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A very intriguing paranormal case

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A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 29 Oct 2010, 23:32

I recently came across a most intriguing account documented by paranormal researcher Paul Eno, in which two shaman allegedly traveled into an alternate history, and dragged back two people who had died in our reality but were still alive in this alternate history. These two individuals brought here couldn't adjust to our reality, because as they came from an alternate history, their memories were different. The young boy for example recognized his parents, but didn't recognize some of his siblings and neighbors, etc. It didn't turn out well for either of them ...

http://www.newenglandghosts.com/backfromthedead.htm

"On two occasions in the late 1970s, when my cases were nudging me closer and closer to multiverse thinking, I encountered two shamans of two different traditions in two different parts of the world. Both said that they had known other shamans, many years before, who had literally gone into "the other world" and brought back people who had died -- bodies and all. According to these two men, who were very reluctant to talk about this, the shamans had performed these deeds against their better judgment and only after being harassed, then highly paid, by the grieving families. Allegedly, one shaman, in Australia, had brought back a young boy nearly a year after his death.

The two men I spoke with insisted that these events involved neither reincarnation nor resurrection. The two subjects were literally dragged out of other worlds where they had never died. Fascinatingly, both men also said that the shamans who did it soon regretted it.

The young boy who was brought back knew his parents but not some of his siblings or neighbors, I was told. According to the story, he never again "fit" into the community and ended up insane. The other returner, a dead man in his 20s, the father of a family, seemed confused and frightened, then tried to fit in, later running off into the forest, never to return. The man who told me this story, a boy at the time of the incident, actually claimed to have seen this returner.

Given what appears to be the nature of the multiverse, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that "returns" such as these are impossible. People disappear into thin air relatively often, sometimes in front of witnesses. Where -- or when -- do they go? All those "spirit guides" or guardians we hear tell of and sometimes feel ourselves -- could some of them be shamans from parallel worlds, trying to reach us?

Similarly, mysterious people appear out of thin air from time to time, not knowing where they are. On a few occasions, they have carried passports and money from countries that never existed, spoken no known language and/or worn clothes of no known fabric."


I tried contacting him on his Facebook to ask for more indepth information on these two cases, but I never received a response.

Has anyone ever heard of any purported cases like this? Even in folklore? I find it to be very fascinating, even if it turns out to be little more than folklore.
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby derrida » 29 Oct 2010, 23:40

WOW!!!
thats really a great story!
i would love to go and see that movie

how did you found this?
do you know how the guys supposedly travel back in time?
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 29 Oct 2010, 23:58

derrida wrote:WOW!!!
thats really a great story!
i would love to go and see that movie

how did you found this?
do you know how the guys supposedly travel back in time?

The two shaman did not travel back in time, they allegedly traveled into an alternate history where the young boy and young man had never died, and brought them back here to be with their grieving families (ironically, in doing so, that means they were stolen from their *real* families in their reality). When the young boy was brought here to live with his grieving parents for example, he recognized both of his parents, but he did not recognize some of his siblings and neighbors. Because obviously, in the alternate history he lived in, some of his siblings were never born, and he never knew the neighbors that had known his deceased double here.

It reminds me a lot of an old video game released in 1999, called Chrono Cross (which is one of my favorite rpgs from that era). In it, a teenage boy travels into an alternate history, goes back to his village, to find that no one recognizes him, and he eventually discovers that he drown 10 years ago, and many other details in town are different.

That's what the tale instantly reminded me of.
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Arouet » 30 Oct 2010, 00:02

Actually, the TV show Fringe deals with exactly this topic although they use technology and vast sums of energy.

Fun show though...
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby caniswalensis » 30 Oct 2010, 00:19

I gotta say, while I do not see any compelling reason to believe in stories like this, I absoultly LOVE them!

I am all geeked out thinking about it right now. :)

Thanks for posting this.

Regards, Canis
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 30 Oct 2010, 00:19

Arouet wrote:Actually, the TV show Fringe deals with exactly this topic although they use technology and vast sums of energy.

Fun show though...

My favorite example is the TV show Sliders. (First and Second Seasons were the best.)

