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JFK 50TH Anniversary

Discuss Conspiracies and Cover Ups - e.g. 9/11 Truth, JFK Assassination, New World Order, Roswell, Moon Hoax, Secret Societies, etc. whatever conspiracy floats your boat.

Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby ProfWag » 28 Aug 2014, 19:26

Or, it could be that LHO plotted it and acted alone as it seems that's the only plausible explanation that answers all the questions. Just sayin'...
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 29 Aug 2014, 18:41

ProfWag wrote:Or, it could be that LHO plotted it and acted alone as it seems that's the only plausible explanation that answers all the questions. Just sayin'...

How is it possibly plausible? Given that it goes against the full body of evidence completely? How does it answer the question of the missing Mauser from the 6th floor? How does it answer the question of the completely rusted out Mannlicher rifle with misaligned sights that could not have been used? Or that LHO was holding an entirely different rifle in some suspicious photos taken at an earlier date? How does it answer the question of Mac Wallace's fingerprint being found on a box there with a 32 point match, a known murderer and henchman of LBJ? Why did LBJ behave suspiciously that day, diving to the floor of the car before anyone knew what was happening in the Plaza? Why did LBJ insist so strenuously to JFK that he go to Dallas? His mistress reported him saying the day before that 'after tomorrow JFK won't be around to embarrass me any more'. How could LHO have known JFK was coming to Dallas, known about a last minute route change through Dealey Plaza, and gotten himself a job 6 weeks overlooking the Plaza prior, before anyone knew about the proposed trip and the route change, without having access to information confidential to the White House, and in fact information that formally was not known to JFK's team itself until later?

Further, there is another massive smoking gun revealed by Winston's question above -- supposedly JFK asked for the top to be taken off the limo, according to a remark made by Edgar Hoover in a recorded conversation with LBJ. However, if the limo roof was on, LHO clearly would not have been able to hit the president and ensure a kill, nor would any other planted assassin. Clearly the thing was a setup, there is no way LHO could have anticipated that JFK was going to go through Dealey Plaza (a last minute route change) and assume the roof would be off the car ensuring any kind of a shot, as that would normally not be expected. Also, as noted several times already, there was no way for LHO to hear about the last minute route change and then travel back in time to pick up a job at the book depository where would be able to get to the 6th floor and get a view of the motorcade. There is evidence from others placing him on the 2nd floor lunch room at the time, and a near complete impossibility for him to have been able to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor under any circumstances, not be out of breath, not be behaving unusually having just killed someone for the first time, and the POTUS at that, not be seen by witnesses who were known to be in the stairwell at the time, and to have pulled a Coke from a dispensing machine, have opened it and be drinking it. He also seems to have procured 2 extra rifles in his time, a second longer 40" Mannlicher (which had not been fired in months and might not even work, let alone be accurate) and a Mauser, neither of which there is any investigated trail of purchase records for. Interestingly, a woman has come forward in recent times and declared she and others saw a couple of guys racing out of the back of the TSBD building right after the shooting, but never said anything at the time as she had a family and was justifiably afraid to come forward.

Hence, profwag is going against all the evidence in his assertions, and yet saying it is the only plausible answer? It has to be the most implausible. Profwag's preferred explanation requires time travel, and the ability to teleport 4 floors instantaneously, or for someone to be in 2 places at once, amongst other things. A highly plausible explanation indeed.

Profwag's assertions so far have reached a trolling level of gainsaying others' well made arguments, apparently as a calculated and deliberate disinfo campaign. This is the guy who said modern guns don't give off any smoke as one of his key arguments. His other arguments so far withstand scrutiny just as poorly.
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 31 Aug 2014, 10:16

Some more interesting commentary on the impossible chain of custody of LHO even receiving a mail order Mannlicher under the false name A Hidell. I've posted similar remarks before, but the evidence is examined here quite well once again. It is necessary to visit the webpage and read it in its entirety for the full treatment of the other failed planks of evidence.

In particular,

The case against Lee Harvey Oswald depends entirely upon establishing a solid chain of evidence that links him to the Mannlicher Carcano dispatched by Klein's to the order of A. Hidell and places him (Oswald) on the 6th floor of the TSBD with that weapon at 12.30 PM on November 22nd 1963. It will become clear that no such chain of evidence exists.


