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Reader Responses to My Rise to
Christianity and Transcendence From It and
Debunking
Christian Circular Arguments and Assumptions
(Sorted in ascending order, newest at the top)
Hi,
My name is Chudney. I read your article on "debunking christianity"
recently and it made me think, research and come to my OWN conclusions about
what i'm "supposed" to believe in (grew up in a non-denominational
church programmed basica lly to believe in these things but was never as
zealous as you used to be -read your bio too-)your article also helped me
tremendously with my hell-phobia that every christian at one time probably has
or has had, for all these things I have to thank you. I had questioned
everything about the world except my own religion.
that being said, you may or may not believe in what some people call
"conspiricy theories" ( they are not theories unfortunately a great
amount of them are truths just not accepted or cared about by the general
public) But alot of the things going on in the world ( corporate
greed,government corruption, sexualization of
everything(music,children,etc),objectivication of women, depletion of human rights
and freedoms,) stems from groups of wealthy individuals who feel they are
entitled to the control of the world and its doings because of wealth, some
people (i'm not sure about this though) say they use satanic and otherworldly
forces to perpetuate their wealth greed and control. So I'm asking you if
there's no Satan and there's still this immense cancerous evil in the world,
what would be another explanation for all of this? who else would cause such
things? ( if you don't believe me assume for this questions sake all the
things I am typing to you are fact)
Hello and
greetings,
I just recently
visited your website about debunking Christianity, and I was reading it
practically all day. I then found my way to your testimony, and read it in its
entirety.
I'm writing
this on impulse, so bear with me here:
Our lives are
almost completely parallel.
From being raised
in Christianity, to having great dreams of saving souls for Christ and making a
difference in the world, feeling a heavier burden than any (The thought of
loved ones being consumed by the fires of hell), I pretty much lost my mind and
also have a form of OCD (I cried out to God for months, flat on my face, crying
and begging for mercy, saying "Where are You?! Why aren't you in my
life???", after and during those times deep deppression and apathy (as
well as abandonment) were the themes of my life.
After
highschool, I met this wise old man whom I worked with at a Wal mart (of
all places) and being around him just gave me this feeling of great and divine
peace, I don't know how else to describe it. He was very spiritual, but never
taught me a thing. He just encouraged me to look outside the box and to think
for myself and ASK QUESTIONS. (I always did on the inside, but now I had the
courage to openly face my issues with the flaws of Christianity). And so I did.
During those times, I also met my wife and Twin Flame. We met online. Her and I
went through those tough times together, so I was fortunate about that.
Together we researched other spiritual paths, as we still do to this day.
It was about
one year ago since I shed my religious shell.
And according
to what is on your website, our beliefs match up by about 95%
I apologize, I
didn't intend on writing my life story to you, but that is what my heart
told me to do.
I wanted to
write to you because I felt spiritually connected to you. I know it sounds
strange, but somehow I feel as if we are brothers.
Please take
care,
-Sage
I discovered this website while doing some research into christian fundementalism and Atheistic Dogma. I was blown away by how well the arguments against christianity were, specifically because they lacked emotion fueled "Logic".
Hi,
I read your arguments and thought them scholarly and well thought out.
Reading the Bible verbatim will just naturally create inconsistencies. However,
I've discovered a written anomaly in the writings that explains the method
that should be used to interpret so there are no contradictions.
The Fundamentalists don't like me either because I can prove their
religions are wrong.
I think you might like my approach to interpreting and I've attached one of my
books, which I believe is safe to open because I
regularly scan my computer.
Dawn
Hi Winston...
Thanks for commenting on Christian
Fundamentalism... I have a similar story to your's. Breaking free from it's
brainwashing, that turned me into an 'Amen, Hallelujah Robot' has been
difficult.
Pages I've authored you may find interesting...
http://www.vernon-art-and-opinion.co.cc/who_we_are.html
and
http://www.mental-illness.co.cc/Personal_Mental_Illness_History.html
It's good to know I'm not the only one to fight
back, and tell the story.