In the very first episode, the main character Quinn (a college student who accidentally finds a way to open wormholes while trying to discover anti-gravity) opens a wormhole in his basement, and he jumps through the wormhole, and finds himself right back in his basement, and thinks nothing has changed. He leaves the house to go to work. On the radio, the DJ is talking about how he wishes Jack Kennedy would run for president again, but since he wakes up next to his wife Marilyn everyday, he can see why he doesn't like to get out of bed. Quinn is confused. Then he sees a giant sign advertising Elvis Presley (an old Elvis) currently performing live in Las Vegas. Then he stops at a red light, and people behind him are honking at him, and then he sees people stopping at green lights (red means go, green means stop). He goes back home, to find that the gate to his house that has been squeaking since he was 12 no longer squeaks, and that his mother is pregnant and married to their gardener and wears glasses, etc.

In a later part of the same episode, he lands in a reality where he finds a photograph of him, his parents, and with them a mysterious girl, and the dog that ran away as a puppy as a full adult dog (indicating that he never ran away here). He remarks, "That girl must be the sister I never had!"

In a later episode, one of the other main characters, Wade Wells, she meets her father and sister in an alternate history, where she (Wade) had been born stillborn and her mother had died giving birth to her. Her father and sister did not recognize her (as her double had died as an infant), but she told her sister in this reality a bunch of stuff she couldn't possibly know. Like, that when she was seven, she hid her birthday presents in the closet and opened them. She also told her sister the name of the first boy she ever kissed (her sister responded, "he actually ran away before I kissed him, but no one could know I even tried.") Etc. It was a cool episode.

That's gotta be my favorite tv series in regards to alternate history stuff.

Never knew that Fringe dealt with this topic, I should look into it.
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Arouet » 30 Oct 2010, 00:34

Yeah, I was a big Sliders fan myself back in the day!
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 30 Oct 2010, 04:22

Paul Eno just responded to me ...

"Hi, Travis -- When I talk about that on the air I always qualify it by saying that it was heard from "a friend of a friend" 31 years ago in both cases. However, these two guys came across as absolutely solid in their belief of it, both said they had seen the returners with their own eyes and had known the respective Aboriginal and Cree shamans in question. What's in that article is all I know (except for the precise location in Quebec) All I can say is that those two conversations were at the root of my "awakening" to the multiverse perspective, and as far as I can see it has never steered me wrong."
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Arouet » 30 Oct 2010, 04:42

I am so not qualified to get into arguments about physics, but even accepting the multiverse hypothesis as true, my gut tells me that you'd need really massive amounts of energy to pass from one reality to another. How would this be controlled (science fiction aside). How would it be directed? When between universes, what would the effect of gravity be? Would one get torn apart by gravitational forces that are not completely in sink?

I'm really out of my baliwick, but even accepting parrallel universes, its a far cry from being able to access them. A
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 30 Oct 2010, 14:46

Arouet, This is my baliwick. This is the most irrational set of things I have experienced, so far out of normal discourse it almost never comes up in conversation.
I was raised to “believe” intensely in the 19th century mechanistic version of Calvinist predestination. Personal experience taught me that praying to G-d to “make it didn't happen” didn't work.
But at some point in my childhood I discovered the quantum mechanical theory of the multiverse, and, with great relief, I started intensely “believing” in that.
Then I started experiencing it. I tripped and broke my nose, and immediately in my perception went back two seconds, tripped and caught myself. For about a year I remembered another suicide experience every day. I found it slightly more useful in the sense it made me feel a little better to believe I was surviving suicide, rather than heading towards it.
I would see news stories, such as one concerning the death of Fred McMurray, which I would discuss with people, and later learn they did not happen. In the case of McMurray, the people who had discussed it with me also did not remember. This makes an Orwellian rewrite less likely.
I have had so many experiences that are accountable for by the the theory that there are leaks between universes through which I, at least, travel, that I have come to “believe” it in almost the sense you use belief, as something that has experientially passed the bar of extraordinary evidence, especially since last year, when a friend witnessed me flatten to 2 dimensions and “ripple” while I felt what felt like the most intense quantum shift I have experienced aside from the two times I have died and found that nobody noticed.
So, I confess to the utter insanity of believing this with such a degree of conviction that you can come up with no explanation that is more useful for me this one, as it accounts for things the simple informational universe theory does not. (Okay, maybe you can. I'd be interested)
As a skeptic, I realize these claims are unfalsifiable, and by stating them, I leave most people with no alternative than to conclude that I am either some combination of foolish, deluded, and/or deceitful, (I admit these first two are more probable than the multiverse, but they are neither as useful to me, nor do they make me feel as good) or the universe is an inexplicable place.
Twain, on behalf of Shakespeare
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Arouet » 30 Oct 2010, 17:41

