View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 11:55

More nonsense:
Passive detection does not imply response, and it sure doesn't imply defense procedures.
It would fall into the successive homeopathic ranges, with 1X = 1 part in 10. This is much smaller than 1X.


1. Detection implies response. A response does not imply the type of response.
2. You statement of "successive homeopathic ranges" is ridiculous when you learn that typical homeopathic concentrations are 10c to 60c.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08






Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 12:02

Your Darwin nonsense is meaningless because it does not say what the salt was. Can you determine the concentration? Is there even information to suggest whether or not after dissolving the material Darwin applied the entire dissolved material or not?

No matter what happened back then it hardly matters since that compares the practice then with the practice now. It has no application other than a historical anecdote of limited applicability.

The problem is that the evidence supporting homeopathy is limited to a few early trials. I have only found 1 study. That study did not show a strong result. Can you show us even 1 study supporting homeopathy?
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 06 Mar 2010, 12:30

From the book:

"about the one-twenty-millionth of a grain, is sufficient to cause the tentacle bearing this gland to bend to the centre of the leaf. In this experiment, owing to the presence of the water of crystallisation, less than the one-thirty-millionth of a grain of the efficient elements could have been absorbed."


It's unknown how much is actually absorbed, if any, but the reasoning is that the crystal structure of the ammonium phosphate already had water in it, and so: 1/30,000,000 of a grain is all that's possible to absorb.

And considering that we now know the plant is only reacting to the active ingredient, the nitrogen in the ammonium phosphate salt (H12-N3-O4-P), a fraction of the fraction of a grain of ammonium salt, which itself, is ridiculously diluted in water and applied in tiny droplets.

SOUNDS LIKE HOMEOPATHIC DILUTIONS TO ME!
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 12:31

um ..he was making his case for pharmacogenetics by revealing how ineffective pharmacology is. A gaffe. PGx medicine is in it's infancy. He's since left GKS, ran into some government pressure, and returned to academic R&D.

Wow. you still can understand what the person said. Not surprising. Sigh ...

Pharmacology ineffective? Say that to the millions of people that are alive today because of pharmacology.

What is ineffective is homeopathy. One of the main places in the world using homeopathy is India. A major disease that is finally coming under control in India is leprosy. That control is being manifested because of standard medicines and not the fakery of homeopathy. The only effect on leprosy by homeopathy is continued damage by the disease as the victims take the ineffective so-called treatments doled out by homeopathic practitioners in the country.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 12:35

From the book:

"about the one-twenty-millionth of a grain, is sufficient to cause the tentacle bearing this gland to bend to the centre of the leaf. In this experiment, owing to the presence of the water of crystallisation, less than the one-thirty-millionth of a grain of the efficient elements could have been absorbed."

It's unknown how much is actually absorbed, if any, but the reasoning is that the crystal structure of the ammonium phosphate already had water in it, and so: 1/30,000,000 of a grain is all that's possible to absorb.

And considering that we now know the plant is only reacting to the active ingredient, the nitrogen in the ammonium phosphate salt (H12-N3-O4-P), a fraction of the fraction of a grain of ammonium salt, which itself, is ridiculously diluted in water and applied in tiny droplets.

SOUNDS LIKE HOMEOPATHIC DILUTIONS TO ME!


Why isn't the phosphate an active ingredient.
What c are you claiming?
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 12:36

Can you show us even 1 study supporting homeopathy?
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 13:17

In your post by Kevin Kane on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:48 am you mention some information from Darwin.
In your post by Kevin Kane on Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:12 am you make some calculations.
In your post by Kevin Kane on Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:30 am you relate back to the Darwin material.

Here's the simple problem. A solution is made by taking a material and placing it into a solvent. You make all of these calculations based on what? You select a volume, yet nowhere are you ever given the volume of the solvent used by Darwin. This was amazingly obvious to me, and it should have been to anyone with a basic education that the problem could not be solved. Yet you began to pull numbers out of thin air to produce a numerical solution to an undefined problem. It is conceivable that you forgot to post the rest of the information that Darwin had written, but forgot to do so. Is that it? Please show us where Darwin wrote about the amount of solvent he used.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 06 Mar 2010, 14:14

I've posted the relevant material. We are on the internets. The information is easily searchable. It's available to everyone. And I remember saying I'm not a research assistant. Oh yeah, I'm repeating myself.

It should be easy to apply logic to the situation.

The plant is not merely responding to nitrogen, it's responding to tiny, rapid flucuations in relative nitrogen levels; an insect signature. The plant is carnivorous and is reacting to bug meat.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 06 Mar 2010, 22:10

Kevin, the dilutions you calculated were meaningless since the volume of solvent was never given.

This is your conjecture. I see nothing online to suggest the following claim:
The plant is not merely responding to nitrogen, it's responding to tiny, rapid flucuations[sic] in relative nitrogen levels; an insect signature. The plant is carnivorous and is reacting to bug meat.


What I do see is that N and P are both essential nutrients required by Drosera. I have seen the thigmotropism in action as plants are touched with debris including non-insect debris.

It should also be pointed out to everyone that Darwin did NOT create a homeopathic solution when he did this experiment. A dilute solution is not a homeopathic solution. Anyone advocating homeopathy knows that.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 07 Mar 2010, 01:20

Darwin gave a volume

"The reader will best realise this degree of dilution by remembering that 5,000 ounces would more than fill a thirty-one gallon cask or barrel and that to this large body of water one grain of the salt was added – only half a drachm or thirty minims of the solution poured over the leaf."