Glen
(
Hi Winston,
I ran into your website because I was researching Christianity and I have to
say thank you! What you say about American women and esp. the list of 10 reason
why you're forced to look abroad are so true. This is coming from me, a
white Irish-German male who's in the computer field, been told he is good
looking, 5' 11" and broad shoulders, yet I'm not rich, always had a belly
and the key thing, and I'm guessing the same is true of you, above average
intelligence. Women in the
All I know is, I am frustrated as hell and I'm no longer interested in them.
One question: Are there some more voluptuous women out there in Asia or Russia?
They all seem too skinny and I like the big booty (but NOT overweight).
Dave
P. S. I skimmed over some of what you wrote about Christianity and all I
have to say is that the vast majority of content of Paul's letters are
contradictory to Jesus' teachings (this is what I was specifically looking for
and I heard that authors like Leo Tolstoy believe it as well) and that a
group of men canonized scripture, basically out of political pressure and
mutual interest and benefit. So, I am just as fascinated if not more so
in what was LEFT OUT of the Bible as much as what should not have been
included.
Hello again Winston,
I just fully read your story, "My rise from Christiantiy..."
Wow! I can't believe how similar our stories are down to minute
details! What a BIG HELP it is!
But I do have a question. After you had your breakdown, how did you find
the ability to get back into Christianity? Did you suppress the thought
of your relatives going to
hell? After my breakdown, I never had the capacity to get
back into Christianity though I definitely felt all the guilt, shame,
etc.
Another thing I'd like to mention, and I know this is just my opinion.
Based solely on your story, I don't think you have/had schizophrenia. Just OCD and
depression. It's not that important to your story, but I like to clarify
for people on OCD since I've had such a horrendous case of it myself.
This prompted me to work with people with all kinds of mental health
issues.
3rd, I'm reading through your arguments against Christianity and find them
brilliant. But as you remember, Christians thrive on having an answer for
every proposition made against their faith. That said, unless I'm
misunderstanding them, I see some minor imperfections (though the fewest I've
ever seen!) in your arguments that may give Christians an excuse to discount
you all together. Don't misunderstand me. I think 99.9% of your
arguments are PERFECT and will shake any thinking Christian into either fear or
intellectual honesty. But if you are open to it, I'd like to send you my thoughts
after more thorough reading. Of course, that's only if you even have time to
look at them. Here is an example some Christians will try to call you
on:
In your argument you said, "Fundamentalists love to cite 2 Timothy 3:16;
however, the ?Scriptures?
referred to in that verse refer to the Old Testament..."
But take a look at this link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?ID=1210
Of course, that proves nothing, but it might be a case for the Christian to
dismiss you.
If you have time, tell me what you think.
Regards,
Mike
Mr. Wu,
Thank you for an informative, enlightening and thorough series of essays about Fundamentalist Christianity.
Though I consider myself a liberal Christian (so much so that many
would say I wasn't Christian at all!), I have had many experiences with the
Fundamentalist church and it's people and theology.
I do have one question---you do an excellent job of refuting almost every
argument I've seen from the Fundamentalists, but there is one aspect that you
haven't touched upon (if you did and I missed it, please guide me to it).
How do you answer the person who is positive that they have actually seen
Christ, whether in a vision, dream, or almost as a material being with their
own eyes? I know I have been with people who claim that they became
"born again" after such an experience (including two of my
siblings). Unlike arguments against biblical
inerrancy, wandering stars, talking snakes, etc., it seems that
there can be no argument that would convince these people that what they
experienced was anything but real. In your experience, have you come
across this sort of phenomenon, and what do you make of it?
Thanks,
Russell Sinclair
Dear Winston,
I am truly
inspired by your story "My Rise to Christianity and Transcendence from
it"
(https://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Christian_Story.htm)
and I am sure
many others will be too. Like you, I was diagnosed with mental illness five
years ago and am now fully recovered.
Winston, I am
currently working on my second book entitled "Rich Mental Health", a
compilation of success stories of well known and ordinary people around the
world who have triumphed over mental illness despite the overwhelming odds
(sample attached). I believe that your contributions will be of immense value
and great inspiration to those who are still struggling to recover from mental
illness.
Hence, I would
like to invite you to be a contributor for my upcoming book. Essentially, it
will be a 5 page narrative inclusive of your favorite photo (optional). The
questions below serve as a guide in writing your story.
