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What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman ?

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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jun 2010, 23:17

I thought I just posted this, but can't see it so I'll post it again and apologize if it's duplicate.

To be honest, I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.
PETA is an organization, but whether or not I agree with them, there's nothing that says I can't post on their forum (unless it's against their rules), even if it's to tell them they are wrong. One can belong to a forum without being a member of the organization. I'm not a member of the JREF, but I've posted there. SCOPCOP is not an organization, it's just someone who got ticked off at someone else for banning him from the JREF forum and started his own forum to show them. At least, that's what it appears to be... :-)
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby NinjaPuppy » 23 Jun 2010, 23:24

ProfWag wrote:To be honest, I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.

Nice to know it's not just me. :|
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 23 Jun 2010, 23:49

Perhaps to get back to the topic, is this what you're trying to say really? ?
The JREF has a scholarship they give to those who further their education.
The Bigfoot Researchers do not: www.bfro.net
The UFO researchers do not: www.mufon.com
The American Ass. of Psychics do not: http://www.americanassociationofpsychics.com/
The American Federation of Astrologers do not: http://www.astrologers.com/

Is this along the lines of the point you were trying to make?
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 24 Jun 2010, 01:15

To speak out against false claims, products and whatnot. You did read the article I posted right ?
Legalities shmalities this is a forum to express ideas promoting the paranormal. That same philosophy can be extended to not promoting things that don't work or are of questionable value. I hope this is clear now.

Frankly, I don't think the New Age community in whole or part would ever go about exposing fraud. For it would necessarily cause people look seriously at their own ideas and determine what is real and what is not real and come to a consensus and public declaration. That seems impossible when you consider the idea expressed everything's possible.


Dear really?,

This is an organization that critically deals with paranormal research and deals particularly with pseudoskepticism. It is not a religion,
that we should go out there to convince people to our side, or try to change their minds. This complex you guys at JREF have, not
us. I have never felt the need to go onto JREF to try and win the people there to my side. I have never joined a new-age forum
to win people there over to critical thinking. At the end of the day people should be allowed to make up their own minds.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 24 Jun 2010, 02:48

Has any paranormal forum spoken out against things like this https://www.buyirenew.com/?MID=860693
Or did anyone against Airborne http://airbornehealth.com/ BTW this company I think retooled this product to do false claims. Or Sylvia Brown and other questionable persons. Or The Secret. [ I do recall Scepcop saying something about it, but I don't remember whether it was pro or con.] No, I'm not asking that this site model itself after JREF. On any of the paranormal sites I visit I rarely see a concerted organised rally of persons speaking out against unfounded claims I just don't see it. I do on sites that are skeptical. It would be nice though to see some more critical evaluation of claims instead of the 'anythings possible' mantra I here often from the New Age community.
Remember that this forum and site has dedicated itself to true skepticism.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 24 Jun 2010, 03:04

ProfWag wrote:Perhaps to get back to the topic, is this what you're trying to say really? ?
The JREF has a scholarship they give to those who further their education.
The Bigfoot Researchers do not: http://www.bfro.net
The UFO researchers do not: http://www.mufon.com
The American Ass. of Psychics do not: http://www.americanassociationofpsychics.com/
The American Federation of Astrologers do not: http://www.astrologers.com/

Is this along the lines of the point you were trying to make?


Nothing to do with scholarships. You would never see the paranormal community exposed the Quadrotracker, "ADE 561 as a scam. As a whole all ideas, practices, products are welcomed with open arms. In short skeptics do their part to exposed fraud wherever it may be. Shorter still Caveat Emptor. I can't recall the New Age community doing the same or similar.
Last edited by really? on 24 Jun 2010, 03:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 24 Jun 2010, 03:45

NinjaPuppy wrote:
Many people say Yoga cured their arthiritis, or heart disease or parkinsons disease etc. Many people say meditation has made them happier and generally well rounded people.

May I question why you say "cured"? While I totally agree with you that Yoga can 'cure' or eliminate many of the problems associated with these things, it can not cure them.


May I question why you say "cured"? While I totally agree with you that Yoga can 'cure' or eliminate many of the problems associated with these things, it can not cure them.