Imperial gallons are larger than US gallons.
1/2 drachm = roughly 1/4th teaspoon.

Darwin describes various application methods, from droplets to full leaf immersions.

thigmotropism = touch sensitive movement
chemotropism = chemical sensitive movement

N and P are essential for the plant, and exist in insects and ammonium phosphate.


Skeptics need to forget about their irrational mental programming towards homeopathy.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 03:12

Thanks for finally providing the information. All this demonstrates is that some materials can produce a response even in small quantities. Regardless of that it is evidently clear that this solution is NOT as dilute as homeopathic medicines, not even close. Furthermore, the solution was not produced in manner consistent with homeopathic protocols. Finally, it should be clear that Darwin did not believe in homeopathy.

To connect Darwin to homeopathy is grasping at straws.

Homeopathy supporters need to understand that their beliefs are irrational and have not been proven. That goes for both efficacy and mechanism.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 07 Mar 2010, 05:49

Nostradamus wrote:Regardless of that it is evidently clear that this solution is NOT as dilute as homeopathic medicines, not even close.


As many people are aware .. homeopathic medicines range in dilution strenghts, which can be successively more dilute (as were Darwin's experiments). Common homeopathic medicines available to consumers are often in the 3X - 6X - 12X range of dilutions. IMO this is in the 12X range.

Nostradamus wrote:Furthermore, the solution was not produced in manner consistent with homeopathic protocols.


Maybe, maybe not. It does appear Darwin understood homeopathy as it was at the time. Perhaps this is his version of the techniques of homeopathy. Which explains why he was said he was "frightened", "amazed", "anxious", "incredible", "incredulous" and "quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement.". He knew what he was implying .. and so does anyone with common sense.

Nostradamus wrote:"Homeopathy supporters need to understand that their beliefs are irrational and have not been proven. That goes for both efficacy and mechanism.


Not been proven by who? Every study? Every scientist? Government committees who are lobbied and supported by the drug industry? Your statements are subjective and irrational. The stuff has been around for 200 years and it's not going away. Maybe skeptics need to catch up to reality.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 07:22

Maybe, maybe not. It does appear Darwin understood homeopathy as it was at the time. Perhaps this is his version of the techniques of homeopathy. Which explains why he was said he was "frightened", "amazed", "anxious", "incredible", "incredulous" and "quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement.". He knew what he was implying .. and so does anyone with common sense.


Darwin explicitly stated his disdain for homeopathy. Your speculations are all wrong. He disdained homeopathy.

Not been proven by who? Every study? Every scientist? Government committees who are lobbied and supported by the drug industry? Your statements are subjective and irrational. The stuff has been around for 200 years and it's not going away. Maybe skeptics need to catch up to reality.


I have asked you to post even 1 study supportive of homeopathy. My statement is simply factual. Show me a study.

Just because irrational ideas do not go away is no support. Maybe you need to understand the lack of scientific support.

Show me a study in support of homeopathy.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 07 Mar 2010, 11:52

Nostradamus wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. It does appear Darwin understood homeopathy as it was at the time. Perhaps this is his version of the techniques of homeopathy. Which explains why he was said he was "frightened", "amazed", "anxious", "incredible", "incredulous" and "quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement.". He knew what he was implying .. and so does anyone with common sense.


Darwin explicitly stated his disdain for homeopathy. Your speculations are all wrong. He disdained homeopathy.


No kidding. Which would explain why he was a afraid and unhappy at publishing his results of experiments with obvious homeopathic implications.



Nostradamus wrote:I have asked you to post even 1 study supportive of homeopathy. My statement is simply factual. Show me a study.

Just because irrational ideas do not go away is no support. Maybe you need to understand the lack of scientific support.

Show me a study in support of homeopathy.


The problem is that I'm the one challenging your ignorant or dishonest statement of no positive studies exist. They do exist and no one disputes that .. except you. The governments of the UK and US have these studies on record, on their websites. Easily searchable. They exist. Dude, you made a false claim because you were unaware that it was false .. or too lazy to actually know what you're talking about.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 12:13

No kidding. Which would explain why he was a afraid and unhappy at publishing his results of experiments with obvious homeopathic implications.


The claim that this is related to anything homeopathic is a silly notion that you have made and has nothing to do with homeopathy. He was surprised at the small amount of material that elicited a response. This is actually interesting because he saw a response no one had seen before. The fact that small amounts of certain materials elicit responses is well known. It is also well known that homeopathy does not work.

The problem is that I'm the one challenging your ignorant or dishonest statement of no positive studies exist. They do exist and no one disputes that .. except you. The governments of the UK and US have these studies on record, on their websites. Easily searchable. They exist. Dude, you made a false claim because you were unaware that it was false .. or too lazy to actually know what you're talking about.


In fact this experiment by Darwin is not related to homeopathy in any way. Your attempts to connect this simply illustrate your complete and utter ignorance of what constitutes homeopathy.

So now you claim that there are studies that are searchable. So why don't you show us one study. The reason you don't show us dude is that you know the studies do NOT exist.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

PreviousNext

Return to Holistic Health / Alternative Medicine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests