abilities as I was recovering from those 2 disorders.

I believe people like you and me ( and others with similar experiences ) have a certain depth of knowledge of the human mind and emotions after having plumming its depths ( in despair ) and soaring its heights ( in mania, if you had bipolar ) , thanks to the nature of the disorder that afflicted us   :)

Because we have been through such experiences, we are in a good position to help others who are in the same journey.

I believe there are many other christians ( and non christians ) who are going through the same things.

Somehow these forms of disorder are common in christians. Maybe I am wrong.


Because I have been through these experiences and have overcame it I am now a stronger person. On top of that I have also discovered my life purpose or goal.

I am going to become a personal development motivator and trainer.

I believe my story and the lessons learnt would be very useful to others. Perhaps it might stir some away from committing suicide.


So I would like to ask you if you know of any institution in the US ( or otherwise ) or person that would offer some kind of internship/training that would lead to some form of legitimacy ( certification ?) which would put me in a position to become a motivator/trainer myself?

I have surfed the net for some answers and there are MYRIADS.

Since you are an American, I thought you might have some good ideas or recommendations as you are familiar with things in the US.


Secondly, you have made quite a good case about how wonderful life is in the Philipines that I am considering of visiting for the first time.  ;)

If I were to visit the philipines for a few weeks to 6 months , is there any job opening or opportunies to make money ( for living and holiday expenses ) for me there; or perhaps even for training.

I am a law graduate from the UK with some experiences in offcice administration & sales, but who is intending to become a motivator/trainer as I have said before.


My plan is to get some training and experience in the US ( and be established ) and later to travel back to Asia ( and wherever the demand is ) to motivate/train and share my life story.

I know my life story is going to bless a lot of people.


ps: I have not describe in detail my experiences of those 2 disorders I had and how I actually got out of it

      because it would be too long for an email.

     You can share this email with others or post it in your forum if you want to.



Yours sincerely,





Hi Winston,
I read your story today, found it by accident......
I'm afraid the brand of Christianity you began with as a youth was well
corrupted. For example: What will happen at death to a person if they
never heard the gospel? God will judge them based on the law he has
written in their hearts. If they heard the gospel and reject the Holy
Spirit's working within them - then they have sinned, rejecting Christ.

Well reading your story, our heavenly Father showed me that you were
inhabited by spirits upon your visit to Taiwan. Your attempt to convert
your relatives angered Satan's demons (spirits). In fact they still
inhabit you to this day. When you have children - they will pass from
you to them. May I suggest you forget about the church and all of the
false Christian teachings and begin a new?

Did you know there exists two Bibles? One, the 1611/1769 King James is
the same as was first translated to English - not one word added or
removed. The other came into the world in 1880 and was known as the
Revised Version. However, it has absolutely no relation to the first. It
is the devil's counterfeit and the most popular bible today going under
numerous names NIV, NKJ, etc.

Anyway my friend please take a moment to read this book:

Book: War on the Saints
This is no more a book for the general reader than is either a medical
work on cancer, or a text book on mental disorders. It should never be
read for curiosity nor from mere academic interest. "To the natural man;
who has but a mental grasp of spiritual things, the language used may be
meaningless, but Christians of all stages of growth in the spiritual
life, who simply take what they can understand and leave the remainder
for those who are in deeper need-and until they themselves are in deeper
need-will obtain much light on matters within their horizon."

Well I'm not even sure this email will make it to you since the fact
your email address was displayed means you probably get a lot of

Take care,

Kaohsiung Lutheran Mission





I really love your website, but have a couple points to make regarding your "Creationism" section.


Quote by you:  "I will say that I do not argue against the evidence of intelligent design in the universe.  I am one of those with the middle position that Evolution did happen, but that a cosmic life force had something to do with it.  After all, no Atheist or scientific materialist has ever been able to answer the question of how something could come from nothing, or why anything even exists at all."


Please the following response to this. 


We humans intelligently design and create, therefore we assume that we also must have been designed and created by an intelligent designer.   However, symptoms such as diseases, viruses, bacteria, aging, physical ailments, mental disorders, and common birth defects don?t point to any type of intelligent design.  Natural catastrophes that occur on a regular basis that destroy life indiscriminately do not point to any type of intelligent design.  You can look into the cosmos and find unintelligent design aspects to it such as black holes, supernovas, white dwarfs, red giants, meteors, etc.  The intelligent design argument is really feeble as it assumes a flawless creation.< SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  Believing that there is this Intelligent Designer actually diminishes the amazement of the universe by suggesting that god just did it, rather than by way of a complicated, intricate process that science is continually learning and explaining.  Believing that this "cosmic force" just did it doesn?t explain any of the complexity we see before us; it only transfers the burden of one unknown to an even larger unknown.