These diseases are in fact curable. There are many studies showing Yoga, and its sister science Ayurveda can cure many disases that
are consideed uncurable in allopathic medicine, such as diabetes, arthritis, heart disease, parkinsons disease etc

The following shows a clinical study where diabetes is cured:

www.ayurvedam.com/pdf/ayurvdiabetes.pdf

The reason Yoga and Ayurveda work is because they work directly at the level of Prana,
where all disease begins, and as soon as the Prana is freed up and allowed to flow properly,
disease vanishes. The reason allopathic medicine cannot make the claim of curing anything,
is because allopathic medicine works at the level of just body only, and hence only the symptoms
and hence cannot cure anything. The Eastern medicial sciences have a more holistic understanding
of the human body and the etiology of disease.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 24 Jun 2010, 03:52

Really?

Here is a question for you. Why don't skeptics expose multinational companies
and their ties with politics and wars, such as making profits from oil in Iraq and
Afghanistan? Why don't you expose big powerful elite families like Rothchilds and
Rockefellers, or clandestine groups like Bilderbergs which have influence on many
world issues. Why don't you expose the NAFTA, WTO? Why are you guys at JREF
only concerned with Sylvia brown, Uri Geller etc?

I cannot take you guys that seriously because your skepticism is selective.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 24 Jun 2010, 04:17

Indigo Child wrote:Really?

Here is a question for you. Why don't skeptics expose multinational companies
and their ties with politics and wars, such as making profits from oil in Iraq and
Afghanistan? Why don't you expose big powerful elite families like Rothchilds and
Rockefellers, or clandestine groups like Bilderbergs which have influence on many
world issues. Why don't you expose the NAFTA, WTO? Why are you guys at JREF
only concerned with Sylvia brown, Uri Geller etc?

I cannot take you guys that seriously because your skepticism is selective.


Their are persons that do. They are known as investigative reporters. For an individual to do such a thing takes a lot of time more time than they might have.
Indigo Child wrote:Why are you guys at JREF
only concerned with Sylvia brown, Uri Geller etc?

Actually they are not so much go see for yourself. Why would they because they are prominent. Squeaky wheel gets the grease ya know
A list of todays topics with one post about Sylvia Brown.

Schroedingers cat is passe, I need new physics animals ( 1 2 3 )
Obama and the Gay Military... ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Evolution of Venus Temperature & Climate ( 1 2 )
The Brits think Mercury orbits Earth
StopSylvia emails: Wow & You really don't disappoint
Are Prank Calls Illegal or just obnoxious?
PEAK OIL: Going Mainstream ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 )
Sabe tooth cat, bite gape
Why would a World Government be a bad thing? ( 1 2 3 )
100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid (Part 1 of 11) ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Why doesn't God know basic female anatomy? ( 1 2 3 4 )
James Madison Poem
Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
What dippy superstitous habits can't you shake? ( 1 2 3 )
Evidence of God's existence ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
The Case Against "The Case Against Historical Christ" ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
Vagina dentata for South Africa ( 1 2 )
Sunday Sunset in The Valley of Fire
A Visit to 'Pawn Stars' Gold & Silver Pawn Shop in Vegas?
Weird (fun) Synchronicities and Coincidences ( 1 2 )
Non-native English speakers at TAM 8
College/University course requirements in subjects other than major ( 1 2 )
Tim James "Language" Ad
Whooping Cough declared epidemic in California
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 24 Jun 2010, 04:55

Indigo Child wrote:These diseases are in fact curable. There are many studies showing Yoga, and its sister science Ayurveda can cure many disases that
are consideed uncurable in allopathic medicine, such as diabetes, arthritis, heart disease, parkinsons disease etc

The following shows a clinical study where diabetes is cured:

http://www.ayurvedam.com/pdf/ayurvdiabetes.pdf


Thank you for the information Indigo Child. It was informative and appeared to be a valid article from a holistic doctor in India. Though often not subscribed to as standard medicine in the west, I can accept that from you as a valid article.
The point you are wanting to make, it appears, is that yoga and ayurveda can cure “diabetes, arthritis, heart disease, parkinsons disease, etc.” If I am mistaken, please correct me.

I was not aware that yoga or ayurveda could “cure” most anything. As such, I spoke with my wife about the subject. You see, my wife has received extensive training on those subjects from Kripalu. (I’m sure that someone with your knowledge of yoga is aware of Kripalu. If not, please ask.) She was also surprised to hear that yoga could cure Parkinson’s and heart disease. She was ready to call Michael J. Fox to get him to be her student! We both saw dollar signs flash across our eyes, but alas, we quickly returned to normal.

