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OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jan 2010, 01:05

Kevin Kane wrote:
Potassium bichromate probably raises some homeopathic concerns, but as you noted, it's extremely dilute.

Tylenol is derived from coal tar. The early chemists loved coal tar. They made hundreds of compounds from this thick black industrial sludge. Ibuprofin (Advil, Motrin, etc) is derived from crude oil. Rat poison is also made from these sources.

Toxins produce their medical effects by inhibiting specific enzymes to change their balance, or by killing pathogens. In some cases they are used to stimulate or antagonize actions. Pharmacology is basically the use of poisons; pollution or other foreign substances, to inhibit or antagonize the body into "health".

At least they have been shown to work.
Since by definition, whatever ingredients might be in a homeopathic product are diluted trillions of times over resulting in virtually nothing but water, why would one think they would work? I know what the homeopathics say about it, but the thought just doesn't pass my common sense test. Sorry.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 23 Jan 2010, 03:52

common sense??.. hahaha
common sense is subjective, not absolute
and goes hand to hand with intelligence and knowledge

the less you know
the more you are likely to believe
that water is magic! :lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 23 Jan 2010, 03:57

now that i think about it...

conan doyle was obviously an intelligent guy
but he lacked common sence.. believed in mediums, ghosts and FAIRIES..
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jan 2010, 04:03

ciscop wrote:common sense??.. hahaha
common sense is subjective, not absolute
and goes hand to hand with intelligence and knowledge

the less you know
the more you are likely to believe
that water is magic! :lol:

Note that I said "my" common sense. What one perceives is common sense is not the same as what others perceive. Although, come to think of it, my common sense is perfect... ;-) (yes, that was a joke...)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 23 Jan 2010, 04:08

ProfWag wrote:
ciscop wrote:common sense??.. hahaha
common sense is subjective, not absolute
and goes hand to hand with intelligence and knowledge

the less you know
the more you are likely to believe
that water is magic! :lol:

Note that I said "my" common sense. What one perceives is common sense is not the same as what others perceive. Although, come to think of it, my common sense is perfect... ;-) (yes, that was a joke...)


i highly doubted
nobody that thinks golf is a real sport
has a good common sence

JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUST KIDDING !! ;)
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 23 Jan 2010, 04:37

ProfWag wrote:At least they have been shown to work.
Since by definition, whatever ingredients might be in a homeopathic product are diluted trillions of times over resulting in virtually nothing but water, why would one think they would work? I know what the homeopathics say about it, but the thought just doesn't pass my common sense test. Sorry.


It's a matter of scale. Water is poison if you drink too much. Are these dilute ingredients inert? No. Can the cells detect or 'sense' them? Indetermined, but logically possible. Ineffectiveness hasn't been proven and the placebo effect is non-scientific. So current arguments against homeopathy fail.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 23 Jan 2010, 04:59

Can you (anyone) say with any degree of certainty how much of the percieved or actual effects/effectiveness of homeopathy is due to the placebo effect?

No.

So it is possible that some, none, or all of the effects are due to homeopathy.

Yes, it is.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jan 2010, 05:25

Kevin Kane wrote:Can you (anyone) say with any degree of certainty how much of the percieved or actual effects/effectiveness of homeopathy is due to the placebo effect?

No.

So it is possible that some, none, or all of the effects are due to homeopathy.

Yes, it is.

Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny.
Is it possible that some, none, or all of them are real?
Yes it is.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 23 Jan 2010, 05:37

ProfWag scores high on the skeptic charts with Arguement #4: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page4.htm
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jan 2010, 05:49

NinjaPuppy wrote:ProfWag scores high on the skeptic charts with Arguement #4: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page4.htm

I would say I should get VERY high marks for that Ninja! 'Course, regardless of what's in Scepcop's "Treatise," It's still true. The argument that I can't prove homeopathy doesn't work is as legitimate as the argument that you can't prove Santa doesn't exist, with the exception that homeopaths HAVE been studied and they still can't be proven to work, yet Santa has not even been studied. Seems to me that my argument concerning Santa is more legit than the counter-argument concerning homeopathy. What say y'all?
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 23 Jan 2010, 06:19

well.. i know
data means nothing to you
but here is a list of people that went ahead and try it homeopathy..
whats the harm right??