Attributing an "intelligent designer" or "cosmic force" as the source every time something can?t be explained from a natural perspective is illogical.  That?s the same mentality that was used several thousand years ago to justify the existence of multiple gods when our understanding of the universe and nature were limited.  The flaw in this logic is that you must then ask yourself who created this intelligent designer then, and so on, infinitely regressing.  If you can conveniently just assume that this intelligent designer has always existed and doesn?t need a creator, then you can just as easily assume that the formation of the universe didn?t need a creator either.  Science may or may not ever be able to unravel all the mysteries in the universe or adequately explain the singular event in time that caused this chain reaction to occur, but we should not compromise our intelligence and default to an intelligent designer as being responsible.  You are still required to prove this intelligent designer's existence, not just insert him into the gaps of what cannot be understood at this moment in time, and call that proof.   


In addition, the following 2-concepts often get confused with each other.  Abiogenesis is the study of the origin of first life, and Evolution describes the gradual changes in species from simple beginnings over time.  Science never states that life just came from nothing, but rather that the formation of the first life originated from non-living matter.  And Natural Selection, which is the driving mechanism behind Evolution, is the exact opposite of chance.  Chance only plays a role in the form of gene mutations, but from there, the possessors of those gene mutations that are suited to the environment will have greater reproductive success, and the possessors of those inferior gene variations that are not favorable to the environment will gradually be eliminated until eventual extinction.  So we are not here by chance; we have successfully evolved to this point through Natural Selection, which is a cumulative process of slow gradual degrees from simple beginnings. 


Thanks for your time.




Winston, I read your story and wanted to make this comment. It's unfortunate what you went through and there are many who still fall under the same "Christian" misconceptions you were subjected to. Many things you are correct about in your considerations regarding the faith and beliefs you were instructed in and you are also right in that no loving God would condemn a soul to hell for never having been aware of Christ or His teachings. You are also right in that most Christian denominations follow the same basic (very basic) principles but not because of the theory you concluded. Its actually much simpler than that. If you research the history and founding of the various independent denominations they all came from one source and it was the individual founders who put their own twists on their own "faiths". That's why they are so similar in basics. Its called the "sifted like wheat" effect if you understand. God is a loving God and the best way to know Him is to go to the original source. He is much as you hoped He was and not as you thought . If you ever decide to know Him as He is, you can contact me at  and I will be glad to assist you. By the way, your family would not necessarily go to hell for not knowing or being of Christian faith either. Again, I have been Roman Catholic, left it, and researched Christianity all only to learn it was I that was wrong. Don't feel sorry for my beliefs, know I am sympathetic to what you experienced and will pray for you.




Dear Winston,

I recently came across your site about "debunking" Fundamentalist Christianity. Well, I don't really want to waste my time going over things that are ambiguous to you, so I'll go over just one thing and hope you are willing to update the site and reflect that this portion needs to be corrected. Yes, I know it's one small thing, and I know it's probably something you don't particularly care about, but rather than go over everything and all your exhaustive arguments, I decided to focus only on one that is minute that most people would probably see as irrelevant. I can attest to people having deconversions to Christianity, I was close to it myself, but I didn't go the same route as you did, and I didn't find your story anything to applaud about, especially when most of the issues you brought up stem from trying to be "politically correct," and tended to be emotionally charged rather than logical.

I just want to correct one of your arguments that would take less than five minutes to explain, and probably wouldn't even impact or debunk anything else you put up. Please be honorable when considering what I or in my case, what God has assigned me to write down.

In Argument # 5 about Rabbits do not chew the Cud.
I feel you misunderstood the meaning of that passage, based on the translation in Hebrew.

Here is the problem. The modern English word for "cud" is as follows:
1.the portion of food that a ruminant returns from the first stomach to the mouth to chew a second time.

This is the KJV's translation of the word gerah'alah
is the word that is commonly understood in English as "cud."

Since a Rabbit is not a ruminant, the argument is that it cannot possibly chew the cud, as it does not regurgitate it's food and then eat it again only to mix it with more saliva. That is the argument you are presenting to your readers, and it is also the argument you use to say "How could the Bible be inerrant and not know this."

Here's the issue, the word for "cud" in modern English is restrictive versus the Hebrew word for cud. That same word in Hebrew simply means "to raise up what has been swallowed." It does not have the same restrictions as the English word for "cud," in that it does not imply constant "rumination" but rather also "refection." Refection is when the rabbit pass what they eat first through their body and then eat it again.

Now you're probably thinking... okay, so the Hebrew word means "to raise up." So what? Passing through the rabbit and to go out the other end, that's not the same thing.

Our other key word here is 'alah, and it is found in some grammatical form on literally every page of the OT. This is because it is a word that encompasses many concepts other than "bring up." It also can mean ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch up, get up, recover, restore, take up, and much more. It is a catch-all verb form describing the moving of something to another place. (The literal rendering here is, "maketh the gerah to 'alah.")

Now in the verses in question, 'alah is used as a participle. Let's look at the other verses where it is used this way (NIV only implies some of these phrases; where in parentheses, the phrase is in the original, sometimes in the KJV):

Josh. 24:17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt....

1 Sam. 7:10 While Samuel was sacrificing (offering) the burnt offering...

Nahum 3:3 Charging cavalry, flashing swords (lifted), and glittering spears!

Isaiah 8:7 ...therefore the Lord is about to bring against them the mighty floodwaters of the River...

