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Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 19 Oct 2009, 13:32

Mistislav D'ralle wrote:
Mistislav wrote: The clause is simply like a "television release" document. It grants the right for JREF to show the experiment in any format but does not grant them the right to modify, falsify, manipulate or change the experiment as there is no "moral rights" waiver allowing this in the JREF offer document. I assume the intent is to allow JREF to reproduce all the failed experiments in their compilation books so they can prove they use the scientific method ( and make money from book sales). If this clause was not included then people applying to the JREF MDC would be able to prevent JREF disclosing the details of the experiments and allow them to complain that JREF is not being honest through being "secretive".

In the unlikely scenario that an applicant will prove they have paranormal powers JREF will want the rights to publish this significant experiment in the world's press. This is logical as JREF is conducting the experiment.


Don wrote:RESPONSE: On the contrary. The wording clearly allows them to use it any way JREF likes. You may THINK that's what they've written, but legally, you can only go by the actual words, and the words show that if someone agrees to the rules there is nothing they can do about misrepresentation by JREF.


Not true. In recent USA and international copyright law legislation has introduced moral rights where as a person assigning a copyright or a artistic, musical, celebrity or technical performance has the certainty that the new owner may only use the product for the intent detailed at the time of assignment. For example, if you recorded a nice song about you girlfriend and sold the copyright to EMI, EMI could not assign their new property to a dogfood commercial even though they own the song. However most copyright assignment contracts from the mid 80's now have "moral rights waivers" to allow complete control. JREF has no moral right waiver nor do they need to because your rights are protected by consumer laws that outweigh the express terms of a contract.


and more important than that
self delluded people should first prove their own paranormal powers
before starting to claim that the challenge is fixed

but nah... they are way to lazy to go to a news station to become world famous while claiming a million dollars for themselves or the charity of their choice...
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 20 Oct 2009, 06:25

ciscop wrote: and more important than that self delluded people should first prove their own paranormal powers
before starting to claim that the challenge is fixed but nah... they are way to lazy to go to a news station to become world famous while claiming a million dollars for themselves or the charity of their choice...


I agree and I was wondering why "paranormal wannabe applicants" are attacking the scientific bodies offering "challenges" in this century but not last century. I have been reading the original scientific papers concerning testing "sceances" "distant-vision" etc from the mid 1800s. (Most are in France & England) In those tests the scientists paid the "professional spiritualists" to do a show and then tried to work out the magic tricks being used fter the event. Nowdays the scientific bodies are not offering a fee upfront but only a carrot on a stick if they can prove the power. I think that in the "old days" may "spiritualists" used half-arsed scientific investigations as a sales technique to get into local press. In a funny way Highflyertoo and the Professor's abuse of JREF is a 150 year old standard activity.

(Harry Houdini private letters explain why the spritualist movement grew so quickly in Chicago in the late 19th century. Single women could advertise in newspapers to meet men in their private rooms for one hour "seances" but were really just prostitutes. The upper class didn't undrstand this and got all "spritual" thinking it was a growing movement)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 20 Oct 2009, 06:36

Amazing info!
i have to get those letters
hahaha thats so funny

i know a guy that describes himself as a spiritual human being while he goes whoring around the globe
i didnt know those 2 things were closer than i thought.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ProfWag » 20 Oct 2009, 08:38

Mistislav D'ralle wrote:
ciscop wrote: and more important than that self delluded people should first prove their own paranormal powers
before starting to claim that the challenge is fixed but nah... they are way to lazy to go to a news station to become world famous while claiming a million dollars for themselves or the charity of their choice...


I agree and I was wondering why "paranormal wannabe applicants" are attacking the scientific bodies offering "challenges" in this century but not last century. I have been reading the original scientific papers concerning testing "sceances" "distant-vision" etc from the mid 1800s. (Most are in France & England) In those tests the scientists paid the "professional spiritualists" to do a show and then tried to work out the magic tricks being used fter the event. Nowdays the scientific bodies are not offering a fee upfront but only a carrot on a stick if they can prove the power. I think that in the "old days" may "spiritualists" used half-arsed scientific investigations as a sales technique to get into local press. In a funny way Highflyertoo and the Professor's abuse of JREF is a 150 year old standard activity.

(Harry Houdini private letters explain why the spritualist movement grew so quickly in Chicago in the late 19th century. Single women could advertise in newspapers to meet men in their private rooms for one hour "seances" but were really just prostitutes. The upper class didn't undrstand this and got all "spritual" thinking it was a growing movement)

I agree. Good and interesting info there. I may look into that more!
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 20 Oct 2009, 10:13

ProfWag wrote: I agree. Good and interesting info there. I may look into that more!


I suggest "A History of the Paranormal" by Brian Ingliss (ISBN 1 85327 074 1) as the book is neither pro or anti "Woo" but details the experiments and mediums up until 1914. It is fun because you realise that JREF, this forum and all the pro-paranormal socities have been around for 300 years. If the aim of this forum is to explore poor skeptic behaviour then this book is a "gold mine" of bad experiments and bad skeptic behaviour from the past.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Don » 01 Nov 2009, 10:52

Mistislav D'ralle wrote:
Mistislav wrote: The clause is simply like a "television release" document. It grants the right for JREF to show the experiment in any format but does not grant them the right to modify, falsify, manipulate or change the experiment as there is no "moral rights" waiver allowing this in the JREF offer document. I assume the intent is to allow JREF to reproduce all the failed experiments in their compilation books so they can prove they use the scientific method ( and make money from book sales). If this clause was not included then people applying to the JREF MDC would be able to prevent JREF disclosing the details of the experiments and allow them to complain that JREF is not being honest through being "secretive".

In the unlikely scenario that an applicant will prove they have paranormal powers JREF will want the rights to publish this significant experiment in the world's press. This is logical as JREF is conducting the experiment.


Don wrote:RESPONSE: On the contrary. The wording clearly allows them to use it any way JREF likes. You may THINK that's what they've written, but legally, you can only go by the actual words, and the words show that if someone agrees to the rules there is nothing they can do about misrepresentation by JREF.


Not true. In recent USA and international copyright law legislation has introduced moral rights where as a person assigning a copyright or a artistic, musical, celebrity or technical performance has the certainty that the new owner may only use the product for the intent detailed at the time of assignment. For example, if you recorded a nice song about you girlfriend and sold the copyright to EMI, EMI could not assign their new property to a dogfood commercial even though they own the song. However most copyright assignment contracts from the mid 80's now have "moral rights waivers" to allow complete control. JREF has no moral right waiver nor do they need to because your rights are protected by consumer laws that outweigh the express terms of a contract.



Unfortunately, that particular law is not applicable in this instance.

Using YOUR example, if a psychic were tested, made his own video and let Randi et. al. use it, you would be correct. However, that is not what is happening here. It is Randi and his group who are making the recordings, not the supposed psychic. Randi and the JREF are the owners and can do with it what they want, including lying about what's on it (along the lines of Penn and Teller on their TV show). The clause in question prevents the person being recorded from objecting to whatever Randi wants to do with it.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ProfWag » 01 Nov 2009, 20:16

I've been trying to stay neutral in this debate, but it appears that Randi is offering people an opportunity to prove the paranormal exists, yet people do nothing but criticize it. If paranormal powers exist, then his rules or the rules of any of the other 2 dozen agencies offering rewards for the same proof would easily be overome. It is just my observation that there are a lot of excuses and little action.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby WhiteTiger » 01 Nov 2009, 20:29

On both sides Prof, on both sides. Randi's side is as guilty of excessive noise and limited action as the woo woo side.

*waits for the "yeah? prove it" *



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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 01 Nov 2009, 20:31

ProfWag wrote:I've been trying to stay neutral in this debate, but it appears that Randi is offering people an opportunity to prove the paranormal exists, yet people do nothing but criticize it. If paranormal powers exist, then his rules or the rules of any of the other 2 dozen agencies offering rewards for the same proof would easily be overome. It is just my observation that there are a lot of excuses and little action.

Bottom line.... a one million dollar carrot will bring out some asses.

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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby highflyertoo » 02 Nov 2009, 21:27

And what makes people think that Randi would release the video tapes of a paranormal act. Randi believes there's no paranormal, if Randi really does see the the paranormal he may renege on disclosing the info for fear of his past words on the subject in question. Skeletons in the closet would surely come out.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ProfWag » 03 Nov 2009, 00:02

highflyertoo wrote:And what makes people think that Randi would release the video tapes of a paranormal act. Randi believes there's no paranormal, if Randi really does see the the paranormal he may renege on disclosing the info for fear of his past words on the subject in question. Skeletons in the closet would surely come out.

As I've stated time and again (without getting through to anyone), if you don't like Randi's rules, follow the rules of one of the other paranormal challenge offers. Why do you have to use Randi's? Oh, you don't. It is apparent to me that you like to complain about him because you know you don't have real powers, but want to steal his money and he makes it so difficult for you. Is that it?
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 03 Nov 2009, 07:16

ProfWag wrote:
highflyertoo wrote:And what makes people think that Randi would release the video tapes of a paranormal act. Randi believes there's no paranormal, if Randi really does see the the paranormal he may renege on disclosing the info for fear of his past words on the subject in question. Skeletons in the closet would surely come out.

As I've stated time and again (without getting through to anyone), if you don't like Randi's rules, follow the rules of one of the other paranormal challenge offers. Why do you have to use Randi's? Oh, you don't. It is apparent to me that you like to complain about him because you know you don't have real powers, but want to steal his money and he makes it so difficult for you. Is that it?


I can't find Highflyertoo's post on the Skeptic Society forum, however what Highflyer does is make an application and then refuses to sign the agreement because "christians are not allowed to sign contracts". This allows him to say "they refused my application". He will then move onto the next web forum and start the whole process again. His problem is that he is running out of forums.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby highflyertoo » 03 Nov 2009, 07:51

Mistislav D'ralle wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
highflyertoo wrote:And what makes people think that Randi would release the video tapes of a paranormal act. Randi believes there's no paranormal, if Randi really does see the the paranormal he may renege on disclosing the info for fear of his past words on the subject in question. Skeletons in the closet would surely come out.

As I've stated time and again (without getting through to anyone), if you don't like Randi's rules, follow the rules of one of the other paranormal challenge offers. Why do you have to use Randi's? Oh, you don't. It is apparent to me that you like to complain about him because you know you don't have real powers, but want to steal his money and he makes it so difficult for you. Is that it?


I can't find Highflyertoo's post on the Skeptic Society forum, however what Highflyer does is make an application and then refuses to sign the agreement because "christians are not allowed to sign contracts". This allows him to say "they refused my application". He will then move onto the next web forum and start the whole process again. His problem is that he is running out of forums.


Likely Story Indeed. LOL

Crime Scene will win the Melbourne Cup today
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ProfWag » 03 Nov 2009, 21:19

highflyertoo wrote:
Crime Scene will win the Melbourne Cup today


So much for your psychic abilities highflyertoo...

(CNN) -- Shocking scored an upset victory on Tuesday at the Melbourne Cup, securing victory with a late surge at one of the world's great horse racing spectacles.

The four-year-old rallied in the final furlong to edge past Crime Scene at the Flemington race track in Melbourne, Australia.

Mourilyan also made a late run to claim third place.

Pre-race favorites Alcopop and defending champion Viewed, who was racing under top weight, finished sixth and seventh, respectively.

Godolphin-owned Crime Scene, ridden by Kerrin McEvoy, took up the running three furlongs out but Corey Brown gave the winner a perfect ride to score victory by three quarters of a length.

Brown had been on the runner up Bauer in 2008 and was delighted to go one better.

"Last year was very disappointing, and now I've finally won the Melbourne Cup," he told reporters.

"It's a dream come true, I can't describe the feeling," he added.

Shocking, who was sent off at odds of 9-1, became the first horse since Brew in 2000 to follow up victory in last Saturday's Lexus Stakes with success in Australia's biggest horse race.

Crime Scene's narrow defeat kept up a jinx for a British-based runners at the Melbourne Cup and only three internationally trained horses have captured the crown -- Vintage Crop (1993), Media Puzzle (2002) and Delta Blues (2006).
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby highflyertoo » 03 Nov 2009, 21:35

ProfWag wrote:
highflyertoo wrote:
Crime Scene will win the Melbourne Cup today


So much for your psychic abilities highflyertoo...

(CNN) -- Shocking scored an upset victory on Tuesday at the Melbourne Cup, securing victory with a late surge at one of the world's great horse racing spectacles.

The four-year-old rallied in the final furlong to edge past Crime Scene at the Flemington race track in Melbourne, Australia.

Mourilyan also made a late run to claim third place.

Pre-race favorites Alcopop and defending champion Viewed, who was racing under top weight, finished sixth and seventh, respectively.

Godolphin-owned Crime Scene, ridden by Kerrin McEvoy, took up the running three furlongs out but Corey Brown gave the winner a perfect ride to score victory by three quarters of a length.

Brown had been on the runner up Bauer in 2008 and was delighted to go one better.

"Last year was very disappointing, and now I've finally won the Melbourne Cup," he told reporters.

"It's a dream come true, I can't describe the feeling," he added.

Shocking, who was sent off at odds of 9-1, became the first horse since Brew in 2000 to follow up victory in last Saturday's Lexus Stakes with success in Australia's biggest horse race.

Crime Scene's narrow defeat kept up a jinx for a British-based runners at the Melbourne Cup and only three internationally trained horses have captured the crown -- Vintage Crop (1993), Media Puzzle (2002) and Delta Blues (2006).


Yes , I made a shocking prediction. :lol:
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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