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Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby highflyertoo » 16 Aug 2009, 08:30

Would Randi in ''good faith'' be prepared to under go a Lie Detector Test to prove that his Million Dollar Paranormal Challange is legitimate in it's proposal to payout the monies without there being a hidden agenda?.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby General Zod » 16 Aug 2009, 08:44

I doubt it. Why should he?
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby highflyertoo » 16 Aug 2009, 09:06

General Zod wrote:I doubt it. Why should he?


It would be a Scientific way to show the public he's telling the truth.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby General Zod » 16 Aug 2009, 15:08

First of all, a lie detector test wouldn't be very scientific. I wouldn't take a failure as evidence that he's lying, or success as evidence he's telling the truth.

But let's say we could accept the results at face value- what questions would you ask him?
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby brett » 16 Aug 2009, 15:39

General Zod wrote:First of all, a lie detector test wouldn't be very scientific. I wouldn't take a failure as evidence that he's lying, or success as evidence he's telling the truth.

But let's say we could accept the results at face value- what questions would you ask him?


um a question general - where you are , is /are lie detector results admissible as evidence in a court of law ?? - just interested ;)
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby The Warrigal » 16 Aug 2009, 15:55

I would just like to chime in here and say lie detector evidence is not only unscientific but it is well known that people can be taught to "beat the machine."

So I must agree with General Zod that if Randi took such a test, it would prove absolutely nothing.

And to be absolutely fair, if Randi were ever to take a lie detector test to "prove" that his MDC is legit, then Victor Zammit should do likewise.

I am unimpressed with million dollar challenges regardless of which side throws down the gauntlet.

I further think that these challenges do more harm than good since even when genuine, they are apt to be perceived by onlookers as publicity stunts calculated to raise the profile of the challenger while at the same time stacking the deck so heavily in that challengers favour that they would be harder to win than a lottery.

I do not say that either Randi or Zammit's challenges are false, but I do think that they a send "the wrong message" and have the effect of making the challenger look like a carny rather than a sober investigator.

For some reason, many people can become obsessed with the legitimacy of these challenges and the challenge becomes yet another sideshow battle field between sceptics and believers.

As if the field of paranormal research needed another of those!
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby brett » 16 Aug 2009, 16:20

The Warrigal wrote:I would just like to chime in here and say lie detector evidence is not only unscientific but it is well known that people can be taught to "beat the machine."

So I must agree with General Zod that if Randi took such a test, it would prove absolutely nothing.

And to be absolutely fair, if Randi were ever to take a lie detector test to "prove" that his MDC is legit, then Victor Zammit should do likewise.

I am unimpressed with million dollar challenges regardless of which side throws down the gauntlet.

I further think that these challenges do more harm than good since even when genuine, they are apt to be perceived by onlookers as publicity stunts calculated to raise the profile of the challenger while at the same time stacking the deck so heavily in that challengers favour that they would be harder to win than a lottery.

I do not say that either Randi or Zammit's challenges are false, but I do think that they a send "the wrong message" and have the effect of making the challenger look like a carny rather than a sober investigator.

For some reason, many people can become obsessed with the legitimacy of these challenges and the challenge becomes yet another sideshow battle field between sceptics and believers.

As if the field of paranormal research needed another of those!



yep your last line says it all - good post :D
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby JonDonnis » 16 Aug 2009, 18:13

To answer the question.
Yes Randi would take a lie detector test and yes he would pass it very easily.

And this is the problem with believers, they do not examine what they say they just say it.

Lie Detectors are easy to beat, anyone can do so, you just tense your sphincter muscles (your bum hole)

Us Skeptics investigate everything, we dont take things at face value.

You talk about the JREF Million Dollar challenge being unpassable, and so on.
Yet if there was anything dodgy it would be the SKEPTICS who would expose it, and Randi knows this, and that is why the challenge is 100% fair.

When Randi has made mistakes (And he has done) it is always the skeptics who point it out, and Randi always humbly apologises.

Maybe people on here and the creators of this site should try and learn about skepticism before attacking it out of ignorance.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby highflyertoo » 16 Aug 2009, 18:25

General Zod wrote:First of all, a lie detector test wouldn't be very scientific. I wouldn't take a failure as evidence that he's lying, or success as evidence he's telling the truth.

But let's say we could accept the results at face value- what questions would you ask him?


It would be in Randi's best interest to pass the LDT to maintain his public relations with the likes of Michael Shermer and JREF members.

The question I first would like put forth to Randi is, '' Is the Million Dollar Challenge a publicity stunt to promote your view on Atheism ? ''.
Next question would be , ''Is the Million Dollar Challenge also an advertising stunt to attract members to the JREF Site to boost the awareness of your books to increase the sales of your books?''.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby highflyertoo » 16 Aug 2009, 18:39

JonDonnis wrote:To answer the question.
Yes Randi would take a lie detector test and yes he would pass it very easily.

And this is the problem with believers, they do not examine what they say they just say it.

