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Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't explain

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Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't explain

Postby Scepcop » 13 Jan 2012, 03:54

Check out this Discovery Channel documentary about 3 compelling cases of reincarnation. It's very jaw dropping. No skeptic can debunk them. They will make you a believer. I was spell-bound when I saw this. See all 5 parts and you will be amazed afterward for sure!

Part 1 of 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz-fOKoehX8
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Jayhawker30 » 13 Jan 2012, 20:47

Aww man... do I really have to do this living shit again?
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby ProfWag » 13 Jan 2012, 21:37

Scepcop, in your own words, what makes you think they are paranormal events?
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Craig Browning » 14 Jan 2012, 02:38

I'm a very strong believer in reincarnation because of several personal situations in which past life connections proved to be exceptionally solid. I'm likewise familiar with studies with young people who have very uncanny recollection of places, things and even languages they've never been exposed to in their current life and how such recall tends to exist up until around ages 6 and 7, rarely surviving puberty. . . at least not in as vivid a form as it does prior to "lost innocence". That is not to say that adults don't get flashes or find connections to things that "remind them" in that such is quite common. But very few adults have the ability to make the connections children do. The other uncanny thing here is that these children are frequently seen as prodigies, a high percentage of them having exceptional high IQ levels and typically one major skill such as mathematics, playing an instrument or vivid memory.

I'd be very hard pressed to find a reason to not believe in this "law of necessity". When it comes to spirituality Reincarnation & Karma make the most sense.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Arouet » 14 Jan 2012, 05:19

At least Scepcop has chanced upon a real researcher in the field, Jim Tucker, who took over Ian Stevenson's work at the university of virginia. But it''d be much better to discuss one of his actual papers rather than a youtube video.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Arouet » 14 Jan 2012, 05:21

It's a hard topic to really evaluate though, since really the research is more about going and interviewing people than doing a controlled experiment. It's hard to evaluate since we're basically forced to take people's word for a lot of stuff.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby ProfWag » 14 Jan 2012, 06:04

Can someone believe in reincarnation, but not God? Or, vice versa?
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Arouet » 14 Jan 2012, 07:06

It's a good question, and one that I've brought up before. It seems to me that at least there would need to be some sort of celestial bureaucracy tasked with assigned souls to bodies. Some sort of coordination would be required. Unless we presume that when a fetus is conceived all the souls are somehow attracted to it and they fight to get through like sperm finding an egg!
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby plodsie » 14 Jan 2012, 12:56

Arouet wrote:It's a hard topic to really evaluate though, since really the research is more about going and interviewing people than doing a controlled experiment. It's hard to evaluate since we're basically forced to take people's word for a lot of stuff.



Evaluation should be part of the experiment too though Arouet, as the reason for the experiment taking place. But how would you go about measuring and what controls would you have in place?
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Craig Browning » 15 Jan 2012, 01:56

ProfWag wrote:Can someone believe in reincarnation, but not God? Or, vice versa?


ABSOLUTELY!

God doesn't usually fit into the Reincarnation idea; I say "usually" in that certain traditions do include a deity or two, including the ancient Jewish traditions (prior to the Spanish Inquisition) and of course, the original teachings credited Jesus (the Jewish kid that blended Buddhism with Judaism and sewed the seeds for a new cult).

The essence, theologically speaking, of reincarnation is spiritual evolution and over millennia of lifetimes, one becomes AS God -- your ultimate "higher" self.

People that Believe in God but Not Reincarnation are best known as Christians who adopted the idea of a one-way ticket to heaven or hell sometime in the mid-5th century c.e. during the Councils at Constantinople. This is also when the orthodoxy established the practice of buying sacred pardons from god by way of cash, a rather convenient policy that allowed the still growing church to grease the hands of politicians and of course, equip an army -- literally!
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Scepcop » 16 Jan 2012, 20:25

ProfWag wrote:Scepcop, in your own words, what makes you think they are paranormal events?


I don't think anything. But if you watch the documentary and events, they are clearly VERY compelling in support of reincarnation. No other explanation accounts for the cases. I told you, don't comment on a thread about a video unless you watch it first. It's only 40 minutes and is not a conspiracy documentary, so you should have no problem stomaching it. Come on now.

In the documentary, they interviewed skeptic Richard Wiseman, but he could not explain away any of the cases. All he could do was give a banter about implanting memories in others, but could not explain any of the events in the cases.

