View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman ?

Discuss General Topics.

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 04:31

I think a discussion on cure vs treatment would just end up to be a pointless
semantical one. I think it is quite clear what cure is, the disease is removed.
Although I know that professionals are reluctant to use the word "cure" As far
as I am concerned if the disease has been removed, it is cured.

In the first article, the diabetes in the subjects undergoing Ayurvedic treatment
was eradicated, to the point where they no longer required any medicine anymore
to control the diabetes.

The article on Parkinson's disease says that the process can be reversed and a high
success achieived by following the Ayurvedic treatment. Hence it is theoretically
possible to reverse the entire process. In Ayurveda as soon as the dosa balance
is restored the disease will disappear.

In this article an Ayurvedic doctors has successfully cured AIDS:
http://www.lifepositive.com/body/body-h ... -drugs.asp

Although he himself denies the word cure, this itself suggests cure:

Dr Shanthakumar first treated an AIDS victim in 1992: "About eight years ago, an AIDS patient met me. I applied the ayurvedic therapy keeping his symptoms in mind. He would collapse with high temperature once a week, though he did not harbor malarial parasites. After a month`s treatment, the fever and shivering subsided. After three months, his weight increased from 43 kg to 48 kg. After ten months, he tested negative for HIV.


In Yoga, diseases like asthma can be completely cured. This Yoga sites claim themselveS:

Yoga has become a very popular curing vehicle for most of the ailment that plague humans today. Asthma too can be controlled and even cured completely with the help of yoga.


http://www.yogiclogic.com/yoga-cures/yo ... tients.php

In any case what is clear here is this health systems works and works much better than modern medicine
and has a much greater understanding of the diseases as well.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01






Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 25 Jun 2010, 04:38

I think you're right that a discussion with you about the difference between cure and treatment would be pointless. I have shown you repeatedly that the articles you present for evidence that yoga, etc. cures diabetes and Parkinsons do not even say that they cure, yet you insist that they do. So, if you are going to misrepresent the facts, then there is no point in discussing it further. I guess, per your terminology, misrepresenting the facts makes you a "pseudo-believer?"
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 04:49

In this article I see no mention of a prana force as one agent to affect a cure. Perhaps I missed it for there are words there foreign to me. What I do see mentioned is the use of chemicals and a healthy life style.


Well, yes Ayurvedic treatments mainly consists of natural chemical drugs, lifestyle regulation, and although not practiced today, even surgery. It is a
complete medical system. It also incoporates Yoga and meditation. The metaphysical dimension here is the theory on which all these practices work,
which in the case of Ayurveda are regulatory bioenergy systems in the body, vata, pitta and kapha, which administer and govern all functions in the body.
The Yogic terminology is different in that it uses terms like energy points, energy pathways, and pranic energy, which is slightly different to the Ayurvedic
theory, but actually similar. As both are based on a fundamental understanding that disease begins at an energetic level.

Using five different search engines, the researchers found 25 Web sites that sold traditional Ayurvedic herbs, formulas, and ingredients. They identified 673 products and randomly selected 230 for purchase in August–October 2005; 193 of these products were received and tested for the presence of metals.

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/s ... 082808.htm

This does bode well for a healthy life style[/quote]

Yes, Ayurvedic metal compound formulations uses base metals like gold, silver, lead, mecury, arsnic. However, they are treated through a special chemical process
in order to neutralize their toxic qualities. Mercury, in particular has been found to be an immune system booster. Now before you balk, you should be aware that
even modern medicine uses base metals, mercury, poisons in medicine. Of course, when purchasing Ayurvedic drugs which contain metal compounds, one must be
aware they are purchasing it from a reliable company. As the chemical treatment is a delicate and specialized process.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 04:54

ProfWag wrote:I think you're right that a discussion with you about the difference between cure and treatment would be pointless. I have shown you repeatedly that the articles you present for evidence that yoga, etc. cures diabetes and Parkinsons do not even say that they cure, yet you insist that they do. So, if you are going to misrepresent the facts, then there is no point in discussing it further. I guess, per your terminology, misrepresenting the facts makes you a "pseudo-believer?"


It's a moot issue. The disease is removed, that's a cure mate.

By the way the Yoga articles do in fact claim they cure. I just posted one that says it
can treat and completely cure asthma.

Why are you so reluctant to use the word cure? When you catch a cold, and the cold goes
(disease is removed) don't you say you are cured?
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 25 Jun 2010, 05:05

Indigo Child wrote:It's a moot issue. The disease is removed, that's a cure mate.

By the way the Yoga articles do in fact claim they cure. I just posted one that says it
can treat and completely cure asthma.