Lie Detectors are easy to beat, anyone can do so, you just tense your sphincter muscles (your bum hole)

Us Skeptics investigate everything, we dont take things at face value.

You talk about the JREF Million Dollar challenge being unpassable, and so on.
Yet if there was anything dodgy it would be the SKEPTICS who would expose it, and Randi knows this, and that is why the challenge is 100% fair.

When Randi has made mistakes (And he has done) it is always the skeptics who point it out, and Randi always humbly apologises.

Maybe people on here and the creators of this site should try and learn about skepticism before attacking it out of ignorance.


Are you this Jon Donnis ? http://www.ghostconnections.com/Jon%20Donnis.htm

Seeing you are a speaker for Randi now ?? Could you arrange for Randi to take the Lie Detector Test soon, as Randi is not getting any younger.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby General Zod » 17 Aug 2009, 00:43

highflyertoo wrote:It would be in Randi's best interest to pass the LDT to maintain his public relations with the likes of Michael Shermer and JREF members.

The question I first would like put forth to Randi is, '' Is the Million Dollar Challenge a publicity stunt to promote your view on Atheism ? ''.
Next question would be , ''Is the Million Dollar Challenge also an advertising stunt to attract members to the JREF Site to boost the awareness of your books to increase the sales of your books?''.


Again, I doubt very much that taking a lie detector test would be in Randi's best interest. He really doesn't stand to gain anything with his supporters.

The MDC is a publicity stunt. By that I don't mean that it's wrong or inherently flawed, just that it's designed to generate publicity. Alleged psychics such as Sylvia Browne and John Edward use media stunts to generate publicity for themselves, so why shouldn't Randi?
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby brett » 17 Aug 2009, 01:31

jon donnis opined :" Us Skeptics investigate everything, we don't take things at face value." er neither do those of us believers who have brains and use them !! and as for investigating "everything " well that's a laugh - tell me then WHY skeptics never do longitudinal studies of places claiming to be haunted and charging admission to the gullible ?? - and if found to be so expose them as the frauds they are ( they would be doing us all a service ) - why we don't have skeptics ready to come to investigations when requested to provide balance ?? - why on the whole you never question ( or at least publicly question ) the big name skeptics Randi et al ,( oh sorry , i forgot they are infallible ) - why when i challenge to even do 30 minutes of practical research on a subject on this site - they don't feel the need to and find excuses , why none of you ever ask the BIG question of "could we be wrong ??

i have made some sweeping generalisations here - to demonstrate how easy it is to do so - just like your statement !! - some of us on the "believers" side ALSO question everything and accept nothing at face value - that's what makes us researchers - OK i AGREE there are many that don't and are guilty of taking things at face value - but they are "play at it " ghost hunters in the main - SO PLEASE DONT make sweeping generalisations - and tar us ALL with the same brush !! :x

actually i just thought when you say "Us skeptics " you do mean ALL skeptics and not just those in the US ?? - as if you do you must be different from our home grown brand :lol: :lol:
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby ciscop » 17 Aug 2009, 08:05

skepticism basis is science and facts
believer´s side is just based on faith and anecdotal evidence
the main problem is that believers jump to supernatural explanations a lot of the time while skeptics wont until faced with real hard evidence.
also i think is funny that you brett acuse skeptics of not questioning if we are wrong, when you do it too, when you were provided with a psychological fact about what could have happened you also stayed with your own story.
i wonder if you have really checked about the ghost story, im pretty sure you accepted the story that guy told you as real without questioning, without looking for evidence THAT DID HAPPEN, your simple psychological case becomes a supernatural experience only after you heard about this story but you didnt checked for real if that did happen right?.. you accept so easily a guy telling you a rumour... amazing.

by the way..
have you heard of joe nickell?, he is a skeptic investigator with many books
he has stayed in a lot of haunted places all over the world
and he has not reported anything paranormal or supernatural at all
if you are a ghost believer, pretty sure you will see some kind of shadow and you will believe it was ghost and thats it, if you are a skeptic.. you will se a shadow and nothing more. go and watch those ghost hunters and paranormal state.. quite funny how suggestion works.. people just running around with cameras like some kind of blairwitch project getting scared of shadows ¨and feelings of being cold¨...

also i think this very thread is asking the wrong question
lie detectors are not reliable,
this is like asking... will randi accepted to be cursed by a voodoo wizard??.. OF COURSE! nothing will happen
you are using woo to ask a stupid question
learn your facts highflyer
and by the way, jref is not an atheist association
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby highflyertoo » 17 Aug 2009, 10:13

These people in this particular Country who perform Polygraph Tests are ''vigorously trained and approved'' by the USA standard of Scientific Instrumental (that's Scientific) Lie Detection Methods. http://www.privateinvestigator.com.au/a ... rvices.htm

Because Randi has trust in Science, then he should have ''no prob'' in under going a controlled Lie Dection Test in the Lab.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Would Randi take a Lie Detector Test?

Postby ciscop » 17 Aug 2009, 12:48

yep
and homeopaths swear they are doctors and what they do is science..

is just water
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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