1.
How and when (at what age) were you first diagnosed with mental illness (your
diagnosis)?
2.
What were the signs and symptoms of your illness?
3.
What are the key ingredients to your successful recovery?
If agreeable,
hope to receive your contributions, latest by February 2. Meanwhile, should you
have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
Respectfully
yours
Rita
Personal
website: www.ritagoh.com
Hi Winston,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, sorry it has taken me a while to
respond, I'm usually faster. Thanks for you kind words on the blog.
I came to New Age beliefs naturally and gradually, with however a few sudden
dramatic experiences. I was raised amongst an evangelical family, very
spiritually alive, however extremely fundamentalist in the realm of dogma and
doctrine. From a young age I seeked to be able to seperate Spirituality
from Religion, instictively wanting to keep the Baby, but through out the bath
water. I always loved the teachings of Jesus, but found them very
difficult to reconcile with the rest of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament.
As I entered my teens I became interested in Psychology, as I have always had a fascinating
dream life (I started having pre-cognitive dreams at a young age, as well as
frequent lucid dream, and flying dreams). Soon I discoverd Carl Jung and
the concept of a Collective Unconscious, and soon
after I started hearing about ParaPsychology
and so forth. I first experienced Meditation in the end of High School, and I had
an amazing experience first off.
After finishing school I had a rough ride, which slowly descended into my own
personal hell over a period of several years. I was very angry with
Christians in general, yet I still believed in the Paranormal. Neither
was I entirely convinced by New Age either, I was yet to read the serious
literature in this regard, I had just encountered some people with New Age
beliefs who hadn't quite convinced me yet. I displayed a magnetic
attraction to Buddhism, yet I did not seriously look into this until later.
Some years later, I started getting Reiki to help me with a few problems and this
instantly gave me faith in the Supernatural, explelling most of my doubts by
the direct experience of Subtle Energies and a clear demonstration of Mediumship.
I had just begun reading seriously, and this started to consume most of my free
time. I read and read and read, and my theories developed and evolved
further and further. When I started Yoga, I knew I had found what I was looking for,
then I read the Bhagavad-Gita and I fell in love with Yoga & Vedanta Mystic
Philosophy (If you ever read the Gita, just avoid the Hare Krishna (ISKON)
version, it's very poor and highly biased, kind of like Christian Fundamentalists).
Since then I have tried to follow this path as much as possible, I still
stumble, I am human, yet I have tasted the Divinity within, and I sincerely
believe there is no highly goal than the pursuit of self-realisation and the
service of mankind. I also attend Spiritualist Churches regularly, they
have great services, lectures and Meditation classes.
Earlier this year I was reading alot about the historical context of
Christianity and I came upon Kenneth Humphreys website www.jesusneverexisted.com
. I found it to be by far the best source of information of it's
kind I had come across (I had recently been to a lecture on a similar topic)
and I think it had a link through to your website. I then read through
your site, very impressed, however as I mentioned, I would love to see it
expanded. (However, kudos to you as you have done a lot more so far than
I have eh!)
I'm not suprised to find that Christians use circular reasoning to debate
with you, I've found the same. In fact that was the reason I put that
brief post on my blog. I am looking for people with whom I
can test ideas & arguments, to see what really works. I have a grand
plan for a huge website divided into layers of detail, in a
similar manner to Kenneth's website, with every fact referenced. The
main point is to present the different views side-by-side, as I feel doing
this will allow truth to shine through. The blog is kind of a
stepping stone to this greater goal. So, I'm looking for people who
feel similarly to myself about the importance and significance of these issues,
even or especially if they don't agree with me on everything. I
would like to get a team together so different people can specialize in
different areas and give the various topics the room and detail they
require. Particullarly, I would like the project to be a vehicle
through which many different researches and writers can come together
for the common good, contribute their work into one source so a holistic big
picture can be drawn from their various fields of research. I must
say though, any contributions however great or small I appreciate. Whilst
I would love to find people to work side by side with me, even the occasional
comment or email would be great. I do have a few people that have promised
to work with me, but are as yet to come through due to other commitments.
I am from the bottom of the Land Down Under, beautiful
I am very interested in NDE's. Several years ago I read throught the
whole of Kevin William's site http://near-death.com/ ,
I think it comes up at the top of a google search. The site is quite
good, he describes himself as a Christian Universalist, basically New Age with
Christian Mythological contexts, really a common element in NDE reports as most
of the people come from either Christian backgrounds or a society with
Christian underpinnings (Most Atheists are quite familiar with Christians
concepts and cosmology for example). I also read several books on the
topic. Thanks for the links, keep them coming. I noticed on your
website you mention Michael Talbots book 'The Holographic Universe', that is one of my
very favourites, part of what I would like to do with the Blog and eventual
website is to expand upon his book. Check out the attached ebook,
Dreamtank. It's from an Idealist that I know. I have alot of
criticisms of it as it is currently, but overall I strongly support what they
are doing. If you are interested in being involved in Dreamtank, contact
Be-Ing at dreamtankgateway@gmail.com
Thank you for responding to my email. Please keep in touch.
God Bless,
Hari Om,
Jim
Hi Winston,
I have read through your website debunking Christianity and was overall very
impressed. I was brought up in an evangelical family and now I'm very
interested in inter-faith dialogue from an Eastern / New Age aproach. I
have started a blog www.theparadigmexperiment.blogspot.com/ as a precursor
to making a detailed website. I found myself agreeing with most of what
you wrote, however I'd love to see it expanded out into greater detail, and
getting Christians to debate it point by point with you. Would you be
interested in working on this with me?
Thanks,
Jim
hey man just congratulating you on your website. the one
that refutes all the christian arguments.
at the moment im an ex christian, the amount of stuff i know about the bible
and all the theological problems makes it impossible for me to go back to
christianity.
you brought up so many of the hiccups i had with christianity, and it was cool
to see that someone else was also brave enough to detail these problems.
im currently going to a deconversion phase right now, and im pretty sure that
my christian friends are noticing my change in attitude.
thanks again for the site, it was an awesome read
Hey Winston,
Its Calvin.
So I have been reading your emails on and off. I find some of them really interesting.
In fact when I first visited your website last year and read about your depression and OCD related to christianity, it struck a chord in me.
I was also once a VERY committed christian. And I have actually been down that road that you described in your website.
On top of that, I not only had OCD but I first had bipolar disorder that is religiously inspired.
As I was going through these 2 problems in my life, it feels like I have been cut off from the rest of humanity. It feels like hell.
But I managed to handle this two destructive personality disorder without any medication or treatment from any doctor or psychiatrists.
It took me years.
Its not that I didn't wanted to. Its just that when I was going through it I didn't know that it can be treated medically and psychiatically.
I only found out that I had these 2 disorders
after I have ( through trial and error ) begin to 'heal '
( they are not really a diseases ) myself of it.
When my mind was back to normal I got to know about bipolar disorder when I was watching an episode of Oprah Winfrey.
I got to know that I had OCD when I read about your story in your website. Thanks.
I know exactly why you said you found a new sense of clarity of mind and an ability to articulate when you have gotten yourself out of OCD.
I also did gain a considerable measure of the abovesaid abilities as I was recovering from those 2 disorders.
I believe people like you and me ( and others with similar experiences ) have a certain depth of knowledge of the human mind and emotions after having plumming its depths ( in despair ) and soaring its heights ( in mania, if you had bipolar ) , thanks to the nature of the disorder that afflicted us :)
Because we have been through such experiences, we are in a good position to help others who are in the same journey.
I believe there are many other christians ( and non christians ) who are going through the same things.
Somehow these forms of disorder are common in christians. Maybe I am wrong.
Because I have been through these experiences and have overcame it I am now a stronger person. On top of that I have also discovered my life purpose or goal.
I am going to become a personal development motivator and trainer.
I believe my story and the lessons learnt would be very useful to others. Perhaps it might stir some away from committing suicide.
So I would like to ask you if you know of any institution in the US ( or otherwise ) or person that would offer some kind of internship/training that would lead to some form of legitimacy ( certification ?) which would put me in a position to become a motivator/trainer myself?
I have surfed the net for some answers and there are MYRIADS.
Since you are an American, I thought you might have some
good ideas or recommendations as you are familiar with things in the
Secondly, you have made quite a good case about how wonderful life is in the Philipines that I am considering of visiting for the first time. ;)
If I were to visit the philipines for a few weeks to 6 months , is there any job opening or opportunies to make money ( for living and holiday expenses ) for me there; or perhaps even for training.
I am a law graduate from the
My plan is to get some training and experience in the
I know my life story is going to bless a lot of people.
ps: I have not describe in detail my experiences of those 2 disorders I had and how I actually got out of it
because it would be too long for an email.
You can share this email with others or post it in your forum if you want to.
Yours sincerely,
Calvin
-------------------------------------------------------
Hi Winston,
I read your story today, found it by accident......
I'm afraid the brand of Christianity you began with as a youth was well
corrupted. For example: What will happen at death to a person if they
never heard the gospel? God will judge them based on the law he has
written in their hearts. If they heard the gospel and reject the Holy
Spirit's working within them - then they have sinned, rejecting Christ.
Well reading your story, our heavenly Father showed me that you were
inhabited by spirits upon your visit to
your relatives angered Satan's demons (spirits). In fact they still
inhabit you to this day. When you have children - they will pass from
you to them. May I suggest you forget about the church and all of the
false Christian teachings and begin a new?
Did you know there exists two Bibles? One, the 1611/1769 King James is
the same as was first translated to English - not one word added or
removed. The other came into the world in 1880 and was known as the
Revised Version. However, it has absolutely no relation to the first. It
is the devil's counterfeit and the most popular bible today going under
numerous names NIV, NKJ, etc.
Anyway my friend please take a moment to read this book:
Book: War on the Saints
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_63/2262000/2262863/1/print/2262863.pdf
This is no more a book for the general reader than is either a medical
work on cancer, or a text book on mental disorders. It should never be
read for curiosity nor from mere academic interest. "To the natural man;
who has but a mental grasp of spiritual things, the language used may be
meaningless, but Christians of all stages of growth in the spiritual
life, who simply take what they can understand and leave the remainder
for those who are in deeper need-and until they themselves are in deeper
need-will obtain much light on matters within their horizon."
Well I'm not even sure this email will make it to you since the fact
your email address was displayed means you probably get a lot of
spam......
Take care,
John
Kaohsiung
Lutheran
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I really love your website, but have a couple points to make regarding your "Creationism" section.
Quote by you: "I will say that I do not argue against the evidence of intelligent design in the universe. I am one of those with the middle position that Evolution did happen, but that a cosmic life force had something to do with it. After all, no Atheist or scientific materialist has ever been able to answer the question of how something could come from nothing, or why anything even exists at all."
Please the following response to this.
We humans intelligently design and create, therefore we assume that we also must have been designed and created by an intelligent designer. However, symptoms such as diseases, viruses, bacteria, aging, physical ailments, mental disorders, and common birth defects don?t point to any type of intelligent design. Natural catastrophes that occur on a regular basis that destroy life indiscriminately do not point to any type of intelligent design. You can look into the cosmos and find unintelligent design aspects to it such as black holes, supernovas, white dwarfs, red giants, meteors, etc. The intelligent design argument is really feeble as it assumes a flawless creation.< SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Believing that there is this Intelligent Designer actually diminishes the amazement of the universe by suggesting that god just did it, rather than by way of a complicated, intricate process that science is continually learning and explaining. Believing that this "cosmic force" just did it doesn?t explain any of the complexity we see before us; it only transfers the burden of one unknown to an even larger unknown.
Attributing an "intelligent designer" or "cosmic force" as the source every time something can?t be explained from a natural perspective is illogical. That?s the same mentality that was used several thousand years ago to justify the existence of multiple gods when our understanding of the universe and nature were limited. The flaw in this logic is that you must then ask yourself who created this intelligent designer then, and so on, infinitely regressing. If you can conveniently just assume that this intelligent designer has always existed and doesn?t need a creator, then you can just as easily assume that the formation of the universe didn?t need a creator either. Science may or may not ever be able to unravel all the mysteries in the universe or adequately explain the singular event in time that caused this chain reaction to occur, but we should not compromise our intelligence and default to an intelligent designer as being responsible. You are still required to prove this intelligent designer's existence, not just insert him into the gaps of what cannot be understood at this moment in time, and call that proof.
In addition, the following 2-concepts often get confused with each other. Abiogenesis is the study of the origin of first life, and Evolution describes the gradual changes in species from simple beginnings over time. Science never states that life just came from nothing, but rather that the formation of the first life originated from non-living matter. And Natural Selection, which is the driving mechanism behind Evolution, is the exact opposite of chance. Chance only plays a role in the form of gene mutations, but from there, the possessors of those gene mutations that are suited to the environment will have greater reproductive success, and the possessors of those inferior gene variations that are not favorable to the environment will gradually be eliminated until eventual extinction. So we are not here by chance; we have successfully evolved to this point through Natural Selection, which is a cumulative process of slow gradual degrees from simple beginnings.
Thanks for your time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Winston, I read your story and wanted to make this comment. It's unfortunate what you went through and there are many who still fall under the same "Christian" misconceptions you were subjected to. Many things you are correct about in your considerations regarding the faith and beliefs you were instructed in and you are also right in that no loving God would condemn a soul to hell for never having been aware of Christ or His teachings. You are also right in that most Christian denominations follow the same basic (very basic) principles but not because of the theory you concluded. Its actually much simpler than that. If you research the history and founding of the various independent denominations they all came from one source and it was the individual founders who put their own twists on their own "faiths". That's why they are so similar in basics. Its called the "sifted like wheat" effect if you understand. God is a loving God and the best way to know Him is to go to the original source. He is much as you hoped He was and not as you thought . If you ever decide to know Him as He is, you can contact me at www.seekingdivinemercy.org and I will be glad to assist you. By the way, your family would not necessarily go to hell for not knowing or being of Christian faith either. Again, I have been Roman Catholic, left it, and researched Christianity all only to learn it was I that was wrong. Don't feel sorry for my beliefs, know I am sympathetic to what you experienced and will pray for you.
SDM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Winston,
I recently came across your site about "debunking" Fundamentalist
Christianity. Well, I don't really want to waste my time going over things that
are ambiguous to you, so I'll go over just one thing and hope you are willing
to update the site and reflect that this portion needs to be corrected. Yes, I
know it's one small thing, and I know it's probably something you don't
particularly care about, but rather than go over everything and all your
exhaustive arguments, I decided to focus only on one that is minute that most
people would probably see as irrelevant. I can attest to people having
deconversions to Christianity, I was close to it myself, but I didn't go the
same route as you did, and I didn't find your story anything to applaud about,
especially when most of the issues you brought up stem from trying to be
"politically correct," and tended to be emotionally charged rather
than logical.
I just want to correct one of your arguments that would take less than five
minutes to explain, and probably wouldn't even impact or debunk anything else
you put up. Please be honorable when considering what I or in my case, what God
has assigned me to write down.
In Argument # 5 about Rabbits do not chew the Cud.
I feel you misunderstood the meaning of that passage, based on the translation
in Hebrew.
Here is the problem. The modern English word for "cud" is as follows:
1.the portion of food that a ruminant returns from the first stomach to the
mouth to chew a second time.
This is the KJV's translation of the word gerah'alah
Gerah is the word that is
commonly understood in English as "cud."
Since a Rabbit is not a ruminant, the argument is that it cannot possibly chew
the cud, as it does not regurgitate it's food and then eat it again only to mix
it with more saliva. That is the argument you are presenting to your readers,
and it is also the argument you use to say "How could the Bible be
inerrant and not know this."
Here's the issue, the word for "cud" in modern English is restrictive
versus the Hebrew word for cud. That same word in Hebrew simply means "to
raise up what has been swallowed." It does not have the same restrictions
as the English word for "cud," in that it does not imply constant
"rumination" but rather also "refection." Refection is when
the rabbit pass what they eat first through their body and then eat it again.
Now you're probably thinking... okay, so the Hebrew word means "to raise
up." So what? Passing through the rabbit and to go out the other end,
that's not the same thing.
Our other key word here is 'alah, and it is found in some grammatical form on literally every page of the OT. This is because it is a word that encompasses many concepts other than "bring up." It also can mean ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch up, get up, recover, restore, take up, and much more. It is a catch-all verb form describing the moving of something to another place. (The literal rendering here is, "maketh the gerah to 'alah.")
Now in the verses in question, 'alah is used as a participle. Let's look at the other verses where it is used this way (NIV only implies some of these phrases; where in parentheses, the phrase is in the original, sometimes in the KJV):
Josh. 24:17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our
fathers up out of
1 Sam.
Nahum 3:3 Charging cavalry, flashing swords (lifted), and
glittering spears!
Isaiah 8:7 ...therefore the Lord is about to bring against them
the mighty floodwaters of the River...
2 Chron. 24:14 When they had finished, they brought the rest of
the money...
Ps. 135:7 He makes clouds rise (up) from the ends of the earth...
2 Sam.
So: the Hebrew word is question is NOT specific to the process of regurgitation; it is a phrase of general movement. And related to the specific issue at hand, the rabbit is an animal that does "maketh" the previously digested material to "come" out of the body (though in a different way than a ruminant does) and does thereafter does chew "predigested material"! The mistake is in our applying of the scientific terms of rumination to something that does not require it.
If you want the source where this information is presented (where I found this information) here is ONE website, which I copied and pasted the last part from. I found references in many other places, but this one suffices for the argument.
http://www.tektonics.org/af/cudchewers.html
I know you're probably thinking.... "tektonics, bah it's a 'biased'
source."
But read it anyway, it corrects one argument, and well... it would make your
debunking more accurate to not include that portion of it.
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I have read some of your statements of position regarding Christianity and I quickly found with all due respect, you are either not familiar with Christian doctrine or was very poorly instructed in it as the points as you have written them that you claimed to "debunk" are incorrect, at least as far as what the doctrines and principles of my faith follow.
When it comes to faith, humanity is frail. In our earthly way, we are beings of a physical nature and relate to that which is of a physical nature. To relate to something that is without physical substance or is of a super-natural existence is difficult to comprehend in our finite minds. We require proof or evidence. Absent of either of those, all we have left is faith.
In relationships, whether faith in our friend, our husband, wife, doctor, preacher, priest, or our Lord, without faith, there cannot be a true, confident relationship. Yet no test of faith can exist where all the answers are known. There, knowledge and discernment replace true faith. In any relationship, regardless of whether it is with another person or our Lord, faith must exist in whomever the object of our love may be in order for the relationship to survive because unlike our Heavenly Father, we cannot know what is to come in the future to know where a relationship will lead us. So it is that our faith is weak and frail yet even more so with our Lord who we cannot easily relate to due to our physical nature and His super-natural being. We fall easily, giving up on what we cannot encounter with our limited senses.
Some think it would be so much easier to have faith in our Lord if we could see Him even once. But the reality is, to see Him just once could never be enough. Our desire to see Him and be with Him would then become incomprehensible. Anyone who has ever experienced love knows the strongest desire is to be with the person you love and separation tormenting. So why can?t we be with Him now you may question? To skip this physical lifetime, which would be necessary in order to be with our Lord, would cancel out all that we would experience, most importantly, all that influences us in the exercise of our God given gift of free will. To be able to choose freely to know Him and love Him as He desires or proceed on our own path just as we choose to enter or avoid any other relationship. Faith to trust, love and devote oneself in that ultimate relationship with Our Lord. The closer we come to knowing Him the stronger our faith, trust, Love and devotion can grow.
SDM
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Hello, my name is Donny, i love your website and am trying to build
refutation to the bible being supported by science.
i have found this interesting geocities cite that claims this is true and would
like your take on many of the aspects concerning this.
http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/science.html
thx
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Dear Winston,
I have just read your life story and I too have gone through the same thing,albeit not as severe. I have had a burning desire to serve Christianity to the point where I have considered ordination. I then picked up a book by Neale Donald Walsch and it made me think about my faith to the point where it does not add up anymore. Your views sum it all up. God is interpreted by all the different religons differently but they are all just different perspectives on the same God.
An excellent article which I hope more people will read.
Yours Sincerely,
Nigel Townend
P.S
The title of the book is Conversations with God.
Subject: Real Buddha and Real Christ