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The Psychology of the Skeptic

Discuss PseudoSkeptics and their Fallacies. Share strategies for debating them.

Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Oct 2011, 20:58

Con artists pretend to be all sorts of things that they're not. If they pretended to be chemists would you then conclude that all chemists were frauds?


This is something skeptics tend to ignore, Craig.

I've pointed out countless times how the biggest con's tend to have Ivy League pedigrees both, at familial and scholastic levels. Just look at the whole Banking B.S. we're still paying for or the S&L game played in the 80s (that yet, another Bush was involved in, imagine that :shock: ) Then we have all the accountants made doctors that now rule roost over the medical professions thanks to crooked lawyers, politicians and the Pharma culture. . . this is a very long list of industries in which stealing from the public, usury, and grotesque misrepresentation should be a far bigger issue than the granny woman down the street that peddles little other than hope and reassurance. . . so what if she's delusional, that it harm none do as thou wilts.

I've even tried to help skeptics to contemplate if or not they aren't the ones being conned; what better way to set a scam than to give people an idea that is proven to appeal to their ego and bias? I think history proves that it's a process that works most efficiently and yet, few recognize it when it's right in front of them.

Attacking Readers and Psychics in general is akin to cops writing parking tickets; it's a safe and easy thing to do that the minority group being harassed are basically impotent over given how few really care. . . but just like the big drug crime element that's dangerous and too well organized to do anything effective towards, that would be just and moral, skeptics refuse to go after big business using the same rules of ethics/morality and pseudo-integrity by which to measure it. . . and like all radicals, they can justify their exceptions in ways that SOUND intelligent and logical.

It's a very irritating part of the truth when it comes to that world. :x
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby craig weiler » 04 Oct 2011, 22:05

No, Mr. Weiler, I haven't tossed anything out the window and I won't comment on the maturity of your post other than to say my point was not understood by you.


Profwag,

I know that you are an intelligent person, but you have not acquitted yourself well in this situation and you have demonstrated an embarrassing lack of the rational thinking that you pride yourself on. The kind of logic you are using here is more suited to right wing Teabagger hysteria.

Pointing to a few con artists as proof that psychics are not to be trusted is absurd beyond belief.

I can point to several con jobs by skeptics that deliberately misinterpret parapsychological studies. Are all skeptics not to be trusted?
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby craig weiler » 04 Oct 2011, 22:06

Craig,

Yeah, no kidding.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby ProfWag » 05 Oct 2011, 08:00

craig weiler wrote:
No, Mr. Weiler, I haven't tossed anything out the window and I won't comment on the maturity of your post other than to say my point was not understood by you.


Profwag,

I know that you are an intelligent person, but you have not acquitted yourself well in this situation and you have demonstrated an embarrassing lack of the rational thinking that you pride yourself on. The kind of logic you are using here is more suited to right wing Teabagger hysteria.

Pointing to a few con artists as proof that psychics are not to be trusted is absurd beyond belief.

I can point to several con jobs by skeptics that deliberately misinterpret parapsychological studies. Are all skeptics not to be trusted?

You are correct that I haven't devoted a lot of time to this subject. Unfortunately, my full-time job, wife, domestic responsibilities, exercise/sports interests, and other time consuming activities don't allow me a lot of free time to research my statements that I know, but don't feel right posting without having the proper references it requires. I am well aware of the psychic community and the hurt they have caused many people. It's unfortunate that those stories don't get reported as technically, they are not fraudulent. As I stated, feel free to review the thread from a while back about my 100% accurate horoscope which shows my personal experience about a typical paranormal reading that really wasn't.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby craig weiler » 05 Oct 2011, 08:35

ProfWag,
There is no need for you to research your statements more fully because I'm sure you could find more frauds, so I'll just take your word for it.

I am well aware of the psychic community and the hurt they have caused many people.


Gotta . . . . catch . . . my . . . breath . . . from . . . laughing . . . so . . . hard. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I. AM. THE. . . . . PSYCHIC!!!!! BWAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN AND YOUR WOMEN OR I WILL EAT THEM!!!!!! I WILL MELT YOUR SKIN AND EAT YOUR BRAINS. I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE . . .NO ONE CAN HIDE FROM ME!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

NO ONE IS SAFE FROM THE . . . . . . . . . . . . PSYCHIC!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby ProfWag » 05 Oct 2011, 18:24

craig weiler wrote:ProfWag,
There is no need for you to research your statements more fully because I'm sure you could find more frauds, so I'll just take your word for it.

I am well aware of the psychic community and the hurt they have caused many people.


Gotta . . . . catch . . . my . . . breath . . . from . . . laughing . . . so . . . hard. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I. AM. THE. . . . . PSYCHIC!!!!! BWAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN AND YOUR WOMEN OR I WILL EAT THEM!!!!!! I WILL MELT YOUR SKIN AND EAT YOUR BRAINS. I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE . . .NO ONE CAN HIDE FROM ME!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

NO ONE IS SAFE FROM THE . . . . . . . . . . . . PSYCHIC!!!!!!!!!!!