Just watch it please. You said you were open minded. So watch it! And your jaw will drop. Two of the cases are from America and one is from India. Surely these families and children could not be conspiring all this or making it up.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Scepcop » 16 Jan 2012, 20:29

Arouet wrote:At least Scepcop has chanced upon a real researcher in the field, Jim Tucker, who took over Ian Stevenson's work at the university of virginia. But it''d be much better to discuss one of his actual papers rather than a youtube video.


Yes. But why are you preoccupied with papers? Just watch the video and listen to the families of the reincarnated children tell their story in their own words. Isn't that the most compelling and genuine evidence of all?

Yeah it's hard to evaluate this stuff scientifically. But there is no reason to suspect that the families and children are lying or conspiring.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Scepcop » 16 Jan 2012, 20:48

Arouet wrote:It's a good question, and one that I've brought up before. It seems to me that at least there would need to be some sort of celestial bureaucracy tasked with assigned souls to bodies. Some sort of coordination would be required. Unless we presume that when a fetus is conceived all the souls are somehow attracted to it and they fight to get through like sperm finding an egg!


That's a good point. I guess you don't need to believe in God to believe in reincarnation or anything spiritual for that matter. There could be beings on a higher plane or entities, but not necessarily a "God" in the Judeo-Christian sense who is all powerful and all knowing. Reality is probably more complicated than that.

But there are logistical problems with reincarnation. Let's suppose it's true. Then there would be other problems:

1. Why do some have past life memories, but most don't? Do only some reincarnate but not others?

2. What if a fetus is born, but no "souls" want to enter it? Then what?

3. Wouldn't all souls want to be born into beautiful rich families with a good life? Who would choose to be born in a war-torn country in poverty? Do souls even get a choice? If not, then who chooses? Some intelligent forces or random ones?

4. Since the world population 30 years ago was half of what it is today, where do all the "extra souls" come from? Are they new souls? Are they souls from other planets or dimensions? Or from animals and insects? If from animals and insects, then where are the souls replenishing the evolving ones coming from? Is there a first life? Or does our past have no beginning?

A lot of reincarnation believers use the "souls coming from other planets/dimensions" explanation, but that sounds like a convenient copout since anyone can just say that. But even if we take that explanation, then where are the souls replacing the migrating souls coming from? Wouldn't there have to be new souls entering in at some point, unless the population of souls always remained the same?

5. Since there are far more insects and plants then humans and animals, then would that mean that in your next life, your chances of coming back as an insect or plant are far infinitely greater than coming back as a human? If so, then no one would look forward to their "next life" would they? Or do humans only reincarnate as other humans or higher? Can an animal reincarnate as a human? If so, then couldn't it work the other way around? Buddhists believe so, but then again, you'd have the logistical problems above.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jan 2012, 21:58

Scepcop wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Scepcop, in your own words, what makes you think they are paranormal events?


I don't think anything. But if you watch the documentary and events, they are clearly VERY compelling in support of reincarnation. No other explanation accounts for the cases. I told you, don't comment on a thread about a video unless you watch it first. It's only 40 minutes and is not a conspiracy documentary, so you should have no problem stomaching it. Come on now.

See, that's the issue here. How can we discuss anyting if you don't give a damn about the actual content? Why post it if you don't want to discuss and share your views on it? I watched it. Now, if you are such a "freethinker," please tell us what you think of the video and why it's so compelling to you. You've asked me to spend 40 minues watching a video. Fine (though I had already seen it). Now all I'm asking is for you to spend 10 minutes spelling out your thoughts on why you think it can't be explained. Do you really think that this is undeniably paranormal? If so, why? If not, why not? I'm not asking for near as much as what you're asking of me Winston.
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Re: 3 Cases of Reincarnation that skeptics can't debunk!

Postby Craig Browning » 16 Jan 2012, 22:43

Arouet wrote:It's a good question, and one that I've brought up before. It seems to me that at least there would need to be some sort of celestial bureaucracy tasked with assigned souls to bodies. Some sort of coordination would be required. Unless we presume that when a fetus is conceived all the souls are somehow attracted to it and they fight to get through like sperm finding an egg!


