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Animal Cruelty

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Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 04 Jun 2009, 10:41

I was wondering, Mr. Wu, if we could start an animal anti-cruelty section of this forum. For whatever reasons, (probably not very good reasons) the skeptic movement seems to have taken a somewhat strong stance against the animal rights movement. Episode number 167 of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe had a section that was anti-PETA. More recently - so did P. Z. Myers:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009 ... ghouls.php

I know that this is not a paranormal subject, but neither is bigfoot or homeopathy. There are many different ideas that are harshly condemned by the skeptic movement. If we are going to beat them back, as well as promote open-minded thinking, we need to try to protect as many alternative ideas as possible from the attacks of the skeptic movement.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 05 Jun 2009, 00:42

I'm a vegetarianism and member of PETA, so I sympathize. Yeah it would be a bit out of place here, but as long as it's for a good cause...

How about the Alternative Holistic Treatments board? Threads about animal rights could go under there. Unless you have a lot to say about it.

Maybe we could change that board to "Alternative Health and Holistic Treatments"?

Are you a vegetarian too? Or vegan? I never did understand why milk and eggs are bad for you, since they are in almost everything, if you're a vegan your choices are severely handicapped to almost zero when you go out to eat. Unless you go to the organic health food deli. lol

It is true though that the skeptic movement is against anything alternative, even if it's good and prevents cruelty. They are dogmatic fundamentalists.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 05 Jun 2009, 04:05

Yeah, I'm a vegetarian. I will probably become a vegan eventually. I do believe that it is cruel and possibly painful to milk cows as much as these companies do. While it may not be unhealthy to eat eggs and cheese I believe that it is more healthy to cut them out. Some people disagree with that, though. You're definitely right, though, that it is difficult to be a vegan. You need to live near some moderately-sized city to be able to eat at vegan restaurants. If I find any more examples of skeptics attacking PETA or any other animal rights initiative I'll post it in the section that you said to post it in.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby wraith » 06 Jun 2009, 10:16

On the Issue of animal cruelty, I am a proud meat eater, even though i have some days of vegetarianism. I could agree with PETA on some issues, but I believe that they are just anti-human in general, just like some 'environmentalists'.

What I take issue with is when 'animal rights activists' criticize the way how animals are being treated in China and in East Asian countries, or how dog meat is consumed in China. I believe it is not an animal rights issue when it comes to China and other east Asian countries, but more of a cultural clash between East and West.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 06 Jun 2009, 11:44

Well...nothing wrong with being anti-human, or at least anti-most-humans. We're not exactly the kindest race, after all. You can easily come to that conclusion without even looking at any of the horrendous things that most humans do to animals. There are many different kinds of horrible things that humans do all the time. Maybe we can become better in the future, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there. As far as cultural things go, there are some cultural things that should end. Yes, some eastern cultural things are bad, but so are some more western cultural things, like bullfighting. PETA protests bullfighting, too, as well as many other western cultural things that are harmful to animals.

By the way, please don't put the phrases "animal rights activists" or "environmentalists" in quotations like that. That is the sort of thing that skeptics do. They will write "psi researchers" or "ufologists" in quotations. It's a way of making it look as if the whole subject and the proponents of that subject are not to be taken seriously. It's offensive.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby wraith » 07 Jun 2009, 17:39

antiskeptic wrote:Well...nothing wrong with being anti-human, or at least anti-most-humans. We're not exactly the kindest race, after all. You can easily come to that conclusion without even looking at any of the horrendous things that most humans do to animals. There are many different kinds of horrible things that humans do all the time. Maybe we can become better in the future, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there. As far as cultural things go, there are some cultural things that should end. Yes, some eastern cultural things are bad, but so are some more western cultural things, like bullfighting. PETA protests bullfighting, too, as well as many other western cultural things that are harmful to animals.

By the way, please don't put the phrases "animal rights activists" or "environmentalists" in quotations like that. That is the sort of thing that skeptics do. They will write "psi researchers" or "ufologists" in quotations. It's a way of making it look as if the whole subject and the proponents of that subject are not to be taken seriously. It's offensive.