You're really not helping yourself with this post Craig...
Are you saying that even "honest" psychics have never cost people thousands of dollars, broken relationships, or major life-changing decisions gone wrong? I can assure you that it happens every day. Based on what I know of you through your posts, I'm sure you look the other direction when this happens, but I hate to inform you that it's a reality. Many people take what you psychics say as gold, but my stance is that there is nothing paranormal in your advice to people and that is quite dangerous.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby craig weiler » 05 Oct 2011, 20:47

Based on what I know of you through your posts, I'm sure you look the other direction when this happens, but I hate to inform you that it's a reality. Many people take what you psychics say as gold, but my stance is that there is nothing paranormal in your advice to people and that is quite dangerous.


AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :o :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :o :o :o
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Arouet » 05 Oct 2011, 23:02

As Craig B has said, a lot of what psychics do is similar to counselling and includes advice. However, unless they are also trained as a psychologist or even as a social worker, they do not have real training in how to work with people. There is no oversight community, no standards counsel, likely no malpractice insurance, no licensing. I haven't heard of any studies done by psychics to measure the effectiveness of their counselling in a reliable manner.

While it would perhaps be unfair to say that all psychics who provide counselling cause harm, the lack of the above is cause for concern.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby craig weiler » 05 Oct 2011, 23:38

While it would perhaps be unfair to say that all psychics who provide counselling cause harm, the lack of the above is cause for concern.


I would add this. Aside from a very, very small percentage of people who are clearly lacking mentally, customers of psychics know what they're getting, understand the risks and conclude that it is worth their money. They have their own reasons for avoiding health professionals, one of which may be a perceived lack of compassion and overly clinical view of the client. People want to be seen and acknowledged as human beings. It's often more valuable to them than the reading.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby ProfWag » 06 Oct 2011, 00:03

I would enjoy hearing what advice or information both of the Craig's gave during one of their more recent readings.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Arouet » 06 Oct 2011, 00:23

craig weiler wrote:I would add this. Aside from a very, very small percentage of people who are clearly lacking mentally, customers of psychics know what they're getting, understand the risks and conclude that it is worth their money.


If they are going for entertainment then certainly, I'd say you a right. But if they are going to a psychic as a replacement for counselling or therapy then they can't possibly. They don't have the expertise to properly foresee the complications that can arise out of poor counselling. They don't have the knowledge and experience required to make a proper assessment. They don't know the history. Nor would they be expected to- that's why we have oversight boards. This is why licnesing boards were developed in the first place. People going for counselling are by definition vulnerable. A counsellor is a person in a position of trust and can have great influence on their patient. They go for training for many years, learning the best known techniques in order to maximize the benefit and minimize harm.

They have their own reasons for avoiding health professionals, one of which may be a perceived lack of compassion and overly clinical view of the client. People want to be seen and acknowledged as human beings. It's often more valuable to them than the reading.


Sure, but that doesn't have any bearing on the issues I've just raised.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby ProfWag » 06 Oct 2011, 00:26

craig weiler wrote:They have their own reasons for avoiding health professionals, one of which may be a perceived lack of compassion and overly clinical view of the client.

Not the least of which is that it's much easier to afford a $30 reading from a psychic than a $150 session with a licensed counselor...
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Craig Browning » 06 Oct 2011, 00:59

ProfWag wrote:
craig weiler wrote:They have their own reasons for avoiding health professionals, one of which may be a perceived lack of compassion and overly clinical view of the client.

Not the least of which is that it's much easier to afford a $30 reading from a psychic than a $150 session with a licensed counselor...


Exsqueeze me?

I get $125.00 an hour for sessions or $45.00 for 20-minutes. I think you'll find that's closer to standard fare these days, with exception to the newbies and desperate. . . then again, the economy is getting so bad I may have to cut my fees (again). Of course, I only charge top dollar when I know it's someone that's just curious or wanting some amusement. Rarely, when there is a real issue happening, do I ever charge anything close to outrageous (typically barter) for people in actual need.

As to all those nasty things listed above that psychics are "known for" you can't point to a single industry that the same kinds of things can't be said about, especially when it comes to the world of finance and big $$$ -- same horse, different color. Just look at how medical coverage on insurance or even Natural Disaster Insurance claims get manipulated -- State Farm, shortly after Katrina, refused to take on any clients from the Gulf or coastal regions when it came to property & home insurance and they weren't alone. I believe the feds had to step in on that little game. When the voters in the state of California voted against auto insurance companies back in the 80's the industry went to the Supreme Court to force an over-turning of the vote. . . how many people with chronic health conditions get dropped and are sacked with hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs? How many aren't give care under the myth of "previously existing condition"?

Here's one of my favorite on the environmental front "Clean Coal" as a fuel source. That's a bold faced LIE but because a lawyer and some PR pros massaged wording on things it's "legal" . . . not ethical or moral, but "legal".

