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Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 25 Nov 2009, 22:52

ProfWag wrote:Uhhhh, how do you know I haven't experienced something paranormal? I most certainly have! The difference between you and me is that I believe that there was a rational explanation for it.


I hear this sometimes from skeptics. "I was able to remain rational in the face of the paranormal, so why can't you?"

If you had an experience that was minor enough to allow you the luxury of choosing a so-called 'rational' explanation over a so-called 'irrational' one, then yes that is one of many differences between us. You have the luxury of believing what you want to believe...I don't.

I don't know you, but it appears that you take it at face value and don't look for a rational explanation.


You're right, you don't know me. I am an artist, scholar, lover, and philosopher. I've seen things most people will never see, I've experienced things most people will never experience. My life would make a good movie. I have overcome the need for God, as most people understand God in exoteric terms. I am of all religions and none in my own unique way...I grok the underlying hidden unity behind them all and so I understand the center, I've seen the center and unified with it.

You're also wrong in that I do believe there is a great than zero chance that you experienced psi.


That's a start.

What you don't seem to realize, however, is that IF you have proof of parapsychology, then that word would no longer begin with "para." THAT's how I know you don't "know" it's real, but you only "believe" it's real.


"Proof" is an elusive concept. There is plenty of evidence that an anomaly dubbed psi exists, but there is no widely accepted mathematical framework for psi, no widely accepted theory. There may NEVER be. It may be forever elusive, in terms of "proof" and "theory". Science does have limits, after all. I'm not holding my breath, waiting for science as we know it today to catch up with psi.

That's not to say that science can't grudgingly accept it someday, when the old guard dies away and paradigms shift and rules change. Even without "proof" and "theory" and "framework" science can help mankind to reach its psychic potential. Right now, science is holding mankind back.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 25 Nov 2009, 23:49

"Proof" is an elusive concept. There is plenty of evidence that an anomaly dubbed psi exists, but there is no widely accepted mathematical framework for psi, no widely accepted theory. There may NEVER be. It may be forever elusive, in terms of "proof" and "theory". Science does have limits, after all. I'm not holding my breath, waiting for science as we know it today to catch up with psi.

That's not to say that science can't grudgingly accept it someday, when the old guard dies away and paradigms shift and rules change. Even without "proof" and "theory" and "framework" science can help mankind to reach its psychic potential. Right now, science is holding mankind back.


If there was plenty of evidence for psi existing, then why isn't it accepted? The answer is simply. The acceptance being discussed here is scientific evidence. What is being called psi evidence is in fact anecdotal evidence. The evidence does not pass the muster of scientific evidence because it can't be repeated.

The lack of a mathematical framework is a straw man argument. Before you get to the mathematical framework you need to verify the existence of whatever it is. The math is used as a descriptive tool. I know I have done math for scientific projects. I'm a mathematician. The math comes after their is studied phenomena.

To catch up with psi? It is psi research that needs to catch up with science if it wants to be accepted.

Science is holding mankind back? No. Tell that to people that live longer and better lives. Tell that to people that can be cured of disease, and talk to their friends in far away places, and live in greater comfort, and less fear of tragedy.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 25 Nov 2009, 23:57

This notion of math is interesting in that people are often fooled by coincidence. The other day I was at the dentist and reading a magazine article about bread. Right then the office calls out for a Mr Baker. Can you believe it? Amazing? No. Coincidences like that happen all of the time. Some are minor and unimportant and others catch your attention.

What are the chances that these are all coincidences? That's hard to say. People are so good at seeing patterns where they exist and where they do not. A match for one person is a miss for another. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that hundreds of these coincidences happen to me every day. I just don't pay attention to them.

To read some coincidence issues take a look at:
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/lincoln-kennedy.asp

Here you can see some interesting things that seem to match up. Coincidences? The true ones are.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 01:17

Student of Sophia wrote:If you had an experience that was minor enough to allow you the luxury of choosing a so-called 'rational' explanation over a so-called 'irrational' one, then yes that is one of many differences between us. You have the luxury of believing what you want to believe...I don't.

What makes you think that my experiences have been "minor?" Are you assuming that if one has a "major" experience then they now "know" parapsychology is "real?"
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 01:28

Student of Sophia wrote:You're right, you don't know me. I am an artist, scholar, lover, and philosopher. I've seen things most people will never see, I've experienced things most people will never experience. My life would make a good movie. I have overcome the need for God, as most people understand God in exoteric terms. I am of all religions and none in my own unique way...I grok the underlying hidden unity behind them all and so I understand the center, I've seen the center and unified with it.