2 Chron. 24:14 When they had finished, they brought the rest of the money...

Ps. 135:7 He makes clouds rise (up) from the ends of the earth...

2 Sam. 6:15 ...while he and the entire house of Israel brought the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets. (Similar quote, 1 Chr. 15:28)

So: the Hebrew word is question is NOT specific to the process of regurgitation; it is a phrase of general movement. And related to the specific issue at hand, the rabbit is an animal that does "maketh" the previously digested material to "come" out of the body (though in a different way than a ruminant does) and does thereafter does chew "predigested material"! The mistake is in our applying of the scientific terms of rumination to something that does not require it.

If you want the source where this information is presented (where I found this information) here is ONE website, which I copied and pasted the last part from. I found references in many other places, but this one suffices for the argument.

I know you're probably thinking.... "tektonics, bah it's a 'biased' source."
But read it anyway, it corrects one argument, and well... it would make your debunking more accurate to not include that portion of it.


I have read some of your statements of position regarding Christianity and I quickly found with all due respect, you are either not familiar with Christian doctrine or was very poorly instructed in it as the points as you have written them that you claimed to "debunk" are incorrect, at least as far as what the doctrines and principles of my faith follow.


When it comes to faith, humanity is frail. In our earthly way, we are beings of a physical nature and relate to that which is of a physical nature. To relate to something that is without physical substance or is of a super-natural existence is difficult to comprehend in our finite minds. We require proof or evidence. Absent of either of those, all we have left is faith.

In relationships, whether faith in our friend, our husband, wife, doctor, preacher, priest, or our Lord, without faith, there cannot be a true, confident relationship. Yet no test of faith can exist where all the answers are known. There, knowledge and discernment replace true faith. In any relationship, regardless of whether it is with another person or our Lord, faith must exist in whomever the object of our love may be in order for the relationship to survive because unlike our Heavenly Father, we cannot know what is to come in the future to know where a relationship will lead us. So it is that our faith is weak and frail yet even more so with our Lord who we cannot easily relate to due to our physical nature and His super-natural being. We fall easily, giving up on what we cannot encounter with our limited senses.

Some think it would be so much easier to have faith in our Lord if we could see Him even once. But the reality is, to see Him just once could never be enough. Our desire to see Him and be with Him would then become incomprehensible. Anyone who has ever experienced love knows the strongest desire is to be with the person you love and separation tormenting.  So why can?t we be with Him now you may question? To skip this physical lifetime, which would be necessary in order to be with our Lord, would cancel out all that we would experience, most importantly, all that influences us in the exercise of our God given gift of free will. To be able to choose freely to know Him and love Him as He desires or proceed on our own path just as we choose to enter or avoid any other relationship. Faith to trust, love and devote oneself in that ultimate relationship with Our Lord. The closer we come to knowing Him the stronger our faith, trust, Love and devotion can grow.



Hello, my name is Donny, i love your website and am trying to build refutation to the bible being supported by science.

i have found this interesting geocities cite that claims this is true and would like your take on many of the aspects concerning this.


Dear Winston,

I have just read your life story and I too have gone through the same thing,albeit not as severe. I have had a burning desire to serve Christianity to the point where I have considered ordination. I then picked up a book by Neale Donald Walsch and it made me think about my faith to the point where it does not add up anymore. Your views sum it all up. God is interpreted by all the different religons differently but they are all just different perspectives on the same God.

An excellent article which I hope more people will read.

                                                      Yours Sincerely,

                                                            Nigel Townend

P.S The title of the book is Conversations with God.



Subject:        Real Buddha and Real Christ
Date:   Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:18:03 -0400
Hello Winston,
I sent you a couple emails long time ago about your webpage on
christian arguments.
I really enjoyed reading it and thank you for putting that up.  Last
 time I 
wrote to you I was pretty hostile toward Christianity and was heavily 
influenced by writers like Dawkins.
Since then I have softened up a bit in my atheism and have been reading
of Alan Watts which I feel has introduced me to a better understanding
Buddhism instead of the scratching the surface that western world does
present it.
I understand what you mean by Jesus was not a christian and Buddha was
 not a 
I think Jesus's Gospel or good news never really got out.  If we
 believe he 
was an historical figure then most likely had an experience like
 Guatama as 
a Cosmic understanding of some sort that he could only describe through
religious language that was available to him at that time.  Same with
who was influenced by Hinduism.  If Jesus was alive in India no one
 would of 
put him to death.  Instead people would of clapped their hands and
Everyone is the son of God or Daughter of God.  We are all of the same 
substance of the Universe.
Only in the Hewbrew laws and traditions was it bad to say that.  There
only one cosmic king and we all need to pay homage.  Hindu seems to be
of a cosmic democracy or communism.
Well Just wanted to write and tell you I liked your page and my



Sent: Thu, 17 May 2007 2:27 pm

Subject: Thank you


If I?ve never said so before, I want you to know how much I appreciate your taking time to articulate your thinking about Christianity and to post it on the web.   You?ve created a truly valuable resource!  If you continue writing in the future, you might think about posting at or


I only wish there were more opportunities for public dialogue on this issue.


