View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 25 Jan 2010, 22:10

ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:In conclusion:

Homeopathy is a worthwhile alternative medicine. Either as a primary (replacement) choice, secondary (alternative) choice, or as a complimentary treatment. More choices = more chances of success.

Safer, cheaper, just as effective.

Uhhhhhhhhhh, no. That is not what we've learned. What we've learned is that modern medicine works. Homeopathic mediciines do not.

Here is what I get out of all this witty banter:

Before modern medicine all you had was homeopathy. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But it was all they had so they had to deal with it.

Time goes by and advances in homeopathy advance to something called modern medicine. Still an 'iffy' proposition but a definite improvement.

Was this improvement due to better medicine or better diagnosis procedure? Better herbs and spices or better health practices and proper nutrition?

Fast forward to a few decades ago and modern medicine of today makes modern medicine of 50 years ago totally antiquated. Is it the drugs or the diagnosis and specific treatment? Big Pharma wants you to think it's the miracle drugs. Here, take this pill instead of improving your diet! Now take this pill to counter the side effects of that pill.

Centuries ago if you died from some medical problem it was nothing more than survival of the fittest. If you were predisposed to hereditary problems, you didn't make it very long. We are evolving into humans with less desirable DNA that will eventually take its toll.
User avatar
NinjaPuppy
 
Posts: 4002
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 20:44






Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 25 Jan 2010, 22:29

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:In conclusion:

Homeopathy is a worthwhile alternative medicine. Either as a primary (replacement) choice, secondary (alternative) choice, or as a complimentary treatment. More choices = more chances of success.

Safer, cheaper, just as effective.

Uhhhhhhhhhh, no. That is not what we've learned. What we've learned is that modern medicine works. Homeopathic mediciines do not.

Here is what I get out of all this witty banter:

Before modern medicine all you had was homeopathy. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But it was all they had so they had to deal with it.

Time goes by and advances in homeopathy advance to something called modern medicine. Still an 'iffy' proposition but a definite improvement.

Was this improvement due to better medicine or better diagnosis procedure? Better herbs and spices or better health practices and proper nutrition?

Fast forward to a few decades ago and modern medicine of today makes modern medicine of 50 years ago totally antiquated. Is it the drugs or the diagnosis and specific treatment? Big Pharma wants you to think it's the miracle drugs. Here, take this pill instead of improving your diet! Now take this pill to counter the side effects of that pill.

Centuries ago if you died from some medical problem it was nothing more than survival of the fittest. If you were predisposed to hereditary problems, you didn't make it very long. We are evolving into humans with less desirable DNA that will eventually take its toll.

I hate to disagree with you Ninja, but I’m going to on this one. Homeopathy, in its true form, is a diluted mixture of stuff. It only came to prominence in the 19th Century and was always alongside conventional medicine. Historically, through the centuries, medicine was derived from natural remedies such as plants and animal parts to heal. There are modern medicines today that still incorporate these remedies that have been shown to help beyond the placebo effect.
There is a BIG difference between conventional medicine and homeopathy.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 25 Jan 2010, 22:43

ProfWag wrote:There is a BIG difference between conventional medicine and homeopathy.

Yes, you make an excellent point. However, the term 'homeopathy' seems to have changed by definition. Since this topic was started as I Google around I am seeing OTC products such as Zicam listed as homeopathic. It's as if anything deemed 'natural' is being put into a homeopathic class.
User avatar
NinjaPuppy
 
Posts: 4002
Joined: 28 Jul 2009, 20:44

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 25 Jan 2010, 22:59

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:There is a BIG difference between conventional medicine and homeopathy.

Yes, you make an excellent point. However, the term 'homeopathy' seems to have changed by definition. Since this topic was started as I Google around I am seeing OTC products such as Zicam listed as homeopathic. It's as if anything deemed 'natural' is being put into a homeopathic class.

And they would be wrong. There are many different forms of alternative medicine. Homeopathy, naturopathy, herbalism, to name a few. Additionally, alternative medicine also includes chiropracty and accupuncture are also included in that definition. We can discuss othere alternative medicines, if desired, but this thread is about homeopaths for which I don't believe has any healing properties above the placebo effect and I haven't seen any evidence presented in this thread that disputes my belief. Sure, some people believe it works and if they believe it, then they can be healed. When I have a headache, I drink a beer and my headache will soon go away. Does that mean that if I were a doctor and a patient came in complaining of migraines that I would prescribe a six-pack? Uhhhhh, no.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 26 Jan 2010, 02:20



here is a brief explanation of what is homeopathy

how conforting that your dr. tells you
¨we dont know how it works.. nobody know how it works... seems implausible¨
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 13 Feb 2010, 19:36

Didn't watch the Dawkins video since skeptics aren't credible.