Here are 437 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jacqueline Alderslade
Age: 55
Hollymount, County Mayo, Ireland
Died (asthma attack)
July 9, 2001

A homeopath told her to give up her asthma medication. She later died of an asthma attack. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorie Atikian
Age: 17 months
Ontario, Canada
Died (malnutrition, pneumonia)
September 25, 1987

Lorie's parents, concerned about modern food additives, were advised to give her an organic vegetarian diet. She was also treated with herbal & homeopathic remedies and an energy machine. Her parents were convicted of neglect. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cameron Ayres
Age: 6 months
Fulham, west London, England
Died
May 1999

Cameron was born with a rare but treatable disorder, but his parents distrusted conventional medicine. A nurse/homeopath begged them to take him to a doctor, but they refused. He died. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heather Charles
Bloomsbury, Central London, England
Inadequate treatment
June 8, 2002

She saw a doctor for a throat infection and an injured ankle. The doctor used dowsing to select a homeopathic remedy. Her throat did not improve and she had to get antibiotics in another city. The doctor was disciplined. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sylvie Cousseau
Age: 41
Paris, France
Died
March 31, 2001

Sylvie was diagnosed HIV positive, but pursued alternative treatments for her disease including homeopathy, acupuncture and drinking her own urine. She eventually died of AIDS. Read more & more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucille Craven
Age: 54
Pelham, New Hampshire
Died (untreated cancer)
2000

Lucille concealed the diagnosis of breast cancer from her family. She secretly consulted a naturopath and took homeopathic remedies. She also used quack treatments like blood irradiation. Her cancer raged out of control and she died. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isabella Denley
Age: 13 months
Kew, Victoria, Australia
Died (untreated epilepsy)
October 19, 2002

Isabella was prescribed medications for her epilepsy. Instead of using them, her parents consulted an iridologist, an applied kinesiologist, a psychic and an osteopath. She was being treated purely with homeopathic medication when she died. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Gonzalez
Anthem, Arizona
Died
2006

Ralph went in for outpatient cosmetic surgery. The doctor performing his liposuction was actually a homeopath. Instead of looking better, Ralph ended up dead. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mahendra Gundawar & 6 others
Chandrapur, India
Three dead, seven blinded
December 14, 2007

Gundawar was a homeopath who sold a new tonic, recently introduced on the market, that was supposed to reduce fatigue. He himself died, along with several of his patients. Several others were blinded, and other cases occured elsewhere in India. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President Warren G. Harding
Age: 57
Palace Hotel, San Francisco, California
Died
August 2, 1923

Despite the misgivings of a physician, his personal homeopath let him do arduous tasks and speak in the heat. When he had a bout of food poisoning, the homeopath applied heavy doses of purgatives to flush out toxins. He died. No autopsy was done. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Healey (musician)
Age: 41
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Time wasted on useless treatments
March 2, 2008

In 2007 Healey underwent surgery to remove cancerous tissue from his legs and both lungs. Radiation and chemotherapy failed to halt the spread of the disease, as did alternative homeopathic treatment in the U.S. this year. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Howie
Age: 49
South Mayo, Ireland
Died (untreated cancer)
April 22, 2003

A natural health therapist & homeopath told Paul and his wife that he would die if he used conventional medicine. The treatable tumor in his neck grew to the point where he died of suffocation. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russell Jenkins
Age: 52
Southsea, Hampshire, England
Died (untreated wound)
April 17, 2007

After stepping on an electric plug, he self-treated the wound on his foot using honey on the advice of his homeopath. A diabetic, his foot became gangrenous. He died, but doctors said if he'd sought help just 2 hours earlier he could have been saved. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kira Jinkinson
Age: 11 months
Bloomsbury, Central London, England
Misdiagnosed gastroenteritis
October 22, 2000

Kira had an upset stomach. Her doctor used dowsing to choose a homeopathic remedy, claiming that geopathic stress patterns beneath her home were to blame. The baby was later found to be suffering from gastroenteritis. The doctor was disciplined. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coretta Scott King (civil rights)
Age: 78
Rosarito, Mexico
Last days spent on pointless treatments
January 30, 2006

She was the widow of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and a respected civil rights leader herself. She was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, and sought out alternative therapies from a clinic in Mexico. She died there of complications. Read more & more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Lemonius
Bloomsbury, Central London, England
Inadequate treatment
June 13, 2002

He saw a doctor for a sore throat and was prescribed homeopathic remedies. Later at a hospital he was diagnosed with a throat infection and abcess. The doctor was disciplined. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Levy
Patagonia, Arizona
Died
2001

He was injected with "bovine adrenal fluid" as a treatment for fatigue. He developed a gas gangrene infection and died. The family sued and settled out of court. The homeopathic board dismissed a complaint against the practitioner. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Francesca "Chex" Linke
Age: 37
Los Angeles, California
Died (untreated cancer)
March 27, 1986