Why are you so reluctant to use the word cure? When you catch a cold, and the cold goes
(disease is removed) don't you say you are cured?

Yes, if a disease is removed, it's cured.
I don't, but say I have high blood pressure. The Doctor gives me medicine. My high blood pressure is now normal. I am not "cured" of high blood pressure, I'm simply treating my disease. Once I stop my treatment, my high blood pressure returns.
If I have a cold and I take Nyquil to releave my symptoms, I still have a cold. I am not cured. (by the way, the common cold is a virus, not a disease. As long as I have the virus, I have a cold. There is no cure that has been found to "cure" a cold)
If I have asthma and have an attack, I practice yoga to releave myself of the symptoms. I still have asthma.
It is dangerous to tell people they can be "cured" of things by doing nothing but yoga. There are people out there who claim that yoga cures cancer. Very, very dangerous person, Kimosabe.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 06:12

Yes, if a disease is removed, it's cured.
I don't, but say I have high blood pressure. The Doctor gives me medicine. My high blood pressure is now normal. I am not "cured" of high blood pressure, I'm simply treating my disease. Once I stop my treatment, my high blood pressure returns.
If I have a cold and I take Nyquil to releave my symptoms, I still have a cold. I am not cured. (by the way, the common cold is a virus, not a disease. As long as I have the virus, I have a cold. There is no cure that has been found to "cure" a cold)
If I have asthma and have an attack, I practice yoga to releave myself of the symptoms. I still have asthma.
It is dangerous to tell people they can be "cured" of things by doing nothing but yoga. There are people out there who claim that yoga cures cancer. Very, very dangerous person, Kimosabe.


At the moment all the scientifc studies which have been done on Yoga affirm that Yoga does indeed reverse many
diseases which are incurable in modern medicine, including hypertension, asthma, arthritis and even cancer. This
combined with Ayurvedic treatment would be powerful. Of course more scientific empirical evidence is needed in
the West to say that they could cure them, but so far the results are very encouraging. However, India already has
thousands of years of empirical evidence, and it is well documented in Sanskrit medical texts and in the various Yoga
traditions. It already knows its healthcare system works. It's passed the test of time.

I am afraid the modern medical system is lacking and lagging behind Yoga and Ayurveda. These are supersciences, and
as I said before work on a more fundamental understanding of the body. They may well be classified as "alternative" in the West,
but they are not alternative to their native India . They have been the principle medical systems of India for the past 5000
years.

Today, we are coming to understand ourselves just how powerful this system is. We now know that the herbal forumations
it prescribes do in fact have the properties the Sanskrit texts claim, and are seriously considering them as alternatives. If there is
one area that the West has lagged behind in, compared to the East, that is the health sciences. The East have done a lot more in this
area than the West has, especially in studying the mind.

As regards to stopping Yoga and eating healthy and practicing healthy lifetyles. Well, obviously if you stop that, disease is going to set in.
The whole point of Yoga is to prevent disease, not to cure disease. If you can keep your mind-body system in balance, you will not catch diseases,
even if you are exposed to germs and viruses. If you are an advanded Yogi, you will gain full control over your body, and can direct energy in your
body if when and required. A yogin is somebody on the way to becoming superhuman. This is why Yoga has long been known as a superscience.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 25 Jun 2010, 11:04

Indigo Child wrote:
In this article I see no mention of a prana force as one agent to affect a cure. Perhaps I missed it for there are words there foreign to me. What I do see mentioned is the use of chemicals and a healthy life style.






Yes, Ayurvedic metal compound formulations uses base metals like gold, silver, lead, mecury, arsnic. However, they are treated through a special chemical process
in order to neutralize their toxic qualities. Mercury, in particular has been found to be an immune system booster. Now before you balk, you should be aware that
even modern medicine uses base metals, mercury, poisons in medicine. Of course, when purchasing Ayurvedic drugs which contain metal compounds, one must be
aware they are purchasing it from a reliable company. As the chemical treatment is a delicate and specialized process.


I love the way you continue to make declarative statements and expect us to take you at your word like some authoritative source. I want you to point to a reference in any medical literature that backs up your statement Lead, Mercury and Arsenic are processed to neutralize their toxicity.
As for purchasing from reliable companies how does anyone able to do that ?
really?
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 20:58

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 13:10

The mercury, arsnic lead thing is just fear mongering:

http://www.boloji.com/ayurveda/av053.htm

Do you know the swine flu injection actually contains mercury?