In any event, we both read your journal on diabetes. Again, it was a very interesting read. While reading it however, I kept an eye out for where the good Doctor referred to ayurveda being a “cure” for diabetes. After completing the article, I never saw that word. So, I used the “find” feature on my computer and alas, it didn’t detect the word “cure” either. So, both my wife and I read it again. I asked for her help as she is much more familiar with holistic words than I. What we finally gathered from the article was that the good Doctor from India concluded that 21 out of 30 patients saw great improvement in the diabetes as long as they were not insulin dependent. They were not “cured” as you say, but responded well to “treatment.”

Just 6 months ago, my Doctor told me I was borderline diabetic myself. I had let myself go during the course of several months after the death of my parents. You know what I did after my Dr appt? I reinvigorated myself on yoga, weight training, jogging, a little meditation, and a healthy diet. A couple weeks ago, my blood samples showed I was no longer borderline diabetic. Everything was within range. I never took any drugs, just a healthy lifestyle. That, I can agree with you wholeheartedly, works wonders for many of today’s illnesses.

You see Indigo Child, cure and treat are two different words where I come from. I can provide you the dictionary reference if you need it. Both my wife and I are well aware of the extensive benefits that yoga can provide to a person. Again, I support your opinion on that and will say nothing derogatory about the health benefits of yoga and meditation. However, and unfortunately, yoga and meditation does not “cure” Parkinson’s nor any other of the things you mentioned, yet, it only “treats” them.
Finally, I hope this post was professional in your opinion. I know you have expressed a dislike in discussion with people who misrepresent their point (not that I am accusing you of doing so by using “cure” when you probably meant “treat”), but hopefully my post can make discussion possible.
http://www.webmd.com/balance/tc/ayurveda-topic-overview
http://yoga-health-benefits.blogspot.co ... sease.html
http://www.yogamiracles.com/yoga-articl ... isease.htm
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 24 Jun 2010, 06:49

Thanks Prowag. I familiar with Kripalu Yoga, although not practiced it myself. I have mostly practiced Tantic forms of Yoga. In any case, one of the biggest authorities on Yoga today in India, Baba Ramdev, who teaches Yoga free of cost in camps throughout India and the world, has cured many people of many so-called incurable disease, and he himself says very boldly and confidently that after sustained practice of Yoga all diseases will eventually go.

Now to understand why this is the case is to understand the etiology of disease in Yogic terms, which is because of poor flow of prana. Your wife should be familiar with terms like chakras, nadis and energy blockages. A disease forms when there is a blockage in our pranic body(energy body) Though the practice of yoga asanas(postures) and pranayama(breathing exercises) and bandhas(locks) we work directly on the energy body. After sustained practice, most diseases begin to disappear.

Ayurveda works on a similar but different system, but complementary to Yoga. In Ayurveda we have doshas which are bioenergies in the body, of which there are three types: vata(air), pitta(heat) and kapha(earth) these govern different areas of the body. For example vata governs the nervous system and movement and is found operating in the space in the body; Pitta governs the metabolic processes in the body, such as digestion and the chemical processes and kapha governs muscle and tissue formation. In Ayurvedic etiology, all disease results due to imbalances in the basic dosas. So all Ayurvedic treatment is designed to balance the dosas using various means of treatment, mainly diet and lifestyle regulations, herbal formulations and sometimes metal compound formulations. It also uses spiritual means of medicine such as mantras and music, colours, gem stones.

However, as you may already know, by far the most popular means is herbal medicine. Now in Ayurvedic classification everything can be classified according to the dosas based on their effect on them. This is something Ayurvedic doctors learned through heuristic analysis back in ancient times. So for instance it was noted that cold weather is vata aggrevating, and this means that cold weather can increase stiffness in joints, lead to more anxiety and dryness etc. So in order to treat this, a basic treatment would be keeping yourself warm.

Diseases can also be classified according to the dosas. So for instance, arthiritis is classified as a vata disorder and the Ayurvedic etiology of arthritis is the accumulation of ama(toxins) sticking to the joints carried by vata in the body. In order to treat this then a vata pacfiying diet and lifestyle practices, and herbal formulations would be recommended. In order to get rid of the built up toxins in the body, Ayurveda has a special detox treatment process called Panchakarma(5 step process) where toxins are expunged from the body.