Twain Shakespeare wrote:Arouet, This is my baliwick. This is the most irrational set of things I have experienced, so far out of normal discourse it almost never comes up in conversation.
I was raised to “believe” intensely in the 19th century mechanistic version of Calvinist predestination. Personal experience taught me that praying to G-d to “make it didn't happen” didn't work.
But at some point in my childhood I discovered the quantum mechanical theory of the multiverse, and, with great relief, I started intensely “believing” in that.
Then I started experiencing it. I tripped and broke my nose, and immediately in my perception went back two seconds, tripped and caught myself. For about a year I remembered another suicide experience every day. I found it slightly more useful in the sense it made me feel a little better to believe I was surviving suicide, rather than heading towards it.
I would see news stories, such as one concerning the death of Fred McMurray, which I would discuss with people, and later learn they did not happen. In the case of McMurray, the people who had discussed it with me also did not remember. This makes an Orwellian rewrite less likely.
I have had so many experiences that are accountable for by the the theory that there are leaks between universes through which I, at least, travel, that I have come to “believe” it in almost the sense you use belief, as something that has experientially passed the bar of extraordinary evidence, especially since last year, when a friend witnessed me flatten to 2 dimensions and “ripple” while I felt what felt like the most intense quantum shift I have experienced aside from the two times I have died and found that nobody noticed.
So, I confess to the utter insanity of believing this with such a degree of conviction that you can come up with no explanation that is more useful for me this one, as it accounts for things the simple informational universe theory does not. (Okay, maybe you can. I'd be interested)
As a skeptic, I realize these claims are unfalsifiable, and by stating them, I leave most people with no alternative than to conclude that I am either some combination of foolish, deluded, and/or deceitful, (I admit these first two are more probable than the multiverse, but they are neither as useful to me, nor do they make me feel as good) or the universe is an inexplicable place.
Twain, on behalf of Shakespeare


It's an interesting story to be sure, Twain, but I try and stay away from commenting on personal experiences such as this. They are extremely difficult to evaluate, as you have quite correctly noted. There could be a number of explanations for your experiences - which I take at face value, the question is what is the correct interpretation of these experiences?
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 31 Oct 2010, 02:14

Granted about the difficulty of discussing. Unless I have darn good reason, I do not talk about it. I take it at face value. My main alternative hypothesis is that this is the way right brain has made sense of things, although that still leaves the things somewhat unclassified. It is probable to me that this is merely personal delusion. Its main effect is too make me less likely to assume people are outright lieing when they tell me bizaare experiences. So, back to a more skeptical self-presentation. Just thought you'd like to have the info in your anecdotal file. Peace, and thanx for the response :)
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 31 Oct 2010, 04:21

I've been talking some more with Paul Eno, he also said this ...

"Both shamans I spoke with were clear that the guys who did this ruled the day! As I said, the families gave them no peace, and paid them a pile of dough, before they agreed to do it. That fact (assuming it's true as told) indicates that the families must have known it could be done -- thereby suggesting earlier precedents. Of course, shamanic work goes back tens of thousands of years."

I also brought up how the Shaman in this anecdote misused this gift, stealing those two young men away from their real families to place them in an unfamiliar world with alternate versions of their loved ones, I suggested that the only way that situation could have potentially worked out, was if the Shaman had tapped into a reality where the child had lost both of his parents (as here it was the parents who lost the child), and a reality where the young man had lost his wife and kids (as here it was the wife and kids who lost the young man). In that scenario, both parties from both worlds are mutually grieving, and them reunited together might have taken better hold, as them leaving that other world would not have been as hard, if they suffered a mutual loss. If the reality they were taken from was very similar to our own, it would have been even better, as not much memory variance.

Something tells me that (if true) these Shaman probably could not fine tune their journey, and simply tapped into a random alternate history in the multiverse, grabbed the first alternate versions of those individuals they came across, without any thought of them or their situation or consequences. Hence, why they deeply regretted it afterwards.

Paul Eno responded ...

"I'm not sure it could have worked out in any scenario. It almost seems as though multiverse interaction of any kind needs to be spontaneous to do any good. If it's planned and executed, it seems likely to get messed up - as though there's some missing ingredient."
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Scepcop » 31 Oct 2010, 04:23

Eteponge wrote:Paul Eno just responded to me ...

"Hi, Travis -- When I talk about that on the air I always qualify it by saying that it was heard from "a friend of a friend" 31 years ago in both cases. However, these two guys came across as absolutely solid in their belief of it, both said they had seen the returners with their own eyes and had known the respective Aboriginal and Cree shamans in question. What's in that article is all I know (except for the precise location in Quebec) All I can say is that those two conversations were at the root of my "awakening" to the multiverse perspective, and as far as I can see it has never steered me wrong."


Paul Eno has some interesting comments about Pseudoskeptics:

http://www.newenglandghosts.com/skeptics.htm

Amid the flurry of today's popular interest in things paranormal, there are lone voices and small groups who chuckle now and then, patiently pointing out that the paranormal is a pseudoscience and that every "paranormal" phenomenon has a "rational" or "natural" explanation.

These are the skeptics, or (since I believe that every paranormal investigator should be an open-minded skeptic), one might say, the superskeptics. They shake their heads in amusement or disgust as they hurl down thunderbolts from their armchairs upon us "true believers."

Rarely do skeptics actually go out and research the paranormal for themselves -- the first step in the scientific method they supposedly espouse. After all, one must intelligently decide what not to believe as well as what to believe.

A notable exception is the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and its various local affiliates. While CSICOP's official position is that they would love to find "real scientific evidence" of ghosts, ESP or UFOs, they never do. I respect them because they at least get out of the armchairs, go into the field and investigate "claims of the paranormal."

As a matter of fact, I belonged to CSICOP for a number of years in the 1970s and 1980s. I left them for several reasons.

I found their research dishonest. It was skewed against finding a paranormal explanation for anything. They were and are, in my opinion, one of the last holdouts of a discredited, 19th century philosophy of "scientific materialism" or "material realism" which basically says that everything in the universe comes down to matter, and that everything can be explained in terms of matter and its interaction with other matter.

Quantum physics blew this philosophy out of the water long ago.

In effect, these superskeptics try to measure the circumference of a beachball with a straight ruler. When they can't do it, they simply declare that the beachball doesn't exist.

You cannot explain a multi-dimensional universe with a three-dimensional scientific method.

Their skepticism extends to religion, too, and there is a strong current of atheism in the skeptical movement. I don't like this either. How intelligent can people be when they miss the whole point of the universe -- God? I find that most people who reject God either have axes to grind with the religions they grew up in, can't distinguish between being spiritual and being "religious," or simply have some goofy caricature of God that I don't believe in either.

The whole implication is that our ancient ancestors were a pack of nitwits because they accepted things like God, "life after death," spirits, angels or whatever as "givens," and pursued science and philosophy in the direction of what they didn't know: Things like the nature of the human mind and how we can get along with each other. Our ancestors knew that God and the paranormal not only exist but are intimately entwined with our own existence.

The fact is that we know almost nothing for sure about our world or ourselves. Every answer science brings us has 10 more questions trotting along behind it. The fact is that nobody, no matter how many degrees they may have after their names, has any right to a closed mind.

So, to the superskeptics, I say, "Get over it!" We're the philosophical freaks of human history. Our ancestors knew. We have chosen to forget, perhaps because it's very comforting to think that our little laws and assumptions put us, at least to some extent, in control of our world. To the superskeptics I say, "You're the ones with the problem. The burden of proof is on you."

As with any other belief system, skepticism and its brand of established science is a matter of faith. And all of us believe what we want to believe. It's human nature.

The true skeptic is open to ALL possibilities and, yes, ALL impossibilities. But until we achieve that kind of objectivity, we're stuck with that true principal of modern superskepticism: For the believer, no proof is required. For the unbeliever, no proof is sufficient.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: A very intriguing paranormal case

Postby Eteponge » 01 Nov 2010, 15:05

Scepcop: I have him added on my Facebook if you want to add him, he's got some very interesting theories on paranormal topics. He's one of the old school researchers, started in the 1960s and 1970s. He's the first paranormal researcher I've come across that shares my own views on the multiverse.
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