Do you know many medicines contain toxic substances:

http://www.medhunters.com/articles/medi ... isons.html

Anything can be toxic or medicinal depending on the amount one takes. The use
of heavy metals in Ayurvedic medicine has been going on for 3000 years, and as
far as we know people have not been dropping dead of poisoning for 3000 years. If it
was really toxic, then we would have known about it long ago. The fact is, the amount
used is a trace amount, and it is specially chemically treated. This process has been refined
over a period of 3000 years. It has been found that using heavy metals have been very beneficial
in treating very serious disorders. I am not going to argue with thousands of years of empirical
research.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 25 Jun 2010, 20:07

Indigo Child wrote:The mercury, arsnic lead thing is just fear mongering:

http://www.boloji.com/ayurveda/av053.htm

Do you know the swine flu injection actually contains mercury?

Do you know many medicines contain toxic substances:

http://www.medhunters.com/articles/medi ... isons.html

Anything can be toxic or medicinal depending on the amount one takes. The use
of heavy metals in Ayurvedic medicine has been going on for 3000 years, and as
far as we know people have not been dropping dead of poisoning for 3000 years. If it
was really toxic, then we would have known about it long ago. The fact is, the amount
used is a trace amount, and it is specially chemically treated. This process has been refined
over a period of 3000 years. It has been found that using heavy metals have been very beneficial
in treating very serious disorders. I am not going to argue with thousands of years of empirical
research.


You're reading comprehension needs improvement. I didn't ask you to prove your argument by showing me more articles of how potentially toxic chemicals are used. I asked you to provide medical evidence of the process by which the toxicity of Lead, Mercury and Arsenic are rendered non toxic or neutralized as you put it.

By the way. You've used an informal logical fallacy just because something has been done for 3000 [ old ] doesn't make it effective or the best way of doing something. The author of the second article has also used several logical fallacies. If you care to see which here's a link http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skep ... ments.html

Since you've expressed your opinion Ayurvedic medicine is safe and affective you've once again been remiss in practicing good skeptic thinking. Does that make you a pseudo-skeptic ?
really?
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 20:58

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 25 Jun 2010, 20:57

This is within the medical texts of Ayurveda. I don't know how it
works, because I am not a chemist. It supposedly works. Its tried
and tested over thousands of years. I am not going to argue it does
not work.

I am not using the fallacy you claim, because I am not saying it is
good solely because it is old, I am saying there is no evidence that
its use of heavy metals is dangerous, because whatever process it
uses to reduce the toxity, obviously works. Otherwise we would have
known about it long ago.

How and why it works does not completely concern me. I don't ask that
question when I take medicine, drive the car, board an aeroplane, use
my mobile. I use them because they work. Similarly, how and why Ayurveda
and yoga work, is not all that important, the fact is they do.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 25 Jun 2010, 21:19

Indigo Child wrote: However, India already has
thousands of years of empirical evidence, and it is well documented in Sanskrit medical texts and in the various Yoga
traditions. It already knows its healthcare system works. It's passed the test of time.

I won't arbitrarily disagree with you, but let's discuss this empirical evidence.
The life expectancy in the United States is 77.1 years.
The life expectancy in India is 62.5 years.
Source: http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm

If their healthcare system works, it does not appear to work as well as you think or as well as western medicine. I think I'll stick with my local medical doctor and keep yoga as a nice varience to my exercise routine.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 25 Jun 2010, 21:48

Indigo Child wrote:
How and why it works does not completely concern me. I don't ask that
question when I take medicine, drive the car, board an aeroplane, use
my mobile. I use them because they work. Similarly, how and why Ayurveda
and yoga work, is not all that important, the fact is they do.


Perhaps if you were more inquisitive you would not be so trusting and not so certain you are always right as the above statement implies. This outlook of yours is fine for you, but don't think for one moment it's the way all should proceed through life.
really?
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 06 Mar 2010, 20:58

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 26 Jun 2010, 03:56

won't arbitrarily disagree with you, but let's discuss this empirical evidence.
The life expectancy in the United States is 77.1 years.
The life expectancy in India is 62.5 years.
Source: http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm

If their healthcare system works, it does not appear to work as well as you think or as well as western medicine. I think I'll stick with my local medical doctor and keep yoga as a nice varience to my exercise routine.


This only gives you empirical proof that India is a developing country. Like all developing
countries its health indices, including life expectancy, will be lower than developed countries.
It tells you nothing about its traditional medical system and the health of people in those times.
In fact, even in India today, western medicine is the main healthcare system. Ayurveda and Yoga
has only resurged in popularity recently.

In traditional India, this is before the British colonized India, India was doing very well indeed. We
know this through economic statistics at the time. At the time Ayurveda was flourishing during the
the time India was divided into many republics around 1000BCE, India was a highly developed country,
with many empires(Maurayas etc) and a flourishing literary and scientific culture. The worlds first universities and
hospitals appeared here and the first philosophical schools appeared there. It was the first to practice surgery, have the
words first full medical system, amongst many things. In 1AD to 10AD it was on a semi-industrial scale producing steel
and exporting it to the rest of the world. Even at the height of the roman empire in Western Europe, its industrial
output was greater. In this period India made huge contributions in mathematics, astronomy, chemistry and
material sciences.