As for offensiveness, I am not afraid of offending anyone. But I do find it offensive when someone calls me a 'conspiracy theorist in a tin foil hat'. Why do humans have to be kind when re realize that we're much more similar to animals, why should we feel compassionate towards animals when animals kill other animals? Aren't humans similar to animals? I know I may sound like a sceptic, but animal rights is just farfetched and unrealistic as communism.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 08 Jun 2009, 10:18

wraith wrote:On the Issue of animal cruelty, I am a proud meat eater, even though i have some days of vegetarianism. I could agree with PETA on some issues, but I believe that they are just anti-human in general, just like some 'environmentalists'.

What I take issue with is when 'animal rights activists' criticize the way how animals are being treated in China and in East Asian countries, or how dog meat is consumed in China. I believe it is not an animal rights issue when it comes to China and other east Asian countries, but more of a cultural clash between East and West.


Culture clash or not, the bottom line is that cruelty to animals is inhumane and horrible and should be stopped. If you were an animal, would you want to be treated cruelly? I don't see why being a different culture justifies cruelty. In Ancient Babylon, they used to sacrifice babies, it was their culture, does that make it right?

Every hunter I've asked this question to "If you were an animal, would you want to be shot by hunters?" gets avoided. What does that tell you? That these hunters are spiritually evolved? (sarcastic)

When you eat your meat, do you ever ask yourself if you could kill these animals in a slaughterhouse yourself? Could you axe an animal?

I've heard that PETA euphanizes animals, killing them themselves, but I have yet to see proof. Or proof that they are anti-human. It's just someone else's word against theirs. I do not see any "anti human" remarks in their literature though.

I do think though that those people who prefer the company of animals over humans to be a little odd. They must hang out with the wrong people.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 08 Jun 2009, 10:21

wraith wrote:
antiskeptic wrote:Well...nothing wrong with being anti-human, or at least anti-most-humans. We're not exactly the kindest race, after all. You can easily come to that conclusion without even looking at any of the horrendous things that most humans do to animals. There are many different kinds of horrible things that humans do all the time. Maybe we can become better in the future, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there. As far as cultural things go, there are some cultural things that should end. Yes, some eastern cultural things are bad, but so are some more western cultural things, like bullfighting. PETA protests bullfighting, too, as well as many other western cultural things that are harmful to animals.

By the way, please don't put the phrases "animal rights activists" or "environmentalists" in quotations like that. That is the sort of thing that skeptics do. They will write "psi researchers" or "ufologists" in quotations. It's a way of making it look as if the whole subject and the proponents of that subject are not to be taken seriously. It's offensive.


As for offensiveness, I am not afraid of offending anyone. But I do find it offensive when someone calls me a 'conspiracy theorist in a tin foil hat'. Why do humans have to be kind when re realize that we're much more similar to animals, why should we feel compassionate towards animals when animals kill other animals? Aren't humans similar to animals? I know I may sound like a sceptic, but animal rights is just farfetched and unrealistic as communism.


Lions and tigers cannot think independently. They follow their nature. Humans can. We are a higher level of consciousness and therefore capable of choosing compassion. Being a vegetarian elevates your spiritual energy as well. Meat eaters tend to be focused on lower energies and chakras. That's why vegetarians have a different vibe. They also tend to look younger too.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 08 Jun 2009, 10:24

antiskeptic wrote:Well...nothing wrong with being anti-human, or at least anti-most-humans. We're not exactly the kindest race, after all. You can easily come to that conclusion without even looking at any of the horrendous things that most humans do to animals. There are many different kinds of horrible things that humans do all the time. Maybe we can become better in the future, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there. As far as cultural things go, there are some cultural things that should end. Yes, some eastern cultural things are bad, but so are some more western cultural things, like bullfighting. PETA protests bullfighting, too, as well as many other western cultural things that are harmful to animals.

By the way, please don't put the phrases "animal rights activists" or "environmentalists" in quotations like that. That is the sort of thing that skeptics do. They will write "psi researchers" or "ufologists" in quotations. It's a way of making it look as if the whole subject and the proponents of that subject are not to be taken seriously. It's offensive.


There are many kind humans, everywhere, all around me. It's just that the media only reports the terrible ones, making the world and society look like a terrible place. It's all to keep you living in fear and easy to control. It's all hogwash. The reality I see in real life never matches what I hear in the media. That's why I never watch the news. Most of it is useless and inapplicable to real life, just a lot of fear and mind control.

There are humans of all kinds though, so we shouldn't lump them in to one group. The bad apples do not represent the rest.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 08 Jun 2009, 10:59

Scepcop wrote:There are many kind humans, everywhere, all around me. It's just that the media only reports the terrible ones, making the world and society look like a terrible place. It's all to keep you living in fear and easy to control. It's all hogwash. The reality I see in real life never matches what I hear in the media. That's why I never watch the news. Most of it is useless and inapplicable to real life, just a lot of fear and mind control.

There are humans of all kinds though, so we shouldn't lump them in to one group. The bad apples do not represent the rest.


Yeah, I agree with most of that. I do not believe in lumping all humans into one group. (unless it is accurate - but it rarely is) I do believe that there are good people, and I certainly do not trust most of what the media organizations tell me. I just believe that most people are evil in nature. I mean, even some of the evil people might be able to change, and there might be more progress in the future with respect to increasing the number of moral people, but, at least for now, I believe that most people currently on this planet are evil. The fact that we have not made more progress, by now, in the realm of animal rights is pretty good evidence of this, for starters.

As for wraith, I think that we should all be more concerned about being offensive. It's one of the things that we can do to make the human race less evil, overall. By the way, things like animal rights and communism are only unrealistic if too many people believe that they are unrealistic...
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 08 Jun 2009, 11:34

antiskeptic wrote:
Scepcop wrote:There are many kind humans, everywhere, all around me. It's just that the media only reports the terrible ones, making the world and society look like a terrible place. It's all to keep you living in fear and easy to control. It's all hogwash. The reality I see in real life never matches what I hear in the media. That's why I never watch the news. Most of it is useless and inapplicable to real life, just a lot of fear and mind control.

There are humans of all kinds though, so we shouldn't lump them in to one group. The bad apples do not represent the rest.


Yeah, I agree with most of that. I do not believe in lumping all humans into one group. (unless it is accurate - but it rarely is) I do believe that there are good people, and I certainly do not trust most of what the media organizations tell me. I just believe that most people are evil in nature. I mean, even some of the evil people might be able to change, and there might be more progress in the future with respect to increasing the number of moral people, but, at least for now, I believe that most people currently on this planet are evil. The fact that we have not made more progress, by now, in the realm of animal rights is pretty good evidence of this, for starters.

As for wraith, I think that we should all be more concerned about being offensive. It's one of the things that we can do to make the human race less evil, overall. By the way, things like animal rights and communism are only unrealistic if too many people believe that they are unrealistic...


In what way do you feel that most people are evil? Where did you grow up? Environment has a lot to do with it too, as different places can often be different worlds. If you drive through the border between San Diego and Tijuana, Mexico, for example, you will see completely different worlds, next to each other, separated by a 30 minute drive.

I think it's Hollywood that likes to lump people into groups of good and evil. In reality, it's more complex. Most people are a combination of good and bad traits, a mixture. Very few are true angels or devils.

But I do feel that many if not most are hypocrites. They condemn bad traits in others while pretending to be angels themselves. Very few will admit their own faults.

I would definitely say that most people are selfish though, and primarily looking out for themselves. Whether that is evil or not, is subjective. Many are also apathetic.

I would also say that most people are judgmental and jump to conclusions rashly, especially negative ones. They are quick to believe the worst, which is why bad news sells. That is a very common trait, one that I try to avoid.

Most people are also conformists to their culture, they don't think for themselves or outside the box. Some think they do, but they don't. They will even miss the obvious, if it's outside their paradigm.