:oops: Oops! I didn't see this earlier

There is a "bureaucracy" of sorts, more akin to a "school" in most traditions but I'll try to give you a general outline to things;

Firstly, we all have two Guardian entities the guide & work with us; a Master Teacher and Master Guide. There may be familial entities that attach themselves to us as well, but these are the primary "managers" or "case workers"

Secondly, the whole recycling process typically envelops a 150-200 solar year time span though there are three key exceptions to this rule;
    a.) Master Spirits That Return for a Final Incarnation i.e. Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc.
    b.) Unsettled Souls that Return in Order to Complete Certain Tasks
    c.) Immature Souls that Refuse to Return to the Well of Souls for Education & Mapping prior to Rebirth

Those that have learned and gotten a bit tired of the harder life affects for doing quick turn-arounds will find themselves with their Guides & Teachers reviewing the most recent lifetime first, so as to better understand both, lessons that were learned as well as those we failed to learn alongside new talents, progression and so forth. This information is then taken into account, compiled with whatever karma (good & bad) we may have from other lives and then correlated with other entities, places and things we share karma with. This is how a child can be born into a family and have memory of when their own mother was a child and her quirks, but such things are rare. What isn't rare is the issue of "soul mates" which has little to nothing to do with "love" and wild romance and everything to do with everyone we've have close relationships (good & bad) with in life and how that connection will be defined in the new lives the two of you will be sharing the next time around, it's not just you (a single soul) that's being recycled and as such things must be mapped out.

But What About Free Will?

The Life-Map we're talking about is quite fluid with "destiny" being something carved into wet cement at best; that is to say if you must, due to karmic obligations, meet a certain person or have a particular type of experience at a specific point in your life, you will. More than not however, the elements on these life-maps deal with your talents, personality type, health, race, economic and education status and so forth. There are however, several maps; think of it as being the three tiered Chess Board from Star Trek, you can make moves that take you to any other level where you may stay for a while until something moves you to another path. Each path has it's own set of rules, lessons, etc. and all paths meander across one another in order to give us the opportunity to change directions. . . but only so many times before things become "fixed", which is a spiritual, emotional and physical reality. Look at how yourself and others you know become more and more rigid in your views and thinking the older you get and too, how much more difficult it is for persons over 45, to develop new skills.

KARMA is the micro-manager to it all -- THE LAW and in many cultures it is seen as The Law of Necessity in that it has only one single purpose, to keep all things in the Universe BALANCED yet, in motion. When creating these various life-maps you and your guides look at your Karma Bank Account and look at ways of bringing balance; it's not a positive & negative thing as much as it is about "lessons" that allow us to find serenity and higher-consciousness over time a.k.a. returning to God or Nirvana. Karma is what allows us to retain certain skills & talents such as an aptitude for music, math or even science amongst other things. It likewise influences the gender, race, nationality, culture, etc. that we will be born into; if you were a bigot and abusive to children and females in one life you would be born as an abused female of the race you loathed and know abuse throughout your childhood as well. A rapist would become the raped, a killer would be killed and the kicker is, the person that brings this return to us is the soul-entity (entities) we hurt in that previous life-time UNLESS, the two of you recognize one another and elect to change that loop -- the cycle of enacting the original "sin".

I've actually seen such things happen a few times, one instance involving my ex who happened onto a man -- a total stranger -- that walked up to her and said, "I'm sorry, I was a soldier doing my job" Marcy knew instantly who he was because of a long-held memory of another lifetime when swordsmen raided her family farm, murdering everyone there. There are other examples of this but we needn't get into them. However, Marcy and this gent ended up good friends in this life.

According to many, the soul must complete a series of lessons over the course of 5 key lifetimes per level of spiritual evolution and through this cycle of 5 incarnations you would be affected on the gender level as well as sexual identity, literally being born once each as a pure Heterosexual male/female but likewise hosting two lifetimes as being a male/female homosexual and the final incarnation either Bi-sexual or Androgynous/Hermaphrodite (though most mature souls tend to be totally A-sexual). The reason for this is so you learn to understand your primary karmic lessons from all points of view and if you succeed you graduate to the next level of consciousness and start all over again.

I'm not of the belief that we come back as a lower species such as is common to Buddhism and Hinduism, I think we tend to stay the same species for a number of incarnations and as the soul itself evolves so does the body, moving up the food chain, so to speak. I'm certain there are chosen exceptions to this rule such as "Step Ins" that return as a dog or horse or whatever someone in their first life needs in order to help them through certain things, the goal is to become that person's companion. . . Hollywood has made many a film based on this premise.

Anywho, that's the general summation on things. ;)
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