If we go back even further into antiquity during the Indus valley phase in 3000BCE, which is roughly how far Yoga
and Ayurveda go, India was by the far the most developed civilisation on the planet, and the standards of health
as can be glaned from the excavations were remarkable. It had waste and disposal systems, undergound sewage
sytems abnd plumbing. Every resident lived in a house, which had its own drinking well, a toilet, ovens. There was also
a city reservoir. The city was planned like a modern city, and was laid on a grid, with right angled roads and streets.
Each house had a boulevard. It is evident the people lived very affluent lives as we can find from the discovery of cosmetics
toys and it was a middle-class culture. There is evidence of industry as well, such as the production of dyes, ivory etc.
Ironically, the sanitation system in the IVC is said to better than the modern ones in India and most middle Eastern
countries.

More info on Indus valley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization

A resconstruction of the IVC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdGbamPg ... re=related

I would expect nothing less of a civilisation that can produce something like Yoga and Ayurveda. It is clearly
evident how healthy and developed ancient India was, when these sciences were flourishing.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 26 Jun 2010, 08:45

Indigo Child wrote:
This only gives you empirical proof that India is a developing country. Like all developing
countries its health indices, including life expectancy, will be lower than developed countries.
It tells you nothing about its traditional medical system and the health of people in those times.
In fact, even in India today, western medicine is the main healthcare system. Ayurveda and Yoga
has only resurged in popularity recently.


What you have said here is that western medicine is better than ayurveda and yoga. You have stated earlier that ayurveda and yoga can "cure" all sorts of diseases and has been around for centuries. If ayurveda and yoga is as good as you say, then it should be better than western medicine. Life expectancy in India should be higher than countries that practice western medicine.
People who are sick but can't afford health care, they turn to what they CAN afford. Yoga, for example. Yet, it's obviously not as good as western medicine. I will stand by opinion and continue to say that yoga is good for you as a healthy part of ones lifestyle, but I still can't support them as a primary healthcare system.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 26 Jun 2010, 09:02

What you have said here is that western medicine is better than ayurveda and yoga. You have stated earlier that ayurveda and yoga can "cure" all sorts of diseases and has been around for centuries. If ayurveda and yoga is as good as you say, then it should be better than western medicine. Life expectancy in India should be higher than countries that practice western medicine.
People who are sick but can't afford health care, they turn to what they CAN afford. Yoga, for example. Yet, it's obviously not as good as western medicine. I will stand by opinion and continue to say that yoga is good for you as a healthy part of ones lifestyle, but I still can't support them as a primary healthcare system.


I have said no such thing and you seem to have completely ignored the entire post. I said that Ayurveda and Yoga have only
recently resurged in popularity in India, they are not at all the primary healthcare system modern India uses. Modern India uses allopathic
medicine.

The life expectancy and other health indices are indicative of the fact it is a developing country today. It says nothing about its traditional
health care system, which as I just pointed out, has only recently become popular again in India. Indian traditional systems were outlawed
by the British 200 years ago. The reason it is a developing country today, when we know it was developed in the past, was due to 300 years
of economic exploitation by the British empire, which lead to a previously rich country becoming very poor. Its industries were taxed into
oblivion, its traditional systems being outlawed lead to Indians become unemployed and unskilled, and as a result they had to resort to unskilled
labour like agriculture. Due to mismanagement several famines took place during British rule, killing of tens of millions of reducing the others to
abject poverty.

The time when Yoga and Ayurveda was flourishing from 3000BCE to 1000AD, India was highly developed. Although we do not have any figures
like life expectancy and health care stats from this era, it is clear Indian people were well-off and healthy, and there was a culture of hygeine.
This evidenced by the fact that it had mass sanitation systems, hospitals and a fully developed health care system, with emphasis on healthy
living and hygine and treatments for all common diseases. In comparison, such systems do not arise in the West till the late medivial age, and
hence why it suffered terrible plauges etc.

A proper valid argument in comparing Western medicine and Ayurveda and Yoga is to look at the efficacy of their treatment. Western medicine
cannot cure arthritis, heart disease, diabetes, cancer and aids. Ayurveda and Yoga can, and I have already posted many articles showing it can.
So hands down Ayurveda and Yoga win. Western medicine is lagging behind.
Indigo Child
 
Posts: 327
Joined: 22 May 2009, 08:01

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron