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Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby brett » 13 Aug 2009, 14:31

ciscop wrote:my gosh brett
i like your stories
but you are starting to sound like a really ignorant guy
what the hell

it would be awesome
if somebody takes randi´s million (i will love to live in a world where the paranormal exists)
but if all we have
is guys critizing the contest and giving excuses not to take it... well.. then
is just a circus
you are part of the freak show
well done brett!!

who cares about the blank jref
get somebody to take another one of the 30 paranormal challenges in the world
you dont have one person that will do it
just scam artists, assholes and self delluded persons like you brett


ah the mark of the true PsKeptic - if all else fails - start with the personal insults - have i ever personally insulted YOU ciscop ?? - we have different opinions - but i don't believe that i have as yet come out with ANY blatant PERSONAL INSULTS towards you - so PLEASE TREAT ME WITH THE same RESPECT as i treat all posters ( and their opinions ) - and don't insult me ;) - its all water off a ducks back anyway to me - i have been insulted by EXPERTS :lol: :lol:
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Hellboy » 14 Aug 2009, 01:03

csicop wrote:
but you are starting to sound like a really ignorant guy
what the hell


Could you please state succinctly why?

csicop wrote:
you are part of the freak show
well done brett!!


Is this Ad homien or a statement of fact?

csicop wrote:
just scam artists, assholes and self delluded persons like you brett


Wow more insults!!! ........... Why don’t you try and addressing the actual argument for a change! ;)

Trying to differentiate your points from the childish insults is particularly tiresome. You can still get your main points across without resorting to nonsense. Of course if you want to continue in the same vane please do so, however it does make your posts appear somewhat retarded!
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 14 Aug 2009, 02:03

brett wrote:so long as you have a bunch of dumb smucks willing to follow any type of showman

:roll: :roll:


I do like randi and jref, so i guess that makes me a dumb smuck
i took that as a personal attack so therefor you got my response
however i should state i have never given randi or send randi money
nor to the jref or have gone to dragoncon or the amazing meeting
nor i have bought his videos or books (i read his books in the library thought)
so take a guess again :D is not about the money (have you seen the jref library?.. it isnt that big, they are not swiming in money)

also i think is great the fascination that paranormalist have with randi
he is an 81 year old guy! he will go soon! and still you wont have a case to build up for your own
homeopathy will still be water and uri geller will still be a magician
build a case on your own instead of making attacks of just this guy
There´s plenty of more challenges in the world, no ¨real¨ guy is taking them... WHY ??
is just self delluded people and scam artists (or people just wanting to get some kind of publicity)
here is a list of all the challenges in the world.. WHY is nobody taking these challenges?


USA: New York Area skeptics' $2,000 JREF pledge
In the event that the James Randi Educational Foundation's $1,000,000 be won, the New York Area skeptics will add a further $2000 to the total.

Contact: Jeff Corey jcorey@liunet.edu


USA: Shadow Villanueva $2,000 JREF pledge/award
In the event that the James Randi Educational Foundation's $1,000,000 be won, Mr Villanueva will add a further $2000 to the total.
Alternatively, the amount may be awarded to anyone passing his paranormal challenge.
Open To:
Anyone who can provide evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power.
Link: http://www.magickalshadow.com/challenge.html


Canada: Les Sceptiques du Quebec CAN$10,000 award ($9,000 approx)
Open To:
Anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.

This challenge is run in conjunction with the James Randi Educational Foundation. The winning of this prize will also be considered a successful completion of the JREF preliminary test (see link).
Link : http://www.sceptiques.qc.ca/DS/dsmain.html (in French - click here for the Alta Vista Babel Fish Translation service)


UK: Association for Skeptical Enquiry £13,000 award ($23,000 approx).
Open to:
Those with psychic powers.
Link: http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/challenge_rules.htm


Australia: Australian Skeptics' AUD$100,000 award ($75,000 approx)
Open to:
Those with psychic/paranormal powers.

Upon successful completion of the test, the claimant will be awarded AUD$80,000 and the person who introduced the claimant AUD$20,000. If the successful claimant contacted the Australian Skeptics him/herself, AUD$100,000 will be awarded.
Link: http://www.skeptics.com.au/prizes/challenge.htm

On occasions, tests performed in an attempt to win this prize have been accepted (by representatives of the James Randi Educational Foundation) as also constituting the preliminary tests for the JREF million dollar challenge.
Source: http://www.randi.org/jr/011102.html


China: Sima Nan 10,000,000 yuan award ($1,200,000 approx)
Open to:
Anyone who can prove, under strict scientific conditions, that they have supernatural powers.

*Attempts are still being made to verify the details of this challenge.*

The winning of this prize will also be considered a successful completion of the JREF preliminary test.
Winners of the JREF $1,000,000 challenge will automatically be awarded this prize too.
Source: http://www.randi.org/jr/11-30-1999.html


USA: Fayetteville Freethinkers' $1,000 award
Open to:
Anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.
Web page: http://members.aol.com/fayfreethinkers/index.html


USA: Tampa Bay Skeptics' $1000 award
Open To:
Anyone able to demonstrate any paranormal phenomenon under mutually agreed upon observing conditions.
Link: http://www.tampabayskeptics.org/challenges.html


USA: North Texas Skeptics' $12,000 award
Open To:
Any person who can demonstrate any psychic or paranormal power or ability under scientifically valid observing conditions.
Link: http://www.ntskeptics.org/challenge/challenge.htm


India: B. Premanand 100,000 rupee award ($2,000 approx)
Open to:
Any person or persons who will demonstrate any psychic, supernatural of paranormal ability of any kind under satisfactory observing conditions.
Link: http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/rules.htm


USA: Eric Krieg $10,000 award
Open To:
Any persons who can demonstrate a working free energy device
Link: http://www.phact.org/e/freetest.html
Additionally there is a $2,000 commission available to anyone referring an applicant who performs a successful test. (This commission is not included in the total below).


USA: Center for Inquiry - West $50,000 award
Open To:
Anyone who can prove paranormal or paranatural ability.
Link: http://www.iigwest.com/challenge.html


UK: Tony Youens £5,000 award ($9,000 approx)
Open To:
Any psychic that can present a claim capable of being objectively tested.
Link: http://www.tonyyouens.com/challenge.htm


Finland: Finnish Association of Skeptics' (in collaboration with Hannu Karttunen and Iiro Seppänen) 10,000 Euros award ($12,000 approx)
Open To:
Anybody who can produce a paranormal phenomenon under satisfactory observing conditions
Link: http://www.skepsis.fi/eng/ (Abbreviated description, in English)


Finland: Finnish Association of Skeptics' (Skepsis) 10,000 Euros grant ($12,000 approx)
Open to:
The first non-human alien visitor that applies for it in person, and agrees to leave a sample of DNA (or the equivalent) for scientific study, or any human contactee who helps Skepsis get in touch with the aforementioned alien visitor.
Link: http://www.skepsis.fi/eng/ (Abbreviated description, in English)


Belgium: SKEPP (in association with the Sisyphus project) 10,500 Euros award ($13,000 approx)
Open to:
Anyone who can show that they have paranormal capacities or prove pseudoscientific claims.
A successful initial test, in the presence of SKEPP representatives, will result in an award of 500 Euros. An additional 10,00 Euro sum will be awarded on the successful completion of a second test, with representatives of the Sisyphus project in attendance.
Link: http://www.skepp.be/prijzen/de-sisyphus-prijs/ (in Dutch - click here for the Alta Vista Babel Fish Translation service)


Kazakhstan: Kazakhstan Commission for the Investigation of Anomalous Phenomena (KCIAP) $1,000 award
Open To:
Any person who can show they are in contact with an extraterrestrial intelligence by identifying (with the ET's aid) the path of 10 comets that are not yet known to science. A precise figure, identifying the moment in which each of the comets passes the perihelion of their respective orbits, will be required.
Contact: Sergey Efimov efim@aphi.kz


Italy: Alfredo Barrago's 50,000 Euro bet ($60,000 approx)
Open to:
Any "medium, seers, sensitive etc." who can demonstrate a phenomenon of a "paranormal nature" in the presence of a committee of observers.
Should the demonstration be successful, the 50,000 Euros put forward by Alfredo Barrago will be handed to the claimant. In the event of failure, the 50,000 Euros offered by the claimant will be given to charity.
Link: http://www.antiplagio.org/eng/pages/millenium.html


New Zealand: Stuart Landsborough's Puzzling World NZ$50,000 challenge ($35,000 approx)
Open to:
Anyone who can find the hidden promissory note with their paranormal powers.
NZ$1,000 ($700 approx) challenge entry cost.
Contact: info@puzzlingworld.co.nz






see?
the jref is ¨just¨ one million.. if you want that million
jump throught the hoops and pass the preliminary test
before critizing what would it happen if i pass it... FIRST proove your ability! then start your critique
it is idiotic to do this when nothing has been proved in advance

however i do apologize for my earlier post
you got to me with the dumb smuck comment brett, i will try to behave better
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby highflyertoo » 15 Aug 2009, 09:36

Randi's rules have a safe guard of never having to pay the money.

Something about ''if'' Science can work out the answer in the future to the paranormal feat.

There is a way to catch Randi out, and it involves challenging Randi to change the Rules... Of which I am doing. Science will be my toy to through away...
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 10 Oct 2009, 21:59

highflyertoo wrote:There is a way to catch Randi out, and it involves challenging Randi to change the Rules... Of which I am doing. Science will be my toy to through away...


I doubt very much that science will be as tolerant as this forum when it comes to you using it as a 'toy' to get attention.

Highflyertoo - the JREF Million Dollar Challenge or whatever it is properly called, is a program put out by a private corporation. If you don't like their protocol or rules, then MOVE ON. This forum was not created as a personal soap-box for you in an attempt to make the JREF sit up and take notice of your complaints or personal ideas of what does or doesn't constitute a fair test to prove or disprove your psychic ability.

Many members here have gone around and around in circles with you offering their excellent advice and options. Many have taken more than enough time explaining the requirements and procedures as set forth by the JREF. Using this forum in some attempt to change those requirements is NOT going to happen no matter how you whine. It is, what it is! Like it or not. If you don't care to follow the JREF procedure, then you need to start looking for another venue that suits your fancy.

The bottom line is that the JREF says they will award one million dollars 'if' their qualifications are met. Unless you can follow their rules and perform to their procedures, you are not eligible to be considered. We can all see that the JREF has been very thorough in spelling out their demands. You posted every detail in the begining of this thread. What part of their rules do you NOT understand?
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby Don » 11 Oct 2009, 02:44

highflyertoo wrote:[
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.


So if a person says that he can read someone's mind, and during the test causes things to fly across the room by some unknown mental power, by the definition of this "test" the person is a failure.

3. We will consult competent statisticians when an evaluation of the experimental design, is required.


I see. Only they are allowed to consult "competent statisticians." The person being tested cannot do this. Nor is there anything in these rules that allows for challenging motives, skills, credentials, experience, or agenda of these so-called "competent statisticians."

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the setup, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.


So you're free to edit, manipulate, misinterpret, and lie about anything and everything that happens. That doesn't seem right. If I were a "psychic" I'd want to sue you for doing this.

8. When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.


Wait a minute. First you say that you're free to lie about the person you test, you can misrepresent everything about the test. you could even edit photos and videos to show the opposite of what actually happened and ruin a person's reputation and possibly his or her career, then you say that the person being tested surrenders the right to sue you if you commit fraud, libel, or slander?

[quote}NOTE: No special rules, exceptions, conditions, standards, or favors will be granted without the mutual agreement of all those concerned – in advance. Any applicant who refuses to agree to meet the rules as outlined here, will not be considered to have ever been an applicant. [/quote]

So a person could be an applicant, but because he doesn't agree to allow you to libel him he or she must claim they were never an applicant? Isn't this lying? Isn't this fraud? Isn't this misrepresentation?


Seems to me that anyone who agrees to being tested under these conditions would be an idiot and setting him/herself up for failure. According to these rules, even if you win they are free to lie about what you did and there's nothing you can do about it.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 11 Oct 2009, 02:54

great post don
is incredible the lenghts a believer would go to maintain his faith in fairy tales

dance ! :lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Oct 2009, 02:57

Don - I'm not a lawyer but it sure does seem as if you may be on to something here. What I know about contractual agreements, you could write on the head of a pin but I know if you sign one, you had better make sure to read it and perhaps have someone with a law degree explain it to you first.

I'm yet to see a contract written up by the party of the first part that is in the best interest of the party of the second part. Since it clearly states that there will be no changes to this contract, then any negotiations of the terms by the party of the second part, will not be happening. :D
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Oct 2009, 03:01

ciscop wrote:great post don
is incredible the lenghts a believer would go to maintain his faith in fairy tales

dance ! :lol:


What fairy tale? You mean the JREF contract? That's far from a fairy tale, it's a non-negotiable legal document between two consenting parties. As for finding proof that anything of a paranormal nature is possible, it just proves that the JREF has good lawyers.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 11 Oct 2009, 03:19

nah
i meant don´s post
is pretty much what believers do best
Bash skeptics instead of proving their fairy tales beliefs
nobody is forcing the ¨idiots¨ (as Don wisely calls them) to take the test
is A MILLION DOLLARS for heaven´s sake! is their contest
i would like to see first a GUY proving he has any type of supernatural abilities before he starts bashing the contest he couldnt win
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Oct 2009, 03:34

ciscop wrote:nah
i meant don´s post
is pretty much what believers do best
Bash skeptics instead of proving their fairy tales beliefs
nobody is forcing the ¨idiots¨ (as Don wisely calls them) to take the test
is A MILLION DOLLARS for heaven´s sake! is their contest
i would like to see first a GUY proving he has any type of supernatural abilities before he starts bashing the contest he couldnt win


I don't believe that Don was bashing skeptics or the contest. Just pointing out some points in their agreement that seem rather ambigious. Don also does not calling anyone an 'idiot' he plainly states that with the way the agreement is written you'd have to be an idiot to accept those sort of terms.

However, your post does do what some skeptics do best... bash believers by calling their ideas and thoughts "fairytales". Which is why I asked you what part of Don's post about his opinion of the contract was a fairytale. I was just curious.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 11 Oct 2009, 03:35

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ciscop wrote:nah
i meant don´s post
is pretty much what believers do best
Bash skeptics instead of proving their fairy tales beliefs
nobody is forcing the ¨idiots¨ (as Don wisely calls them) to take the test
is A MILLION DOLLARS for heaven´s sake! is their contest
i would like to see first a GUY proving he has any type of supernatural abilities before he starts bashing the contest he couldnt win


I don't believe that Don was bashing skeptics or the contest. Just pointing out some points in their agreement that seem rather ambigious. Don also does not calling anyone an 'idiot' he plainly states that with the way the agreement is written you'd have to be an idiot to accept those sort of terms.

However, your post does do what some skeptics do best... bash believers by calling their ideas and thoughts "fairytales". Which is why I asked you what part of Don's post about his opinion of the contract was a fairytale. I was just curious.


:lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby NinjaPuppy » 11 Oct 2009, 03:40

Ciscop - It's nice to know that you find us all so amusing.
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby ciscop » 11 Oct 2009, 04:02

ooh!
i wasnt laughing
wrong emoticon
i meant to put this one :D
just a smile :-p
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Randi's Flim Flam Rules

Postby brett » 11 Oct 2009, 08:18

ah but come now NP - can you honestly say you don't find the skeptics amusing at times ?? :D

:lol:
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