I also find it curious, the fact that my examples of the most common "counselors" in life gets ignored and the fact that the one's that have all the papers get bumped to the top of the list as being "right" . . . while ignoring the hundreds of thousands they bilk people out of annually, how they legally get people hooked on medications without effective checks & balances . . . how many children they get "programmed" into the cycle of being drug dependent (so adults don't have to be responsible adults and teach the child actual discipline and integrity). . . or, as we had in the 90's, that rash of court cases in which therapists planted the thought into the minds of children that a parent, neighbor or teacher molested them. . . how many lives did that screw up?

Then we have the psychological damage created by the hate-filled "skeptics" that love to rip people apart because of their belief in anything outside of hard "right-wing bending" analysis -- an extreme sense of atheism in which Mathematics and Physics are the new Gospel and all is is heretical, evil, hokum. (sound familiar? If not, study the history of the church and the Inquisitions)

I know numerous good therapists with degrees, etc. and nearly every one of them tell me that they sat the book learning on a shelf years ago because it clouds things. Rather, they allow their heart and personal connection (empathy) with the client to guide them and as an end result, they end up with healthier patrons in shorter periods of time without any form of narcotic requisite. But I also know similarly pedigreed individuals who have no sense of emotional connection with anyone or anything, it's all cold, hard science which DOES NOT WORK in every situation and frequently backfires, bringing about law suits, wrongful death scenarios, etc.

While you will find a handful of con artists in the Psychic Biz alongside the more delusional, it does not mean they are "all" out to take advantage of folks. As I've pointed out far more times than I can count, the charlatans are the minority in this world just as they are in all the other fields out there that reach the consumer. The other end of that spectrum rests the other minority, those that are genuinely gifted in the intuitive arts and esoteric sciences; areas that exceptionally few skeptics have the BALLS to even give 5-minutes time to without scoffing and running away from it. . . I think that's been proven here given how many times I and others have invited the naysayers to set their chip off their shoulder for a year and actually study the material with a genuine desire to learn, not dissect and rip apart.

There's more but I'll put that on hold ;)
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Arouet » 06 Oct 2011, 01:20

Craig Browning wrote:As to all those nasty things listed above that psychics are "known for" you can't point to a single industry that the same kinds of things can't be said about, especially when it comes to the world of finance and big $$$ -- same horse, different color.


You should compare it to its closest counterpart: psychology and social work.

I also find it curious, the fact that my examples of the most common "counselors" in life gets ignored and the fact that the one's that have all the papers get bumped to the top of the list as being "right" . . . while ignoring the hundreds of thousands they bilk people out of annually, how they legally get people hooked on medications without effective checks & balances . . . how many children they get "programmed" into the cycle of being drug dependent (so adults don't have to be responsible adults and teach the child actual discipline and integrity). . . or, as we had in the 90's, that rash of court cases in which therapists planted the thought into the minds of children that a parent, neighbor or teacher molested them. . . how many lives did that screw up?


You're talking about psychiatry. As you intimate, most psychiatrists don't do counselling, they prescribe medications. The psychologist is the one who does talk therapy. Most psychologists can't prescribe medication.

I know numerous good therapists with degrees, etc. and nearly every one of them tell me that they sat the book learning on a shelf years ago because it clouds things. Rather, they allow their heart and personal connection (empathy) with the client to guide them and as an end result, they end up with healthier patrons in shorter periods of time without any form of narcotic requisite. But I also know similarly pedigreed individuals who have no sense of emotional connection with anyone or anything, it's all cold, hard science which DOES NOT WORK in every situation and frequently backfires, bringing about law suits, wrongful death scenarios, etc.


Again: you're missing that the psychological community is regulated, and there is oversight. there is a board you can complain to. You can sue for malpractice. They don't have a sign up that says "for entertainment only". They have malpractice insurance. These protections are in place for a reason. They should be there for people who are getting counselling.

it does not mean they are "all" out to take advantage of folks.


Those regulations that I've talked about are not there simply to ensure that no one is taken advantage of. It goes beyond that.

As I've pointed out far more times than I can count, the charlatans are the minority in this world just as they are in all the other fields out there that reach the consumer. The other end of that spectrum rests the other minority, those that are genuinely gifted in the intuitive arts and esoteric sciences; areas that exceptionally few skeptics have the BALLS to even give 5-minutes time to without scoffing and running away from it. . . I think that's been proven here given how many times I and others have invited the naysayers to set their chip off their shoulder for a year and actually study the material with a genuine desire to learn, not dissect and rip apart.


With no oversight or protections in place for the patient.
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Re: The Psychology of the Skeptic

Postby Craig Browning » 06 Oct 2011, 01:56

And again, you are missing what I'm saying and trying to dodge & parry. I was speaking of BOTH Psychiatry & Psychological practice in general -- counseling as a whole or the Emotional/Mental Health industry.

Now kindly glue the hairs you just split back together. . . (or was that a hare? If the latter, I have a grew stew recipe you may wish to try)
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