She rejected traditional treatments for her breast cancer, instead choosing homeopathy. The eulogy at her funeral was later made into a one-man play called "Time Flies When You're Alive" which was shown on HBO. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Susannah McCorkle (Jazz singer)
Age: 55
New York City, New York
Suicide
May 19, 2001

She battled depression all her life, but stopped taking antidepressants due to side effects. She consulted a homeopath instead. After a setback she promised a friend she would take the Tegretol that had been prescribed. Four days later she was dead. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvia Millecam (actress)
Age: 45
Boxmeer, Netherlands
Died (untreated cancer)
August 19, 2001

A popular television personality, she sought out alternative therapies for her breast cancer, including a new age psychic healer. Two of her physicians were later barred permanently from medical practice. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Nedlouf
Orlando, Florida
Sold useless treatments for her cancer, died
2007

When her cancer recurred and was declared inoperable, she turned to a homeopathic physician. He prescribed thousands of dollars of treatments and claimed she was being cured, and yet her cancer raged out of control. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah Parkinson (actress)
Age: 41
East Sussex, England
Died (untreated breast cancer)
September 23, 2003

When she was diagnosed with breast cancer, she was concerned that chemotherapy would prevent her from using IVF to start a family. Instead she used acupuncture, spiritual healing, homeopathy and Johrei to treat it. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Paynter
Age: 68
Columbus, Ohio
Hospitalized with kidney failure
1988

He saw a chiropractor for help with his back pain. He was treated with heat, herbs, tonics and homeopathy. Three days after his last treatment, he was rushed to a hospital and barely recovered. A judgment for $147,500 was awarded by a court. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diane Picha
Janesville, Wisconsin
Died (untreated cancer)
April 2000

When her cancer recurred, Diane tried homeopathic treatment. She was sold unapproved substances and a machine. After she died, her daughter sued the practitioner. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janeza Podgoršek
Age: 42
Trboje, Slovenia
Died (malaria)
1996

A physician/homeopath advised him to use homoepathic preventatives for malaria prior to a trip to Africa. After he returned with the disease she continued to treat him with homeopathy. He died. Her license was revoked and she got two years probation. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paula Radcliffe (athlete)
Age: 32
Athens, Greece
Olympic medal attempts ruined
August 22, 2004

She is a British athlete. Weeks before the 2004 Athens Olympics, a doctor injected her with a homeopathic remedy for a leg injury. The treatments allegedly caused a stomach ailment that forced her to withdraw from the marathon after 23 miles. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert A. Rizzi
Age: 48
Norfolk, Virginia
Died
1993

His Hodgkin's disease recurred but he did not want to do chemotherapy again. His oncologist treated him with homeopathic remedies instead. After he died, a lawsuit resulted in a judgement of $235,715. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katie Ross
Age: 16
Las Vegas, Nevada



She was suffering from colitis but her mother chose to treat it homeopathically. She was down to 50 pounds when child services intervened. She was hospitalized and her colon had to be surgically removed. A judge ruled neglect. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alicia Santizo
Anthem, Arizona
Died
2007

Alicia went in for outpatient cosmetic surgery. The procedure was performed by a homeopath. Instead of looking better, Alicia ended up dead. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diane Shepherd
Provo, Utah
Died (untreated cancer)
October 20, 2004

She refused surgery for breast cancer and went to a naturopath. There she was diagnosed using muscle tests, treated with an energy machine and given homeopathic remedies. She died within five months. The naturopath was arrested. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malka Sitner
Age: 1
Ashdod, Israel
Died
May 28, 2006

Police believe her parents disregarded a doctor's prescription of antibiotics and took her to a homeopath instead. She died. Because autopsies are forbidden amongst her family's ultra-Orthodox sect, an angry mob stole her body and secretly buried it Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gloria Thomas
Age: 9 months
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Died (untreated infection)
May 8, 2002

Gloria was diagnosed with eczema at four months. Her father, who taught and practiced homeopathy, treated her using that instead. She died of sepsis caused by broken skin due to her eczema. Read more & more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaspar Tomlinson
Age: 0
London, England
Brain injury during childbirth
December 2004

Jaspar's father is one of England's leading naturopaths. He was warned by a GP that his wife's pregnancy could end in stillbirth. At home, the "homeopathy assisted" birth went horribly wrong. He suffered brain damage and now has cerebral palsy. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Vickery
Age: 54
Wick End, Stagsden, Bedford, England
Pointless dental surgery while near death
November 8-9, 2004

He was dying of motor neuron disease, but a homeopath convinced him it was actually caused by mercury from his fillings. Knowing he was near death and could be killed by anaesthetic, his toxin-obsessed dentist replaced them. He died 16 days later. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lady Victoria Waymouth or "Ms. A"
Age: 57
southern France
Died
September 1, 2004