That's quite a repertoire! What kind of art do you do? What type of scholarly research are you involved with? Don't give a damn about your love life. What do you philosophize?
So, what kind of things have you seen and experienced that I haven't? Have you witnessed death in a war zone? Have you experinced Scotch in Scotland? Have you seen an opera in the Verona Arena? Have you gone nude sunbathing in Slovenia? Have you been to Oktoberfest in Munich? Have you witnessed a UFO in Sedona? Have you ever experienced a hooka in Turkey? Have you ever seen a bullfight in Portugal? Have you ever dug for fossils in Wyoming? Have you ever seen a Hooter's waitress in Croatia? Have you ever seen a gazelle in Africa? I mean, c'mon Student, what the hell kind of statement is that you made? If you 've seen or experienced something, then share it. Otherwise, your statement is as good as fiction.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 03:36

ProfWag wrote:
Student of Sophia wrote:You're right, you don't know me. I am an artist, scholar, lover, and philosopher. I've seen things most people will never see, I've experienced things most people will never experience. My life would make a good movie. I have overcome the need for God, as most people understand God in exoteric terms. I am of all religions and none in my own unique way...I grok the underlying hidden unity behind them all and so I understand the center, I've seen the center and unified with it.

That's quite a repertoire! What kind of art do you do? What type of scholarly research are you involved with? Don't give a damn about your love life. What do you philosophize?
So, what kind of things have you seen and experienced that I haven't? Have you witnessed death in a war zone? Have you experinced Scotch in Scotland? Have you seen an opera in the Verona Arena? Have you gone nude sunbathing in Slovenia? Have you been to Oktoberfest in Munich? Have you witnessed a UFO in Sedona? Have you ever experienced a hooka in Turkey? Have you ever seen a bullfight in Portugal? Have you ever dug for fossils in Wyoming? Have you ever seen a Hooter's waitress in Croatia? Have you ever seen a gazelle in Africa? I mean, c'mon Student, what the hell kind of statement is that you made? If you 've seen or experienced something, then share it. Otherwise, your statement is as good as fiction.


thats quite a bucketlist wag.. let me try mine... have you ever experienced an italian girl in guatemala? have you got a scar from almost falling to death in machupichu? have you eated magic mushrooms and got into van gogh museaum in amsterdam? have you ever sleep in an atm while backpacking? have you gone nude sunbathing in cuba and then regreat it because is full of 60year old european nudists? (gravity sucks!)
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 03:39

Nostradamus wrote:I'll post an amazing event that was not a UFO.

I've seen amazing things in the sky. Here is what happened. I was camped on an isolated part of the beach off Galveston, Texas. For those in the US it was Padre Island. Instead of crowding into the state park facilities I was several miles to the west on a dark beach. Gathered up some firewood and began to cook shrimp I had purchased from a local fisherman. A few minutes into the cooking the dark beach became very bright. It was a clear night and the stars were beautiful. Out of nowhere a bright light came out of the sky. It lit up the beach sand. I looked up into the sky and it was there and then gone.

UFO? Not at all. It was the brightest fireball I have ever seen. Spectacular! I've seen many bright meteors, but this was the best. Imagine a meteor that was more than a streak in the sky, but bright enough to cast shadows.


Padre Island?
Isla del padre for me hahaha
i go there for time to time
i am from monterrey, we are the ones invading your beaches in springbreak
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 04:38

ciscop wrote:
thats quite a bucketlist wag.. let me try mine... have you ever experienced an italian girl in guatemala? have you got a scar from almost falling to death in machupichu? have you eated magic mushrooms and got into van gogh museaum in amsterdam? have you ever sleep in an atm while backpacking? have you gone nude sunbathing in cuba and then regreat it because is full of 60year old european nudists? (gravity sucks!)

Well, we have a little in common. I've experienced an Italian girl in Italy, fell off a rock inTulum, and have been to the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam, but never been to Cuba (though I know what you mean about European nudists--ref Slovenia, Italy, Croatia, and those Germans!)
I had forgotten about experiencing lunch with Prince Charles, seeing Princess Diana's crotch while having a drink with Elton John (sorry, long story), and experiencing Jim Morrison's grave in Paris.
:-)
You know, thanks to SoS's psychic sights and experiences, this could turn into quite an interesting thread if one NinjaPuppy wants to split it...but then again... ;-)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 26 Nov 2009, 05:01

ProfWag wrote:You know, thanks to SoS's psychic sights and experiences, this could turn into quite an interesting thread if one NinjaPuppy wants to split it...but then again... ;-)

Split it? You mean like start a new topic specifically for those memories? Shall I title the topic, "I need brain bleach to remove these images out of my mind"? :lol:

Actually, it's a pretty good idea to start a thread about individual experiences but can we try to keep it to a somewhat paranormal nature and not about the body parts of old people fighting the law of gravity?
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 05:38

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:You know, thanks to SoS's psychic sights and experiences, this could turn into quite an interesting thread if one NinjaPuppy wants to split it...but then again... ;-)

Split it? You mean like start a new topic specifically for those memories? Shall I title the topic, "I need brain bleach to remove these images out of my mind"? :lol:

Actually, it's a pretty good idea to start a thread about individual experiences but can we try to keep it to a somewhat paranormal nature and not about the body parts of old people fighting the law of gravity?

I can assure you that some of the sights I've seen on those Agean Sea coastlines are more paranormal than anything that's ever been discussed here!
But in all honesty, if you split it, perhaps split it to the off-topic board. I'd rather have some fun than argue with someone over whether or not something was paranormal. I don't know about you all, but I'm taking a skeptical break from the thread for a couple days.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ciscop » 26 Nov 2009, 05:57

seeing Princess Diana's crotch while having a drink with Elton John

i dont think anybody has managed to connect all this words to put this phrase together until now...

i went to Morrison´s grave in paris with a discman and a bottle of tequila to have a shot with the lizard king.. but his tumb was full of tourists and i didnt wanted to offend them, so i ended up having my shot with oscar wilde.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 26 Nov 2009, 06:29

ciscop wrote:
seeing Princess Diana's crotch while having a drink with Elton John

i dont think anybody has managed to connect all this words to put this phrase together until now...

i went to Morrison´s grave in paris with a discman and a bottle of tequila to have a shot with the lizard king.. but his tumb was full of tourists and i didnt wanted to offend them, so i ended up having my shot with oscar wilde.

And yes, I was wondering if anyone would catch that. True story though.

Be truthful Ciscop, isn't that cemetary the coolest in the world? (I can tell you were there with the Oscar comment). I really don't think they would have minded you having a shot with them. Hell, I could have been one of them standing there and I would have shot with you...
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 26 Nov 2009, 08:10

ProfWag wrote:
Student of Sophia wrote:If you had an experience that was minor enough to allow you the luxury of choosing a so-called 'rational' explanation over a so-called 'irrational' one, then yes that is one of many differences between us. You have the luxury of believing what you want to believe...I don't.

What makes you think that my experiences have been "minor?" Are you assuming that if one has a "major" experience then they now "know" parapsychology is "real?"


If it was a 'major' experience(s) and you were somehow able to 'rationalize' it away through fancy mental gymnastics, then your rationalism may be pathological? Have you considered that? Maybe you have an overwhelming need to control, a need for certainty? A fear of ambiguity? Fear of stigma? Maybe your pathological rationalism is a psychological defense mechanism? Maybe you are in denial?

"To a certain intellectual mediocrity, characterized by enlightened rationalism, a scientific theory that simplifies matters is a very good means of defense, because of the tremendous faith of modern man in anything which bears the label "scientific." -Carl Jung
Last edited by Student of Sophia on 26 Nov 2009, 08:40, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 26 Nov 2009, 08:27

ProfWag wrote:If you 've seen or experienced something, then share it. Otherwise, your statement is as good as fiction.


I've given the categories of anomalous experiences I've had. That's all I'm going to do. No details for you.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 26 Nov 2009, 08:32

You guys are amazing. But I have climbed to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge. I climbed El Cap in Yosemite 3 times (1000m). Rode on horseback to watch rhinos. Stood on top of the pyramids at Giza. Saw a meteor that cast shadows. Watched the Berlin wall being built. Swam with piranhas. Was staring into volcano when it erupted and hit a town 8 miles away.
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