I would not agree that being offensive is "evil". I think it depends on your motive. Sometimes truth offends people, and in that case, do you state the truth anyway or keep silence out of fear of offending others? It really depends on the situation and who you are around. If you are a guest in a house, and the food is bad, there is no point in stating that the food is bad because it may be offensive and harm social relations, unless the host is close to you and you feel comfortable being honest with him/her. It also depends on how important the truth is. In some countries, like in Asia, harmony is more important than truth, so if the truth upsets harmony, then the truth is of lesser importance and should be suppressed or not be said at all.

But this is a truth seeking website and forum, and so truth should be placed above the fear of offending others. Don't you think?

It's one thing to personally attack and insult people without cause. But it's another to state factual statements or observations that might offend others. It also depends on your motive. If your motive is hate, then that is a bad thing. For example, if you go up to someone who is fat and ugly and tell them, "You are fat and ugly" that may be your honest opinion, but what good will come out of that? Nothing of course.

But if you are motivated by a just cause, then that's another matter. Sometimes truth offends, and in group situations or public situations, people are very careful not to offend others. But it's easy on the internet to just type out whatever you think, because there is no one in front of you that you have to "humor".

There are many truths, not just in the paranormal, but in society as well, that are considered taboo to speak about. For example, there are many double standards between how the sexes and races are treated in America. We all know about them, but to point them out is anathema and offensive, yet they are true. Double standards exist everywhere and are normal, but pointing them out isn't. Things like that are my pet peeves, when you can't state the obvious because to do so would be abnormal. When I was in Taiwan for instance, I noticed that hardly anyone had the desire to enjoy life, their only interest was in working and making money and in eating. Anything else was empty and meaningless to them. This is very true, but no one dares complain about it because it's considered normal there, and anyone who complains is being rude. Very few will dare voice such opinions publicly, but among close friends they will.

The truth is the truth, and to me is the highest ideal.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 08 Jun 2009, 12:36

Well, I think that most people are evil because of the selfishness. I know that selfishness is not always evil, but most people are selfish in ways that are evil. The fact that most people will not even be bothered to buy their shoes from a vegan source like veganstore.com is very evil. I mean, they're just shoes, for god's sake - it's not like there is a huge advantage to having shoes that come from animal flesh. Even with the ease of the internet most people don't even want to put the minimal effort forward to make sure that they are buying in a moral manner. It would be inconvenient, so they put their selfish want to not be inconvenienced above their want to do what's right.

I agree that sometimes you have to be offensive to tell the truth, and those times are okay with me. What bothers me is when people are offensive for no good reason.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Scepcop » 10 Jun 2009, 07:31

Well I don't think most people can afford shoes from veganstore.com. When they buy shoes, they only think of looks, style and comfort, not about whether they are leather or not. There are shoes that look like leather but aren't. Most people just do not think about the bigger picture. They only focus on the narrow picture of their lives and how they were conditioned to think by their society, family and peers.

Speaking of selfishness, you have to look out for yourself to some degree. But it depends on what you want. Most people live for themselves and feel a responsibility to do what's best for them, at least in Western Culture.

What do you think of those who are so selfless that they won't do anything for themselves or enjoy any pleasure at all, but only care about others? Society considers them to be admirable and even heros. But I sure wouldn't want to be them.

A person should be balanced, not in one extreme or another, I think.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby antiskeptic » 12 Jun 2009, 10:32

Well, whether or not someone can afford the shoes is not the reason why they do not buy them. They don't buy them because it is inconvenient - and not fashionable. If it was convenient and fashionable, then most people would buy them and the price would drop like a ton of bricks. I will certainly agree that a big part of the reasoning as to why most people are evil is because "Most people just do not think about the bigger picture. They only focus on the narrow picture of their lives and how they were conditioned to think by their society, family and peers." Most people either do not have the desire or the intelligence (or both) to break free of the chains of their previous conditioning. I'll also agree that a certain amount of selfishness is okay, but not nearly the level that most people in our society exhibit.
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Re: Animal Cruelty

Postby Nostradamus » 16 Nov 2009, 10:50

There are humans of all kinds though, so we shouldn't lump them in to one group. The bad apples do not represent the rest.


I heartily agree Scepcop.
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