Ayurveda already had classified most diseases we know today thousands of years ago and developed tried and tested treatments for them. This is why it has remarkable efficacy in treating all known diseases we have today, and in many cases it can actually completely cure them.
You see what is lacking in modern medicine(allopathic medicine) is an understanding of the subtle structures in our body such as prana or bioenergies, and hence why it cannot cure most disases. Rather it cures the symptoms
Last edited by Indigo Child on 24 Jun 2010, 07:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby Indigo Child » 24 Jun 2010, 07:08

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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby ProfWag » 24 Jun 2010, 18:23

Indigo Child wrote:Ayurveda and Parkinson's disease:

http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/articles ... /Parkinson

Another very informative article Indigo Child. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that I still didn't see in that article where it says yoga and auyurveda CURES Parkinson's disease. Could you point it out to me please? I've read it twice and I'm just not seeing where the article supports your claim of a cure. I'm hoping it does though!
Thanks
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 24 Jun 2010, 20:33

Indigo Child needs to define what they mean by a cure as there are a number of definitions.

A question that comes to mind, what affects the cure ? Is it a mystical life force known as Prana ? Or is it allopathic administration of chemicals that affect the cure. Two quotes from one of the articles
While the pharmocological actions of specific herbs such as Atmagupta (Mucuna Pruriens) are being found useful,...

According to the Materia Medica of the Hindus, patients treated with Kappikacchu (Mucuna Pruriens) have shown mild side effects which include headache, dystonia (abnormal muscle tone), fatigue, tremors, syncope (fainting) and thirst (8,11). Allopathic administration of L-dopamine can cause abnormal movements of the face (tardive dyskinesia) and limbs (chorea) as well as abnormal muscle tone (dystonia) (1). Unfortunately, the drug appears to decrease in effectiveness over time. Some experts believe that taking L-dopa early in the disease increases the overall progression of the condition and choose to only use the drug later in its course (1).

In this article I see no mention of a prana force as one agent to affect a cure. What I do see mentioned is the use of chemicals and a healthy life style.
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Re: What Have Believers Done to Help there Fellow Man/Woman

Postby really? » 24 Jun 2010, 20:49

Indigo Child needs to define what they mean by a cure as there are a number of definitions.

A question that comes to mind, what affects the cure ? Is it a mystical life force known as Prana ? Or is it allopathic administration of chemicals that affect the cure. Two quotes from one of the articles
While the pharmocological actions of specific herbs such as Atmagupta (Mucuna Pruriens) are being found useful,...

According to the Materia Medica of the Hindus, patients treated with Kappikacchu (Mucuna Pruriens) have shown mild side effects which include headache, dystonia (abnormal muscle tone), fatigue, tremors, syncope (fainting) and thirst (8,11). Allopathic administration of L-dopamine can cause abnormal movements of the face (tardive dyskinesia) and limbs (chorea) as well as abnormal muscle tone (dystonia) (1). Unfortunately, the drug appears to decrease in effectiveness over time. Some experts believe that taking L-dopa early in the disease increases the overall progression of the condition and choose to only use the drug later in its course (1).

In this article I see no mention of a prana force as one agent to affect a cure. Perhaps I missed it for there are words there foreign to me. What I do see mentioned is the use of chemicals and a healthy life style.

I just came across this article from the National Institutes of Health [ NIH] National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine [ NCCAM ]
Study Shows One-Fifth of Internet-Available Ayurvedic Medicines Contain Toxic Metals
Ayurveda is a traditional medical system that originated in India. It aims to integrate and balance the body, mind, and spirit to help prevent illness and promote wellness. Potentially toxic metals sometimes are incorporated in traditional Ayurvedic medicines as part of rasa shastra—a practice which combines herbs with metals, minerals, and gems. While rasa shastra practitioners claim that such medicines are safe if properly prepared, concerns regarding safety from metal intoxication remain. In an NCCAM-funded study, researchers sought to determine how often Ayurvedic medicines sold on the Internet contain detectable levels of lead, mercury, and arsenic. They purchased products manufactured in both India and the United States and examined both rasa shastra and non-rasa shastra (herbal-only) medicines.

Using five different search engines, the researchers found 25 Web sites that sold traditional Ayurvedic herbs, formulas, and ingredients. They identified 673 products and randomly selected 230 for purchase in August–October 2005; 193 of these products were received and tested for the presence of metals.

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/s ... 082808.htm

This does bode well for a healthy life style
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