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Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 11 Feb 2010, 20:05

Kevin Kane wrote: But in 40 years since, Randi has yet to provide evidence that Geller is using altered spoons. Nor has he credibly replicated Geller's feat.


This is an incorrect statement. He has credibly replicated Geller's tricks. And one doesn't need to use altered spoons. There are several ways to do the spoon bending trick. If you were to look at videos of Geller doing it, you can plainly see him bending the spoon himself with his hands. This doesn't need an altered spoon, only one that bends rather easily which are most of them.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Kevin Kane » 11 Feb 2010, 20:32

What was the point of the Carson show advice? Uri was not allowed near the spoons, nor allowed to select his own. Possible fraud by Carson and Randi?

According to magicians, including ciscop, Uri is the better spoon bender.

"Uri bent a spoon for me. The first time he did, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned - completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I;ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or he is a very sad person."
- David Blaine
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 11 Feb 2010, 21:44

Kevin Kane wrote:What was the point of the Carson show advice? Uri was not allowed near the spoons, nor allowed to select his own. Possible fraud by Carson and Randi?

According to magicians, including ciscop, Uri is the better spoon bender.

"Uri bent a spoon for me. The first time he did, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned - completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I;ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or he is a very sad person."
- David Blaine

Are you aware that many of Blaine's "stunts" are tricks? (Case in point, his "ice chamber" was a trick, not a feat of anything amazing.) Of course he's going to say that, he uses him to further his own career.
I've never said that Uri isn't good at what he does, only that he isn't psychic nor does he bend spoons in any way but trickery.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 12 Feb 2010, 00:19

Kevin Kane wrote:What was the point of the Carson show advice? Uri was not allowed near the spoons, nor allowed to select his own. Possible fraud by Carson and Randi?

According to magicians, including ciscop, Uri is the better spoon bender.

"Uri bent a spoon for me. The first time he did, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned - completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I;ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or he is a very sad person."
- David Blaine


dude, how dumb can you be that you are quoting a magician
another dude that uses trickery for living
david blaine is the man
but he is one of those that support what uri does since david plays the part of a shaman, a mystic
guys like uri help him bring credibility to what he does

never forget criss angel
criss challenged him also and uri backed away
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 12 Feb 2010, 01:33

You skeptics keep calling it 'trickery'. How is magic considered 'trickery' when the word 'magic' is usually paired up with word 'trick'. Especially when referrencing magicians?

Granted, Uri Geller did take this over the top in his attempt for fame but it's not like showmen won't grab what they can to make their name a household word.

I don't see skeptics launching a debate on 'Reality TV' even if there is no reality in those shows. It's all schtick.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 12 Feb 2010, 02:48

I consider magic tricks to me just that, magic tricks. When I think of "magic" alone, I often think of the warlock/Merlin types. "Trickery," IMO, is trying to fool someone without them know they are getting fooled--i.e. "Used card salesmen often use "trickery" to get us to buy their lemons.

And what do you mean by "debate" for a reality show? Do you think we skeptics should start a show debunking "Paranormal State?"
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 12 Feb 2010, 03:44

ProfWag wrote:Do you think we skeptics should start a show debunking "Paranormal State?"


a while back.. when the movie opened in theatres
i remember reading in the JREF blog.. that allison wanted to boycott the movie
only because she thought it was missleading people
that´s the closest i have seen the JREF of having an Index of forbidden books like the Catholic Church
that was a retarded move on her part and i mail her on it.

Im sorry
i am a huge Horror movie fan and if there´s people that went out of the theatre thinking it was true i think that was awesome
how cool it was when they went home and talked to their peers and people told them it wasnt real? that there was going to be a DVD release with an alternate ending? that the actors are walking red carpets?
who cares
thats entertainment :-)

no book nor movie should be boycotted,
those are the things a skeptic should fight, not promote

when we say.. uri used trickery we mean
he is a magician
he isnt using his mind
he is using his AWESOME missdirection ability.. im telling you.. that guy is a genius
is so bad that he went the wrong path insisting he is for real when he isnt.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 12 Feb 2010, 03:51

ciscop wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Do you think we skeptics should start a show debunking "Paranormal State?"


a while back.. when the movie opened in theatres
i remember reading in the JREF blog.. that allison wanted to boycott the movie
only because she thought it was missleading people
that´s the closest i have seen the JREF of having an Index of forbidden books like the Catholic Church
that was a retarded move on her part and i mail her on it.

Im sorry
i am a huge Horror movie fan and if there´s people that went out of the theatre thinking it was true i think that was awesome
how cool it was when they went home and talked to their peers and people told them it wasnt real? that there was going to be a DVD release with an alternate ending? that the actors are walking red carpets?
who cares
thats entertainment :-)


I can tell you this, the Bare Witch Project scared the bejeezus out of me primarily because there was that "what if?" factor played into it...(or maybe it was the Blair Witch Project...either way, they both were good... ;-) )
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 12 Feb 2010, 06:43

ProfWag wrote:I consider magic tricks to me just that, magic tricks. When I think of "magic" alone, I often think of the warlock/Merlin types.

That is usually spelled 'Magick' to separate the two.

ProfWag wrote:"Trickery," IMO, is trying to fool someone without them know they are getting fooled--i.e. "Used card salesmen often use "trickery" to get us to buy their lemons.

That's a pretty good way to put it but that is not how that word seems to be used in this topic.

ProfWag wrote:And what do you mean by "debate" for a reality show? Do you think we skeptics should start a show debunking "Paranormal State?"

No. I mean that I don't see skeptics debating the terminology 'Reality TV'. None of it is 'reality'. However, I do find it interesting that you ask if skeptic should debunk "Paranormal State" as an example.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby highflyertoo » 12 Feb 2010, 09:39

ciscop have you ever met Uri Geller? or are you jumping on Randi's band wagon to vent off steam at Uri.



News Flash... Uri is trying to ruin everyone's dessert spoon by making them inoperable. Is there no one to able to stop him?..... where's super hero ciscop?......
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Kevin Kane » 12 Feb 2010, 12:21

ciscop wrote:
when we say.. uri used trickery we mean
he is a magician
he isnt using his mind
he is using his AWESOME missdirection ability.. im telling you.. that guy is a genius
is so bad that he went the wrong path insisting he is for real when he isnt.


Scientists, good ones at least, go by what the evidence supports. If Uri is able to fool scientists in a controlled lab, and able to fool fellow magicians like Blaine, it raises the question .. Are other magicians also fooling scientists? All magicians attempt to fool people, so why should anyone take magicians serious when they speak?

Secondly: Uri is claiming psychic power. People are free to believe it, or free to disbelieve it. So why are skeptics trying to force their unproven belief on other people. The people who believe Uri are not trying to convert people, so why are skeptics acting like missionaries and trying to get people to believe the same as they do? Especially since skeptic beliefs about Uri are not scientifically proven facts.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 12 Feb 2010, 21:55

Kevin Kane wrote:
Scientists, good ones at least, go by what the evidence supports. If Uri is able to fool scientists in a controlled lab, and able to fool fellow magicians like Blaine, it raises the question .. Are other magicians also fooling scientists? All magicians attempt to fool people, so why should anyone take magicians serious when they speak?

Secondly: Uri is claiming psychic power. People are free to believe it, or free to disbelieve it. So why are skeptics trying to force their unproven belief on other people. The people who believe Uri are not trying to convert people, so why are skeptics acting like missionaries and trying to get people to believe the same as they do? Especially since skeptic beliefs about Uri are not scientifically proven facts.

There is not a magician that I am aware of that has been fooled by Uri Geller. Not even Blaine who, as we mentioned, said that to further his own career. Plain and simple.
Secondly, Uri no longer claims psychic powers. We skeptics try to get people to understand that belief in the parnormal can have devastating consequences. Enjoy the entertainment and spend a little money here and there if that entertains you, but people should be aware of the rip-offs which, unfortunately, appear to be growing.
You mention that our belief in Uri is not a scientifically proven fact, which is true to a point, but we also want people to know that psychic abilities are not a scientifically proven fact either.
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Kevin Kane » 12 Feb 2010, 23:08

ProfWag wrote:You mention that our belief in Uri is not a scientifically proven fact, which is true to a point, but we also want people to know that psychic abilities are not a scientifically proven fact either.


The paranormal may not be a scientifically proven fact, but the normal (human consciousness) isn't a scientifically proven fact either. Are humans conscious? YES. Can it be scientifically proven? NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

"As there is no clear definition of consciousness and no empirical measure exists to test for its presence, it has been argued that due to the nature of the problem of consciousness, empirical tests are intrinsically impossible."
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ProfWag » 12 Feb 2010, 23:44

Kevin Kane wrote:
ProfWag wrote:You mention that our belief in Uri is not a scientifically proven fact, which is true to a point, but we also want people to know that psychic abilities are not a scientifically proven fact either.


The paranormal may not be a scientifically proven fact, but the normal (human consciousness) isn't a scientifically proven fact either. Are humans conscious? YES. Can it be scientifically proven? NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

"As there is no clear definition of consciousness and no empirical measure exists to test for its presence, it has been argued that due to the nature of the problem of consciousness, empirical tests are intrinsically impossible."

Again, the important thing is that people are aware that psychics/astrologers may not have any validity to them. I've read of people spending their life savings because psychics/astrologers tell them this or that when, in reality, they could probably have better spent their money on food and shelter. (I can easily provide references if requested...)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 13 Feb 2010, 00:57

Kevin Kane wrote:
ciscop wrote:
when we say.. uri used trickery we mean
he is a magician
he isnt using his mind
he is using his AWESOME missdirection ability.. im telling you.. that guy is a genius
is so bad that he went the wrong path insisting he is for real when he isnt.


Scientists, good ones at least, go by what the evidence supports. If Uri is able to fool scientists in a controlled lab, and able to fool fellow magicians like Blaine, it raises the question .. Are other magicians also fooling scientists? All magicians attempt to fool people, so why should anyone take magicians serious when they speak?

Secondly: Uri is claiming psychic power. People are free to believe it, or free to disbelieve it. So why are skeptics trying to force their unproven belief on other people. The people who believe Uri are not trying to convert people, so why are skeptics acting like missionaries and trying to get people to believe the same as they do? Especially since skeptic beliefs about Uri are not scientifically proven facts.


The experiments on uri were not controlled
I would also like a link on what Blaine said. I have seen Blaine on magic conventions bending spoons
maybe we will see it in a special this year.
will that also be trickery or sleight or hand? (cause it couldnt be psychic)

really dude, your ability to play dumb is amazing

go and see the thread on Wolf Messing dude
Uri is done deal, he bent spoons that were handled by him

Wolf Messing went into a bank and got money out of it
and bypass Russian Security..
who is better?

a guy that has been debunked and can only bend spoon and do some tricks
or a guy that has done so many amazing feats and has never been debunked?
do your homework
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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