Just a minor update. Was developing a cold from all this snowy weather. Took some Cell Salts and the cold disappeared by morning.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 15 Feb 2010, 05:59

Kevin Kane wrote:Didn't watch the Dawkins video since skeptics aren't credible.

but magicians bending spoons are...
:lol:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 27 Feb 2010, 06:30

Gee .. I don't know anyone who has ever tried homeopathic treatments. Don't know any homeopathic practioneers, clinics, storefronts. I'm sure they exist in a big city like NYC, but I've never seen one. I've never seen a news story where homeopathy was an issue, a headline, byline, punchline. And I've been reading newspapers for a long time. I've never heard of a legal case involving homeopathy. Never heard of anyone complaining about homeopathic fraud or abuse. Never heard of anyone disatisfied or felt scammed by it. Never heard of anyone who died or got sick because of homeopathy. Am I missing something?


Read the opening post and it makes me wonder how anyone has not met someone who has not tried homeopathy. I asked my friends a while back and was surprised how many had tried it. I never go into so-called health stores and know that you can get some homeopathic whatevers there. I've seen lots of news stories about homeopathic meds. Gotta go write later
Last edited by Nostradamus on 27 Feb 2010, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby tiger » 27 Feb 2010, 09:03

Nostradamus wrote:Gee .. I don't know anyone who has ever tried homeopathic treatments. Don't know any homeopathic practioneers, clinics, storefronts. I'm sure they exist in a big city like NYC, but I've never seen one. I've never seen a news story where homeopathy was an issue, a headline, byline, punchline. And I've been reading newspapers for a long time. I've never heard of a legal case involving homeopathy. Never heard of anyone complaining about homeopathic fraud or abuse. Never heard of anyone disatisfied or felt scammed by it. Never heard of anyone who died or got sick because of homeopathy. Am I missing something?

Read the opening post and it makes me wonder how anyone has not met someone who has not tried homeopathy. I asked my friends a while back and was surprised how many had tried it. I never go into so-called health stores and know that you can get some homeopathic whatevers there. I've seen lots of news stories about homeopathic meds. Gotta go write later


The British parliamant has just released a report on homeopathy called
"Evidence Check 2: Homeopathy Fourth Report of Session 2009–10"
Link to pdf version http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /45/45.pdf. It is a very good report.

A thread on the subject http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=157087
tiger
 
Posts: 51
Joined: 07 Jun 2009, 13:55

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 27 Feb 2010, 11:08

My post was all garbled since the first part was supposed to be quoted. I quoted a part of the initial post.

Thanks tiger for pointing out the obvious with the recent discussion in the UK about homeopathy.

There are lots of people that are dissatisfied with all sorts of things and homeopathy is just one of them. People that don't know that are not looking around. Deaths due to homeopathy get passed off as neglect or untreated. A self treated condition is also an untreated condition.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 03 Mar 2010, 15:48

A good expose on the Science and Technology Committee - UK Parliament.

http://vonsyhomeopathy.wordpress.com/20 ... these-mps/


Nostradamus wrote:My post was all garbled since the first part was supposed to be quoted. I quoted a part of the initial post.


The edit button allows people to edit their posts for clarity and fixing mistakes. Just use the "quote" tag, which is similar to the "sarcasm" tag:

[sarcasm]

... haha ..

[/sarcasm]



Nostradamus wrote:There are lots of people that are dissatisfied with all sorts of things and homeopathy is just one of them. People that don't know that are not looking around.


Many british people are satisfied and demanding homeopathy.

Patient Demand for Homeopathy ... from the political meeting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8527822.stm


And despite the recent political report on homeopathy, the NHS will almost certainly continue funding homeopathy.

'Our view is that the local NHS and clinicians, rather than Whitehall, are best placed to make decisions on what treatment is appropriate for their patients - this includes complementary or alternative treatments such as homeopathy.' - NHS

Indeed.

-----------

Nostradamus wrote:Deaths due to homeopathy get passed off as neglect or untreated. A self treated condition is also an untreated condition.


What skeptics are calling for is even more dangerous than any alternative medicine. Skeptics support taking away patient choices and banning safe medicines. Skeptics support forcing patients to take government approved medicines against the will of the patients.


What the government's role should be, is not to determine whether a treatment works or not (a doctor/patient decision), but: IS IT SAFE?

-----------

Skeptics prove it's safe


Video: a group of british "skeptics" try to overdose on homeopathic medicine. The skeptics fail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/video ... y-medicine


Next time, try rat poison. I hear it's stronger.

[/sarcasm]



Charles Darwin dramatically proves the effects of very dilute solutions:

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/7/1/33

““The 1/4,000,000th of a grain absorbed by a gland clearly makes the tentacle which bears the gland becomes inflected; and I am fully convinced that the 1/20,000,000th of a grain of the crystallised salt does the same. Now I am quite unhappy at the thought of having to publish such a statement. The reader will best realise this degree of dilution by remembering that 5,000 ounces would more than fill a thirty-one gallon cask or barrel and that to this large body of water one grain of the salt was added – only half a drachm or thirty minims of the solution poured over the leaf. Yet this amount sufficed to cause the inflection of the leaf. My results were for a long time incredible, even to myself and I anxiously sought for every source of error. The observations were repeated during several years. Two of my sons, who were as incredulous as myself, compared several lots of leaves simultaneously immersed in the weaker solutions and in water and declared that there could be no doubt as to the differences in their appearance. In fact, every time that we perceive an odour, we have evidence that infinitely smaller particles act on our nerves. Moreover, this extreme sensitiveness, exceeding that of the most delicate part of the human body, as well as the power of committing various impulses from one part of the leaf to another, have been acquired without the intervention of any nervous system.”
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 03 Mar 2010, 22:13

Wow sarcasm
Video: a group of british "skeptics" try to overdose on homeopathic medicine. The skeptics fail.