In a telephone & email consultation (with no physical exam), an alternative care doctor told her to discontinue any other medication and use homeopathic remedies. Within days she died of heart failure. The doctor was suspended for a year. Read more & more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa Weatherington & 339 others
Age: 50
Phoenix, Arizona
Anosmia (loss of sense of smell)
January 19, 2006

The makers of Zicam, a "homeopathic" cold remedy, settled 340 lawsuits by consumers who claimed it damaged or destroyed their sense of smell. The company did not admit guilt but paid out $12 million. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 melanoma patient
Jerusalem, Israel
Delayed treatment, worsening disease
1991

Homeopatthy Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
33 breast cancer patients
Karachi, Pakistan
Delayed treatment, worsening disease
2003

This study found that many breast cancer patients in Pakistan delayed medical treatment in favor of homeopathic remedies. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 women
Age: 26,34,39,40,57
Sweden
Malaria
Nov 1994 - Jan 1995

This report found 5 women who used a homeopathic preventative instead of conventional medicine prior to a trip to Africa. On return, all five had malaria. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"C.C." (woman)
Age: 45
West Palm Beach, Florida
Improper treatment, infection
December 1995 - January 1996

Her "biological dentist" performed many unnecessary procedures on her including removing amalgam fillings and treating her with "autonomic response testing" and homeopathy. His license was revoked five years later. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"John Doe"
Age: 84
Westmount, Quebec, Canada
Died
June 13, 2008

He was injected with a mineral solution by his homeopath/naturopath. He died the next day of a heart attack, and it was ruled a homicide. The naturopath faces charges. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"L. R."
Age: 51
Anthem, Arizona
Died
July 3, 2007

She went in for outpatient cosmetic surgery. Her procedure was actually performed by a homeopath. Instead of looking better, she died. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jane Roe"
Age: 1
Wellington, New Zealand
Died (untreated meningitis)
1991

The mother refused antibiotics for the baby's ear infection, preferring homeopathic advice. The baby grew more ill and was eventually hospitalized with meningitis. The baby died. Read more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jane Roe"
Age: 40
Nice, France
Malaria, multiple organ failure
November 18, 2000

This case report is about a woman who used a homeopathic malaria preventative, but contracted malaria. At one point she suffered multiple organ failure. Read more & more

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



here is the link
http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 23 Jan 2010, 07:28

So homeopathy failed to cure the same diseases that pharmacology fails to cure, with the exact same lethal results every time. It would indicate that homeopathy and pharmacology are compatible :)

Dogs can smell compounds in the PP Trillion. Cellular communication certainly exists at homeopathic levels. Communication that can affect changes in the system, just as they do when dogs hit on target smells. If the compound is actively sought (trained dog) and not ignored, a dramatic series of events will occur as a result. It's just not the brute force chemical interactions seen in pharmacology, ripping apart molecules, killing cells, etc. that scientists expect and love.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jan 2010, 09:10

Kevin Kane wrote:So homeopathy failed to cure the same diseases that pharmacology fails to cure, with the exact same lethal results every time. It would indicate that homeopathy and pharmacology are compatible :)

Actually, I believe that many of the people would have lived longer or more comfortably with conventional medicine, but again that's just my opinion. (And the opinion of many, many certified medical doctors across the globe as well.)
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 23 Jan 2010, 15:31

I'm saying that the body could ignore homepathic treatments easier than it can ignore pharmecological ones, resulting in more variation of results, especially with (modern) people whose bodies have been trained to ignore anything but high potency drugs. Homeopathic cures with more sensitive .. or trained individuals seems possible. To many scientists, it would appear the results were random or questionable, hence, the false and unproven cry of "placebo". It doesn't mean homeopathy doesn't work .. it just means it doesn't work on the desensitized and chemically polluted.

Skeptics are committing fraud. Would it be OK if I were to say: all pharmacology is rat poison?

All of it .. except if you can show me some that isn't rat poison. But the rest of it is rat poison .. because I said it is.

And it's easy to prove .. get a lab rat and shove pharmaceutical products into it until it dies. Why do you think they use lab rats anyway? Because they are making Rat Poison!!
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Hey, look at me .. I can be a Pharm Shill too!

Postby Kevin Kane » 23 Jan 2010, 19:18

The ultimate test of whether a pharmaceutical product works, is whether it can kill a rat or not. If your medicine can't kill a rat, it's probably too weak. It's a sissy drug. Buy a stronger drug .. one that has been scientifically tested and proven to kill rats. Don't waste money on fraudulent sissy drugs. Disease is caused by rats. Only buy medicine that can kill rats.


.
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