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Philosophical problems with damnation I had as a Christian

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Philosophical problems with damnation I had as a Christian

Postby Scepcop » 13 Nov 2009, 06:46

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Philosophical problems with damnation I had as a Christian

Postby Nostradamus » 16 Nov 2009, 12:45

I would certainly agree that religion is not a logical process. It requires a series of beliefs that do not follow logically. Instead, you have to take the claims on faith and not reason. And trying to act logically around religion often leads to claims such as blasphemy.

Some thoughts on the issues posted here.

#1 This really resonates with me in an unusual way. I used to think it was odd that the all powerful and evil devil revealed himself by shaking furniture. If I was an evil genius I certainly would make chairs rattle.

I would point out that part 1 suggests a "one religion fits all" is better, but follows up with #2 which is a variety is the spice of life claim.

#2 This is rather bad logic. Not well thought out. It's so clumsy I can't comment on it.

#3 Oh boy. Guessing a bit here, but I thought that if you did not reject Christianity you were not immediately sent to taste fire and brimstone. I thought only those that were offered and rejected salvation were in eternal trouble.

#4 The math starts to make sense and then goes bad, way bad.

If you are in a Christian area, then the person sees a 100% chance of salvation. In a non-Christian area the person sees a 100% of fire and brimstone.

#5 I think this issue may be covered.

#6 That's the essence of religion - making sense of the world.

#7 The existence of suffering is one of the main points people use in refuting religious beliefs.

#8 No comment.
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Re: Philosophical problems with damnation I had as a Christi

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 30 Jul 2010, 16:19

When my ex-wife converted me to belief in Her (that's what it amounted too) variety of Xianity, she persuaded me that the classic answer to the presence of all-good in Plato's 3 O's was that the correct definition of “good” is simply “What 'God” wants” He wants Saul to slaughter the Moabites. All good. Genocide is good when god wants it, pork isn't when he doesn't, etc.

That solved a lot of the problem of “evil” God wants it, so its all ultimately good
Why did the one I shall now refer to as der Teufal im Himmel, to keep my delusion distinct from others, why did he want evil?
As a multiple personality, der Teufal im Himmel is as vain as Cecil B DeMille, and as Jesus meek and mild he is as vain Madame Bathory would have been if she'd been an operatic diva instead of merely a princess. To them, Jesus's was “The Greatest Story Ever Told” As a actor, it all made perfect sense to me.

What does this have to do with damnation? Heaven is for those who liked the show. As for the rest, well, for example, if it wasn't for the Chinese, Jews would not be able to get kosher food anywhere on earth today. That was obviously worth creating billions of Chinese.

By the way, hell is not for infants or pagans. They go to sleep in the sun, snuffing out. Nirvana of dreamlessness. Hell is for Moslems, Jews, and Christians who have heard the story and didn't like. As an actor, I can again understand the playwright sending all the critics to hell.

One last note. Der Teufal did not tell JC that Saul of Tarsus was going to sell tickets to gentiles. Although he is going to the party, Saul will be punished for all the people he sent to hell.

This is what my ex allowed me to believe after years of battering at my soft-shell teaching that all will be saved.

Do I still believe in any of it? Enough that I take my meds. JC scares me more than Hitler. Imagine if Mel Gibson could send everyone who saw the passion and didn't like it to hell!
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Re: Philosophical problems with damnation I had as a Christi

Postby Craig Browning » 30 Jul 2010, 23:47

As I've pointed out elsewhere, what we know today as "christianity" IS NOT what JC & Co. taught but rather (as has been noted) what Saul edited and adapted to suit his own goal of becoming the leader of a new cult... Saul of Tarsus wasn't just the founder of Rome Friendly (Gentile available) Christianity he was the first "Christian" vs. follower of Jesus or "the way" as it was known.

It wouldn't be too difficult for the average human being of today's world to recognize the fact that Saul was first and foremost, a bigot and woman hater. For the most part he viewed all females with contempt, equating them and small children to live stock; a possession of the male to do with as he pleased. But aside form that Saul adapted the Zoroastrian ideas of salvation vs. eternal damnation (hell) and then imposed a somewhat rigid outline as to what was supposed to be.

While much of the original oratory given to us by JC and the lads has been lost we do know that much of it tied directly to the Gnostic paths vs. dogmatism (a.k.a. Orthodoxy) and most importantly, it still held to ancient "shamanic" ideologies as well as inference; "Hell" being a physical place as well as mental. The idea of descending into hell being reference to the shamanic rites in which one would isolate himself in a cave... frequently a cave with a hot spring. There are two reasons for the hot spring; firstly, as we all know, a long soak can prove revitalizing. But there is a secondary influence in this case... the fumes of certain hot springs can be hallucinogenic, couple that with fasting and voila! Spirit Quest hits the fan and God answers your question as to how to resolve the things that are mentally afflicting you and placing you "in hell"... in this process you are able to identify the "sin' and become "free"

In latter eras this same rite would become the general idea to support the Catholic Purgatory idea. My point here however, is trace the mythos back to the physical root of the issue and in the case of Heaven or Hell, this antiquated tradition is more than likely where the physical ideas and descriptions of Hell come from, you can even see it in the Greek myths.



While the Abarahamic Faiths (the big 3) are the most aggressive and hate-driven cults in human history, they certainly aren't the only religious element to manipulate the tenets of their founder's teachings as an excuse for bigotry. Humankind just has a knack at finding "outs" -- that is to say, we become lawyers who dissect the "documents" in order to find the loop-holes or permissions. If they aren't arguably apparent, they are invented or implied. Just look at how "King James" bastardized the older known translations of the bible, giving the world on of the least accurate translations of said tradition, that is the most quoted and embraced BECAUSE IT SUSTAINS THE LIES & BIAS OF THE "FAITH-FILLED"... so much so that they negate the fact that "King" James was actually a Queen :roll: (amongst other things).

Any and all "belief systems" can be used in this way, just look at how the poor Constitution has been manipulated over the past 50 years or so and how, in particular, the ACLU uses it as a batten, exploiting it in ways our founding fathers would never have condoned... which is why the document was deliberately penned in very simple language vs. lawyerese... evidently the views weren't as self-apparent as they thought... :?

Getting Back to the Bible & Christians... the book tells us the truth if we simply look at it and listen to the various parables vs. what the preachers and red necks want us to "hear". If for instance, we were to understand the story of the Good Samaritan () it would seem that "god" acknowledges all good works regardless of who performs them and thus, no one group or race is superior or more "right" than another. It's just man being man...
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