Did you hear about the homeopathic patient that died of an overdose?
He forgot to take his medicine.

The problem I see with homeopathy is that I can find only 1 proper studies that show its efficacy. So if its not efficacious why should it be funded? I know there must be more out there since 95% confidence interval used for publication suggests that there should be more. I just can't find studies.
Last edited by Nostradamus on 03 Mar 2010, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
User avatar
Nostradamus
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 14:08

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 03 Mar 2010, 22:14

Nostradamus wrote:
Did you hear about the homeopathic patient that die of an overdose?
He forgot to take his medicine.


Good one!
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 04 Mar 2010, 17:37

Nostradamus wrote: So if its not efficacious why should it be funded? I know there must be more out there since 95% confidence interval used for publication suggests that there should be more. I just can't find studies.


The NHS funding of homeopathy is tiny compared to the £11 Billion it spends on pharmaceuticals. The question is raised, why should pharmacueticals be funded when they are mostly placebo?

Here's an admission from the exectutive VP of GlaxoSmithKline:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 75942.html

"The vast majority of drugs, more than 90%; only work in 30 to 50% of the people." Dr. Allen Roses, an academic geneticist from Duke University spoke at a scientific meeting in London:

"Drugs for Alzheimer's disease work in fewer than one in three patients, whereas those for cancer are only effective in a quarter of patients. Drugs for migraines, for osteoporosis, and arthritis work in about half the patients. Most drugs work in fewer than one in two patients mainly because the recipients carry genes that interfere in some way with the medicine."

Much of the actual effect of these drugs .. when they work .. is due to the placebo effect. As much as 90% placebo. And antidepressents? Forget about it.

Newsweek, Jan 2010 ... Interesting new book by Dr Irving Kirsch:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

"As more and more scientists who study depression and the drugs that treat it are concluding, that suggests that antidepressants are basically expensive Tic Tacs."

"The belief that antidepressants can cure depression chemically is simply wrong,"

"Consider how research on drugs works. Patient volunteers are told they will receive either the drug or a placebo, and that neither they nor the scientists will know who is getting what. Most volunteers hope they get the drug, not the dummy pill. After taking the unknown meds for a while, some volunteers experience side effects. Bingo: a clue they're on the real drug. About 80 percent guess right, and studies show that the worse side effects a patient experiences, the more effective the drug. Patients apparently think, this drug is so strong it's making me vomit and hate sex, so it must be strong enough to lift my depression. In clinical-trial patients who figure out they're receiving the drug and not the inert pill, expectations soar. The patients who correctly guess that they're getting the real drug therefore experience a stronger placebo effect than those who get the dummy pill, experience no side effects, and are therefore disappointed."

"Most people don't need an active drug. For a lot of folks, you're going to do as well on a sugar pill or on conversations with your physicians as you will on medication. It doesn't matter what you do; it's just the fact that you're doing something."

"When researchers gave nonresponders a higher dose, 72 percent got much better, their symptoms dropping by 50 percent or more. The catch? Only half the patients really got a higher dose. The rest, unknowingly, got the original, "ineffective" dose."

"The widely held belief that the placebo response in depression is short-lived appears to be based largely on intuition and perhaps wishful thinking,"

"It's all well and good to point out that psychotherapy is more effective than either pills or placebos, with dramatically lower relapse rates."
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 04 Mar 2010, 18:46

The fact is that homeopathy works very well for some people. Whether it's due to the placebo effect, or whether it's due to cellular communication or other mechanism, it works for some people and should be made available to those who want it and for who it works on.

I've only been studying homeopathy for a few weeks, and it makes sense to me. It's actually a smart system. And skeptics hate it .. which is a big plus. Anything that makes me less like a skeptic, must be good.

The placebo effect is active in every type of medicine. What we are seeing as we study the placebo effect, is layer upon layer of psychology.

If a credible, professional expert says something .. we are more likely to believe it.
If the expert is attractive or appealing .. we believe it more.
If we buy something expensive .. we tend to believe it's better.
If we take an inert drug, it works much better than not taking any.
If it looks pretty, tastes sweet, or smells strange .. we tell ourselves: it's probably powerful.
If it makes us sleepy or high .. it must be working.
If it makes us nauseous or tingley .. it must be a strong drug.
If we take more of the drug .. it must work stronger.
If we take more than one drug .. it must be more effective.
If we believe the drug doesn't work .. it doesn't, or is much less effective.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

PreviousNext

Return to Holistic Health / Alternative Medicine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest