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Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

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Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 21 Nov 2009, 22:48

I made a poll on Richard Dawkins forum, asking skeptics if they would accept psi if mainstream science does. The poll results say they wouldn't.

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtop ... 3&t=100314

Very discouraging. Even if parapsychology overcame the taboo and was accepted by mainstream science, pseudo-skeptics would still reject it.

Needless to say, this speaks of their hypocrisy. I hear from them all the time about how mainstream science doesn't accept psi, so why should they? They want to have their cake and eat it too.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 22 Nov 2009, 02:00

Here's what I got: The board requires you to be registered and logged in to view this forum.

Since I'd rather not register, can you perhaps copy and paste the highlights if the article is too long?
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby NinjaPuppy » 22 Nov 2009, 02:02

Very discouraging. Even if parapsychology overcame the taboo and was accepted by mainstream science, pseudo-skeptics would still reject it.

Yes, it's discouraging but at least there would be some headway made in this field should that happen.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 22 Nov 2009, 04:04

NinjaPuppy wrote:Here's what I got: The board requires you to be registered and logged in to view this forum.

Since I'd rather not register, can you perhaps copy and paste the highlights if the article is too long?


It's too long, but in a nutshell the poll question was 'If Parapsychology became mainstream, would you accept psi?'

Eleven votes for no, zero for yes.

I elaborated on the poll question in my OP by saying:

"I was reading Spotlight on Skeptics, and I wondered. If parapsychology were to be accepted by mainstream science someday, somehow...would you accept psychic phenomena? Or is it the kind of thing you wouldn't believe in "even if it were true?""

So I accused them of irrationality and hypocrisy. They tried to split hairs to muster a defense, saying the poll wasn't clear enough. I didn't buy it. Their efforts smacked of a crooked defense lawyer trying to get a guilty client off the hook.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Eteponge » 22 Nov 2009, 04:22

The "I wouldn't believe it even if you could prove it to me!" mentality. Just like how if you ask Christian Fundies if they will accept Evolution based on evidence, and if their Church at large accepts it, they will say no. Debunkers and Religious Fundies are opposite yet equal brothers in stupidity. Max Planck said it best ...

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it” - Max Planck, Physicist
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 22 Nov 2009, 04:45

Eteponge wrote:The "I wouldn't believe it even if you could prove it to me!" mentality. Just like how if you ask Christian Fundies if they will accept Evolution based on evidence, and if their Church at large accepts it, they will say no. Debunkers and Religious Fundies are opposite yet equal brothers in stupidity. Max Planck said it best ...

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it” - Max Planck, Physicist


Yep, he nailed it.

The problem as I see it is this. Humanity is in a very serious situation. We might not make it to the 22nd century. The problems that we face could be solved by a Humanity that has reached its psychic potential. Psi is more powerful with more minds, collective strength. Noosphere. With our collective mind-over-matter we could clean up the pollution and the waste, cure disease, restore the eco-system, correct global warming, colonize the solar system.

Maybe it's just a Utopian dream, but either way pseudo-skeptics are standing in the way of the truth. Do we have time to wait for psi opponents to eventually die?

I hope so.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Nov 2009, 06:17

I like that quote Eteponge. It sums things up well. At one time I worked in a scientific field in which the company owner had this weird and uncontrollable hatred of the status quo. I think he couldn't appreciate the advances being made and was digging a hole to die in.

It is Nov 21 and as I recall it is time for the test in California to happen. That means if this woman is able to demonstrate her abilities in a controlled environment that some ideas need to be reevaluated and sooner than later. A failure does not mean that her claim is bunk unless it is a complete failure.

I'm interested in seeing what happens.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 22 Nov 2009, 06:28

Test? What test is that?
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Nov 2009, 11:31

Someone claimed they could see inside of a human body. They volunteered to go to LA to take part in a $50K prize if they passed the test. People claiming paranormal abilities rarely enter testing phases. I'll find the link and post it here.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Nov 2009, 12:18

This is the link to the post. I'll see if the LA group posted anything yet.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=616&sid=83d9dec72abb4dec0d4c1f857d466285
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Nov 2009, 12:27

This is from http://www.iigwest.com/investigations/2009/20091025_pressrelease.html
Hollywood, CA, October 25, 2009 — The Independent Investigations Group — L.A.’s premiere skeptical organization — has been challenging would be psychics by offering them $50,000 cash if they can prove their abilities. Now, Anita Ikonen — a 26 year old student from University of North Carolina at Charlotte — claims she can see inside the human body without the aid of an MRI or X-Ray machine. During this preliminary Anita Ikonen demonstration Ms. Ikonen will be presented with multiple human test subjects and asked to identify those who are missing internal organs. If she is successful Anita will move on to the formal test for the IIG’s “$50,000 Challenge,” and potentially go for a one million dollar prize offered by the godfather of skepticism — James Randi. The demonstration will be conducted at the offices of the Center for Inquiry in Hollywood on November 21, 2009.


So today is the day of the test! What is not listed is the day on which the results are released.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Nov 2009, 12:46

A search on the web indicates that Anita failed to be able to look inside of people. Apparently today included a live feed, associated chat rooms to discuss what was happened all other things the internet provides us. A real sports arena atmosphere here.

So tis test did not work out. I think we can all appreciate Anita's willingness to be tested. I personally admire her. There are too many con artists out there who are too timid and scared to be tested. Bravo Anita.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby ProfWag » 22 Nov 2009, 21:13

I went out to the site and looked at the thread with the question. Essentially, all of the people that commented, said "no" because it was a poorly worded question, open to different interpretations. They all said they would accept it if there was evidence of psi, but just because psi is accepted by mainstream science doesn't mean that there is evidence to support it. I believe there may be some miscommunication between what the author of this thread intended and how the question on Dawkins' site was worded. Perhaps if you had asked something along the lines of "If there was evidence of psi resulting from scrutinized testing, and these tests were then replicated and verified by mainstream science, would you accept it?" I'm quite confident you would have received 11 out of 11 yes votes.
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Student of Sophia » 22 Nov 2009, 23:56

Nostradamus wrote:A search on the web indicates that Anita failed to be able to look inside of people. Apparently today included a live feed, associated chat rooms to discuss what was happened all other things the internet provides us. A real sports arena atmosphere here.

So tis test did not work out. I think we can all appreciate Anita's willingness to be tested. I personally admire her. There are too many con artists out there who are too timid and scared to be tested. Bravo Anita.


Yes I admire her bravery. I suspect her ability is quite real, but the nature of the sheep-goat effect will prevent such ability from ever being demonstrated to the world and also will prevent it from ever disappearing. We aren't ready for it yet.

"For twenty-five years I have been in touch with the literature on psychical research, and have had acquaintance with numerous “researchers.” I have also spent a good many hours in witnessing . . . phenomena. Yet I am theoretically no “further” than I was at the beginning; and I . . . have been tempted to believe that the Creator has eternally intended this department to remain baffling, to prompt our hopes and suspicions all in equal measure, so that, although ghosts and clairvoyances, and raps and messages from spirits, are always seeming to exist and can never be fully explained away, they also can never be susceptible to full corroboration." -William James
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Re: Skeptics wouldn't accept psi, even if science does

Postby Nostradamus » 23 Nov 2009, 02:08

Yes I admire her bravery. I suspect her ability is quite real, but the nature of the sheep-goat effect will prevent such ability from ever being demonstratedto the world and also will prevent it from ever disappearing. We aren't ready for it yet.


Why do you suspect her ability is real? She could not demonstrate what she claims. It appears it only worked 1 before and in suspect circumstances.
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