I, too, am a former fundamentalist and have been writing and doing public speaking in my area (Western Washington).  But I wish there was a broader forum for voices like ours.


All the best,






Your article was incredible.

I'm a 50ish Asian guy who went through a similar

transformation. It took decades until I realized my late teen

episode was never coming back.


You tapped on something: Going through life with a

faulty belief system that the logical mind has to endure

and repress the 1000 year old ignorance. It has to

drive a teen nuts, especially as his brain is growing so

fast, the sneakers don't fit...pow!


The straw that broke the camel's back from turning away

from all religion (save an Einsteinian God) was this absurd

war in Iraq.


I think it was like a born again Christian's feeling of

unshackling all the burdens of a false existence.

I'm a much happier person, determined to be a better

contributer to society without a motive to go to

some kind of heaven and get a reward.


What's so bad about not not having an individual ,

personal , post earth- life 'soul?'


If all of us have a chance going through one existence,

"I'm good with it!"


Thanks for a compelling reading! I'm saving this site!!!



Hi Winston


I wanted to congratulate you on your wonderful and complete work. It has cemented in my mind many of the things that I myself neither had the time to research or the capability to describe. Reading this has just coincided with me experiencing hypnotic regression where so many of my questions about why I am the way I am, were answered. I am on a voyage of discovery and have really benefited from your research.


I had a nervous breakdown about a year ago and since then was just unable to connect in any meaningful way to Christianity. After repeatedly trying to seek god with all my heart I just couldn?t. It was during research into evidence for life after death from the Christian Evidence Society that I came into contact with the various theories around. However the intention of the book was lost because it helped me find mountains of research into the various topics of reincarnation and past lives. In and of themselves, significant evidence against the claims of the bible.


The funny thing in all this though is that just prior to my breakdown, I was training to become a minister in the church of England. It was actually because of my extensive knowledge of the old and new testaments that I could see all of the contradictions and problems that were presented by yourself and others. If it wasn?t for that knowledge I may have just shrugged it off.


Anyway I am just babbling now.


All the best





My Rise to Christianity and Transcendence from It


WOTEGRO is a technology-promotion organization. Our goal is to accelerate the rate of growth of technology and since religions have always hindered its development, we pursue to combat them. We have developed a mechanism that we hope will allow for the rapid decrease in the level of religiousness of the world.


See our website for more information.


We found your website very educational and thought-provoking, and have thus set a link to it. We would appreciate if you could add our organization? URL to your list of links.


There are numerous articles on the subject of religion and science in our site. You are welcome to reproduce them on your website, citing the author. All articles were written by Dr. Charles Sabillon.


There is also a thrilling novel that touches the subjects of religion and science, which can be downloaded for free.


We wish you all the best in your endeavors in this year.


Thank you.


The Board of Directors of Wotegro



Thank you for putting your website together

Debunking Argument of

Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelists


I feel I?m getting very close to your conclusion statement. You putting all this info In one place is very helpful. Thank you very much.







Congratulations on an excellent site.  Your information on evangelical fundamentalist Christianity is the BEST site on the internet.  It spells everything out.  Try to get the search engines to bring it up near the top of searches.


The pictures of the people in Russia who cheated and scammed you do not show.  They are blank with those little red x's in the upper left hand corner.  Can you fix that?


I spent three years living in Palo Alto, CA during the late sixties when I was in the commodity futures brokerage business.  We had an office in the office building at ****************..

I spent many happy weekends in SF riding the cable cars.  What a great time it was to be young in SF back in the sixties.


Thank you





I skimmed over your site debunking Christianity, and it looks fairly good.


Have you seen mine?


And have you seen my book?


We're doing the same things.


I wish you well.



John W. Loftus


Hi Winston,

I am agnostic ex-hindu, who lives in fundamentalist Christian area of New Zealand. Although I never became a christian, I was challenged by some of the christians here to look into the claims of christianity. You can find my testimony here

After engaging in Online Biblical polemics for the last 2 year I have obviously come to the conclusion that Christianity, especially protestant Christainity, cannot be from a divine creator.

I found your article to be very similar to my way of thinking. In fact if I were to prepare a internet blog/website, it would be very much like your article

I really like your article namely because of following main reasons

1)Like you I seek to understand as why fundamentalist believe what they believe, especially the biblical aspect of it. When I was reading the your section on Christian World View, I felt like I was reading my own mind
2)I noticed you also refered to many website, to which I commonly refer to others such as Dick Stephen Brainwashing Article
3)You also talk about the various denomination differences and actually talk about the biblical reasons behind it. Sometimes which I also commonly do when Christian apologetist try to shoot down their "brother in faith" like the catholics or JW.
4)You discussed about the difference in theology between the two books and the Jewish side of the Messiah debate, something which many atheist do not discuss.

However I would like to present a small critique, which I hope you find helpful. You may ignore it and  forgive me for doing so, but as a fellow freethinker I hope you wouldn't mind

1)There are also three types of Christs in the Gospels. According to Mark, Christ was a man. According to Matthew and Luke, he was a demigod, while John insists that he was God himself.
Well with regards to Gospel of John, there is no verse in there which explicity mentioned that Jesus was God. I am NOT denying the verses which strongly imply the divinity such as opening chapter. However I would like to point out there are other verses in the Gospel of John where Jesus openly admits that he had a God and he doesn't anything against the wishes of his father. If end of Gospel of John states the book was written so that we believe that Jesus was the Messiah not God

2)You also did not mention that there not a single verse in the Christian Bible which explicitly says God is trinity, save for one vague one, or supports the Nicean Creed ie God is composed of Father, Son, HS and they are co-equal in power, status and knowledge. 
Even the great Saint Paul who claims to have received his Gospel from Jesus himself NEVER refers to him as God. In fact in all his writing he treats Jesus and God as two seperate entity and repeatedly calls him Man 1 Timothy 2:5. He also explicitly mentions that Jesus submits to the authority of God. So much so for the co-equalness theory.
The Old Testament offcourse refutes the concept of Trinity completely

3)I am glad you mentioned Hell is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament, and that we have no reason to believe the writers of the Hebrew Bible ever did. You did mention about verse Dan 12, however even then this is once again very vague, since it does not mention anything about Eternal Torment or Torture.  Check out this topic Jewish Forum

4)You did talk about Satan as such, but once again I wish you elaborated that in the Old Testament there is no such concept of the Devil ie a fallen angel who opposes God. Satan is nothing more than a obedient angel working in God's court. Satan never exceeds God's authority.

5)I wish you had talked about how both Genealogies itself show that Jesus cannot be Jewish messiah. See my post about regarding this here

I would like to share with some web links which I believe has seem extremely good information and form the bulk of my reference material when I debate with Christians


Also I debate in the following forum under the name of "SkepticOfBible". If you debate online, then I would be quite honored if you could join any of these forums (This forum is closing, but it has some excellent material)




As a newly deconverted individual I find your "book" on geocities

possibly one of the most complete resources for debunking.  I was a

believer for about 20 years.  A friend of mine began throwing little pot

shots at my faith (Southern Baptist).  He is an agnostic and one of the

only people I can talk to about this issue.  I live in Central West

Virginia.  I am in the "buckle" of the Bible Belt.  Everyone here

accepts the Bible without ever reading it.  My father is an expert on

the King James Version of the bible.  He has the ability to rationalize

through any other religion or denomination.  He is unable to see the

"craziness" of what he believes.  He can't be reasoned with at all on

the subject.  He dismisses proven scientific fact (rabbits chewing cud)

as wrong, because the bible says it.  Is that not the most ignorant

thing you have ever heard?  I go through a great deal of debating with

christians that believe what they think without knowing why.  It is so

difficult to tear down someones belief system that has no foundation.

It is easy to dispute what they say, but changing their minds, well that

is like parting the Red Sea.  Thank you for your contribution to free




Hello Mr Wu

You and I have never met, but I am very grateful for your wonderful article "Debunking the arguments of evangelical christians". I am an ex-christian and a spiritual seeker, and a friend recommended your article to me to help me heal what remaining ties I had to my former religion and thus allowing me to move beyond it.

Though your article is very long, when I started reading it, I could not stop! I was nodding with every paragraph and every section, seeing answers to questions I had been looking for. Many of your comments and observations were dead on, and were also quite funny and thought provoking to boot as well. What's the sign of a dangerous book? A book that keeps you up until 3:00 in the morning. Likewise, what's the sign of a very well done article? An article that you cannot stop reading, even to go to the bathroom.


You sir, are to be commended for helping those who have left christianity to heal their lives as they seek to release and leave behind harmful doctrine. In my two years of spiritual seeking after leaving christianity, your article is hands down one of the best about christianity that I have ever read (tied only with this page I work at a public library and thus have access to hundreds of books on religion and spirituality, yet very, very few are as helpful as the one article that you have written. There is even a book titled "Leaving the fold" that is for former fundamentalists leaving their religion, yet your article is arguably better and more useful then the entire book.


You have helped me so much in my search for spiritual truth. Your article helped me in so many ways that to list them out would take much longer then either of us most likely have patience for. I still believe in God, just not bible-god, and your article helps me to see that bible-god is a myth created by man while God, whomever or whatever he or she is, is infinitely greater and loving then the false god seen in so many bible atrocities.


I thank you, and wish you all the best in life.



P.S. If you are interested, you may read some of my writtings and thoughts on this site ( I go by the username IanD. In addition, I have written an online book about spirituality that you can read here if you are interested(



Mr Wu,

    I just finished reading your website. I picked up some excellent  new arguments that I have never seen before. I unfortunately live in fundamentalist land (about 50 miles from Lynchburg,Va - Jerry Falwell) and this fundamentalist crap is like a virus. I actually have been approched by total strangers (one even knocked on my door one saturday but he didn't want to hang around for long - and I was just getting started!) and asked "If die today will you go to heaven or hell" (I told the fellow who knocked on my door hell then he knew where I was going and left. I don't think he wanted me to confuse the young man who was with him in training). It's pretty bad around here - you have to watch what you say as you might offend bosses and/or others who will talk to bosses so I restrict my discussions to trusted friends.

    I personally consider all churches corrupt as organizations but many of the individuals as fine and well-meaning people but terribly mislead and manipulated.

I'm not an atheist but probably a deist. I associated with Jehovah's Witnesses for about 2 years but never committed - I think too much and question too much and of course the reason I got temporarily involved was the death of my brother - there's that tragedy

that makes you vunerable!

    I must say that I did learn alot about the bible during this time. The witnesses were an offshoot of the adventist movement of the !800's and their theology is significantly different than the standard fundamentalist. For a totally different perspective on "hell",the immortal soul (no such thing), etc. I strongly recommend Ray Smith's site This guy has nothing to do with any religious establishment but he does a good job of debunking the standard fundamentist claptrap. You could get some really good info to debunk Falwell type of fundamentalism using the bible itself.

    I see the current fundamentalist movement as VERY dangerous. These people are totally blind to what they are doing. We are currently in a religious war that I don't think will end anytime soon - people are just stupid with religion!

    There are well educated people ( in the sciences) that I work with who think that they're going to be raptured at any time! We're not talking backwoods bumkins but otherwise reasonable people. This is what worries me. The fundies have finally figured out a way to get to these people - the rapture. Have you noticed in recent years how hellfire has been downplayed (at least it has around here) and how this left behind/Israel crap has taken its place ? Left behind even has it wrong - there's not one scripture in the bible that says that the bad guys are left behind but there are several that say the opposite (if interested let me know - I can find a website).

    The day that The US invaded Iraq I was seething and the fundies were smiling as

one collegue at work replied "Jesus is coming" (This person is still waiting to be raptured but I believe she'll have a very long wait). These fundies get excited ANYTIME there is conflict in the middle east regarding Israel and/or the USA. During the 1st Gulf war sales of End of Times Type books skyrocketed.

    What is really interesting is the significance of 9/11. When this tragic event occurred, it struck me that these guys are really pissed about something. Assuming that our government was lying as to why ("They hate us because we're rich") I did some research - actually quite a bit. I figured that religion (Muslim and Christian) had something to do with it . Turns out that 9/11 wasn"t a random date. In a Bin Laden tape put out shortly after 9/11 ( Oct 7 or 9, 2001 or thereabouts) Bin Laden mentions "after 80years of humiliation the sword of justice has struck the US" or something very close to that -do a web search and you can find the actual transcript. Well, what happened about 80 years ago ? Sept.11,1922 -on this date the British Mandate (giving the Jews a homeland in Palestine) went into effect and the officials were sworn in. In other words, this was the day that The native people lost their soverignty and the beginning of what is now Israel. The really sad thing is that the British and French promised the Arabs their independence if they fought against the Ottoman Turks (who were allied with Germany and controlled much of the middle east for 400 years or so) When the war was over, instead of giving them their independence, they got occupation (in Palestine until 1948, The Brits also created Iraq and occupied it for about 10 years). Why did they want a homeland for the Jews ? A bunch of fundamentalists in the government wanted to help "Bible Prophecy" along . I guess their god couldn"t do it on his own. This is a very brief summary if you want more info I can give you website locations. It gets a lot deeper but this gives some  understanding on the Middle East madness. Talk about self-fullfilling prophecy!! The problem is the fundies are getting alot of people hurt or killed so that they can be raptured. I'm pretty certain, given your fundamentalist background, you know this story. So Falwell and his brothers are all trying to get poor Jews to go to Israel (Wings of Eagles program), knowing , from their teaching, that 2/3 of the Jews in Israel will murdered. Wouldn't that make the fundies accessories to murder ? They are so "holy". Do any of these people ever stop and THINK about what they are doing ?





Dear Winston,

I loved your story.

It touched me deeply.

I loved your thoughts on your desire to learn.

I think that is how I feel.

I am going through some stuff right now and I think it is because I am to come to a more understanding and knowledge.

Yes, I feel my soul wants to evolve to a higher awareness like you so well stated.

Thank you so much for your thoughts.




Mr. Wu,  I came upon your website and want to express my respect and admiration for your logic and your writings.

I am the author of two books: A Deity for the New Millennium and FEAR FAITH FACT FANTASY. Although I never accepted, even in my youth, that god could be as cruel and illogical as the preacher tried to get me to believe in, I kept my mouth shut. {mostly}

In my advancing age, seeng the many harmful effects of religion, I decided to write about god and religion. Though my books are not as erudite as yours, I believe you would be intersted in my simple, elementary, logical approach.

Again thanks for your writings.




Hi There,


I just looked over your writings tonight and I am in agreement with you. In fact, I am very passionate about how intolerant and fanatical evangelists are. I have done much research on my own about this subject due to my own experiences of being harassed and threatened by evangelists my whole life.


As a publicist as well as a person who is very connected to the media, I am in a position to expose the truth about this fast growing "religious" group, or more accurately, cult.


I would love talk to you and learn more about your research. My numbers are <snip> and <snip>.






Dear Mr. Wu. Thanks for your webpage debunking Christianity.  This is the first time I?ve seen so much info on one page. Someone needed to do it.  If I had had all that info available when I was in high school, I could have easily de-brainwashed myself of my Christian indoctrination, which would have saved me from years of misery. Good job!





Thanks very much for sending me your updated link, as well as the link to

"Debunking the arguments of Christian Fundamentalists."


I read your essay on fundamentalism and thought you made many good points.

Still, a couple of minor critical comments occurred to me. I mention these

simply as someone who is interested in the history and development of

religion. I am not a Christian or a member of any church; my viewpoint on

these things is too ecumenical to accept a single set of doctrines.


1. You say that there is no Old Testament tradition for a messiah figure who

would suffer and die, but I think it could be argued that the Suffering

Servant of Isaiah fits the bill. Explicit references to this part of Isaiah

are made in Matt 8:17 and 12:18-21. The Suffering Servant may have been

meant originally as a metaphor for Israel, but by the time of Jesus it seems

to have been interpreted messianically by some Jews. As I recall, some of

the Dead Sea Scrolls also refer to this idea.


2. You say that Paul's letters don't refer to Jesus as a person who lived on

earth recently - he might have lived hundreds of years earlier. This seems

doubtful, given 1 Cor 15:3-7, which speaks of the various appearances Paul

has heard about, some allegedly reported by still-living eyewitnesses. In

this passage Paul also mentions Cephas (Peter) and James as leaders of the

Jesus movement. James is identified in several other texts (including

Jospehus - *not* the disputed passage, but another one) as the brother of

Jesus, so it would seem clear enough that Paul believed Jesus had lived and

died recently enough to leave behind a still-living brother (James) and a

still-living disciple (Cephas/Peter).


As I say, fairly minor points.


My own approach to these things follows Marcus Borg, a liberal Jesus

scholar. In The Meaning of Jesus (co-authored with N. T. Wright), Borg

contrasts precritical naivete, a childish state of mind, with postcritical

naivete: "To speak from my own experience, when I heard the Christmas

stories as a child, I took it for granted that Jesus really was born of a

virgin and that there really were a magic star, wise men, birth in a stable

[etc.] ... I simply heard them as true stories. Then we enter the stage of

critical thinking, which involves evaluating things we believed and were

taught in childhood ... We are no longer able to hear them as true stories.

In our time, this stage is intensified and often prolonged by the modern

identification of truth with factuality ... Skeptics and biblical

literalists alike ... are often 'fact fundamentalists': if something didn't

happen, it isn't true ... [But] beyond critical thinking is postcritical

naivete ... the ability to hear the central stories of the Christian

tradition once again as true stories. Importantly, postcritical naivete is

not a return to precritical naivete, for one knows that the stories may not

be historically factual. But one also knows that their truth does not depend

upon their historical factuality." (pp. 247-8)


In other words, Borg sees the deep meaning in the stories as true, even

though the events themselves never happened or didn't happen in precisely

that way. He quotes a Native American storyteller as saying, "I don't know

if it happened this way or not, but I know that this story is true." (p.



This makes more sense to me than "fact fundamentalism" of any stripe.


Thanks again for the links. Good luck with your writing.




Michael Prescott



Hi Winston,


Thanks for your emails - I'm sorry I had not got back to you earlier, but I wanted to read your testimonial first. When I read it I was almost convinced I had read it before somewhere. Has it already been on a website? I had a lot of "deja-vu" with the OCD and Schizophrenia episodes etc. Either I had read yours or another one very like it. Your name is familiar too, but maybe I've come across you when I was lurking on various newsgroups etc. possibly However some parts of your story were not familiar, so I was trying to find a story by another that might have been it. Indeed I remember recommending a story and URL just like yours to another person with a similar background about a or two year ago. I've spent a couple of hours looking for that email using various keyword searches but with no luck! Anyway, if I do find it I'll let you know about the other person and hopefully the other similar story I found out there.


Ah! Wouldn't you know it - I've just written all that and I found the email. %-) It seems I read your story in April 2001 when I found it at which I see you've linked to on the URL you gave me anyway! Oh well, I've copied the correspondence in which I mentioned your story at the end of this email.


Certainly I'll be happy to link directly to you, maybe it would help if I put up a sentence about your journey. How about "Winston describes what it's like to combine Christian fundamentalism with mental health problems and how he recovered from them both." Would that be okay? I think it would be of interest to others I know about who have described struggling through depression as a Christian and how they are coping now. Whilst I obviously found your story valuable enough already to want to recommend it to others the only reason I wouldn't have linked directly to you before would have been because was already on a webring I link to, and to link to everybody would make for a lot of links! That's why in general I like to link to collections of stories or webrings. However if you want more exposure I'm happy to oblige.


I look forward to reading more of your treatise too, although it might take me some time!






Leaving Christianity



Dear Mr. Wu:


I have only just discovered your extensive web site.  From what I have read of it thus far, you very accurately depict the mentality of fundamentalism and you obviously know what it is like to undergo extensive brainwashing.


I consider myself a Pantheist and Theosophist.  I did extensive research as you have done in order to rid myself of this Christian brainwashing. Too bad we have to go to such lengths, but that is what it takes in many cases. 





Mr Wu:


  I was gratified to read your essays regarding your own Christian experience and de-conversion narrative. You also debunk fundamentalism in a concise logical way w/o the usual ranting and raving that so many ex-Christians do.


  This all hits close to home given that I am an ex-Xian and at one time was a ardent layman in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod( not fundamentalist per se; they are like BibleBeaters with High Church trappings). I was amazed that so many well-educated people within actually believed in all the cosmology, metaphysics of the orthodox Church, including a full-professor of chemistry who adhered to the six 24 hour day fable of creation. This makes me believe that the scientist Richard Dawkins has a valid point when he dubbed religion as a *mind virus* given that cerebral people can fall into dogmaticism, fundamentalism.

   My own de-conversion began when I was puzzled by all the contradictions I seen in the Bible and didn't accept the Lutheran explanation as the dichotomy between Law&Gospel or their favorite phrase -"it's a Mystery". Subsequently I researched the history of the Bible, how it came into being, plus Christianity in it's early formation which led me to believe that it was just a power move by a Roman emperor, and began to doubt the historical Christ as well. For a long time I kept my deep skepticism to myself and played the 'cultural Christian' gambit until I finally left the church following Good Friday services last year. Now I cannot believe that I' believed'. Presently I would classify myself as agnostic and hope that the religion virus remains in remission as long as I walk this Earth. If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to choose a world religion it would be Taoism largely because it is non-theistic, doesn't missionize and is concerned about the here and now and doesn't have puritianical ethical proscriptions like the Xians, Muslims, and even the Buddhists do.

  Thanks for reading my own soapbox meanderings and thanks again for publishing your essays.


 Mitch Bailly



Dear Winston,


I learned of your "testimonial" page from my friend Ed Babinski.  I want to congratulate you for your insight in breaking away from religious fundamentalism, and your courage in telling the story.  Many of your arguments and reasoning will stand as an excellent resource for me.


I understand how painful it was to break away, because I had a similar one in my early 20's.  If you would like, please read my story at


You will find that the awakening will take the rest of your life -- at least that it how it is for me, each day a new discovery.  Good luck with it.


- Kenneth E. Nahigian



Hi Winston,


Thanks for writing 


I enjoyed your personal testimony about leaving fundamentalism at your



...especially this part:   "My mom... took me to see some Spiritualist

healers and Taoist-like temples to try to get help for the mental     illness

I had for 2 years. Three Different spiritualists who didn't know each

other told her that they could 'see' two souls inhabiting me for a past

karmic crime I committed against them. She was instructed by the leaders

of a Taoist-like temple to perform these strange exorcism rites, which

involved putting leaflet spells above the bedroom I slept in and having me

take baths in some hot herbal water tossed in with yellow spell leaflets.

It was all weird to me and my Christian world view taught that Satan was

behind these kind of things. But I thought oh well, being a Christian

never helped me through those 2 hellish years anyway, so why not give

Satan a chance at helping me?"

Your testimony parallels that of another former fundie friend of mine,

Will Bagley, who lives in Washington state.  Will was "born again," but

later read the great Catholic mystics, then the great Eastern mystics, and

today studies Taoism, vegetarianism, meditation, mental and bodily

healing, life extension, channeling, massage, etc.  Will sends out a

regular e-newsletter on those topics.  You two should meet for coffee and

tell me all about what you discussed! Will's photo and testimony about how

he left fundamentalism can be found in a book I edited, Leaving the Fold:

Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists (Prometheus Books, 1995). Though my

book was published by that skeptical organization, it included testimonies

of former fundamentalists who remained Christians, though more moderate

and liberal, as well as the testimonies of two folks who left

fundamentalism for Wicca and eastern mysticism, respectively. Only the

final third of the book contains the testimonies of former fundamentalists

who ecame agnostics and atheists. I thanked Prometheus for including such

a broad range of former fundie testimonies.

Today there is a great website run by Steve Locks that features the

testimonies of many former fundies, possibly the most well indexed and

widest collection of such testimonies on the web.  His site is simply

named, "Leaving Christianity."  Easy to remember, check it out by simply

googling, "Leaving Christianity."  It's number one.

Will and yourself also agree that the skeptics are too skeptical.  Will is

quite well read and also quite deeply into spiritual practices, and I am

sure you two will find much to talk about, wish I was there to listen!

Maybe send me a cassette tape of your conversation! And play a game of

chess too! Why not some speed chess?  (Will once won the championship of a

large prestigious chess club in New Jersey, but hasn't played in years.

Like Will, I was a top ranked high school chess player.)


Edward T. Babinski



Hi Winston,


I just read your story on the web, what a lot you have been through & well done for getting out of it!  I went through a similar kind of experience - I was a Christian fanatic for almost 2 years, evangelized & witnessed to everyone around me, and guess how many converts I won - zero!  All I did was make myself look like a total idiot, I cringe when I look back at that period in my life it's so embarassing.


The end of your story was so positive, and I was interested in your conclusions about the universe and everything, I practically arrived at the same conclusions you did.  I've been trying to induce an OBE for years - almost achieved it once but still trying....very difficult!


I've written loads of stuff about all this (including my own story) at which you're welcome to read if you like.





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