On 13th March 1963, Klein's received an envelope containing a small order slip clipped from their full-page advert in the February issue of American Rifleman. Mr A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas, had enclosed a US Postal Money Order no. 2,202,130,462 to the value of $21.45 in payment for one Mannlicher Carcano 6.5MM Carbine with scope as advertised with reference no. C20-T750 priced at $19.95 with an additional $1.50 postage and handling. Though the advert offered ammunition and a clip as added extras Mr Hidell did not order either.

On March 20th 1963, Klein's dispatched a Mannlicher Carcano, apparently bearing the serial no. C2766, to the order of Mr Hidell. whose postal address was P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas.

The case against Lee Harvey Oswald depends entirely upon establishing a solid chain of evidence that links him to the Mannlicher Carcano dispatched by Klein's to the order of A. Hidell and places him (Oswald) on the 6th floor of the TSBD with that weapon at 12.30 PM on November 22nd 1963. It will become clear that no such chain of evidence exists.

Lee Harvey Oswald rented Dallas Post Box 2915 on October 9th 1962 using his own name. Effectively the address A. Hidell, PO Box 2915 never existed. In order to rent a post box, Oswald was required to fill out Form 1093 (Application for Post Office Box). This was a multi-part form. Part 3 of the application form included a section where the applicant could nominate other persons authorized to collect mail from that particular box. Harry D. Holmes, Dallas Postal Inspector, told the WC that:

"Form 1093 includes a place for name of person entitled to receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself."

The ability of Lee Harvey Oswald to collect a package addressed to A. Hidell at Post Box 2915 depends entirely upon A. Hidell being listed as an authorized person in Part 3 of Oswald's application. It should have been an easy matter to verify this by reference to Part 3 of Oswald's application but, as Postal Inspector Harry Holmes told the WC, Part 3 had been destroyed:

"...when the box has been closed, Postal Regulations require that they tear off Part 3 and throw it away."

Box 2915 had been closed by Oswald on May 14th 1963.

Fortunately, Postal Inspector Holmes is not the final authority on Postal Regulations. The Postal Manual, Section 846.53b, states quite unequivocally that "Part 3 of the box rental application, identifying persons other than the applicant authorized to receive mail must be retained for 2 years after the box is closed."

Harry D. Holmes lied about postal procedures and the WC accepted that lie as fact.

A week after the assassination Harry D. Holmes was quoted in a New York Times article where he stated:

"No one other than Oswald was authorized to receive mail at that box".

Holmes could not have made this statement unless he had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form after the assassination.

Further confirmation that Part 3 of Oswald's application form existed after the assassination and that A. Hidell was not an authorized nominee can be found in the Warren Report (WR). To refute claims made by writer Thomas G. Buchanan in his book "Who Killed Kennedy?", the FBI produced a document that specifically addressed 32 different allegations made by Buchanan. Published in the WR, this document CE 2585, contained the following:

12. CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell.

INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas.

As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination.

It cannot be stated strongly enough that Part 3 of Oswald's application form is the one document that underpins the entire chain of evidence linking Oswald to the Carcano and the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. If A. Hidell was authorized to collect mail at Post Box 2915, then Oswald could have taken delivery of the Carcano by masquerading as Hidell. If A. Hidell was not authorized to collect mail at that box then Oswald would not have been able to take delivery of the Carcano package.

In practice, when the Carcano package addressed to A. Hidell at Box 2915, was received Post Office staff would have checked the appropriate documentation. They would have noted that Box 2915 was rented in the name of Oswald and that A. Hidell was not authorized to collect mail. An additional check may have been made to establish if A. Hidell was a previous renter of Box 2915 who had left a forwarding address. In the event that these checks proved negative the Carcano package would have been returned to sender.

Even exercising great generosity of spirit it is difficult to see any explanation for the destruction of Part 3 of the Oswald application form other than to sustain a false chain of evidence. The WC accepted as fact the sworn testimony of Harry D. Holmes that Part 3 of the form had been destroyed legitimately in line with Postal Regulations. In addition, they allowed Holmes to create a false mechanism by which Oswald could still have collected the Carcano package. This was typical of the "belts and braces" approach the WC used to cover all angles.

Holmes claimed that when a package was received, a notice would be placed in the relevant box to advise the holder that a package was waiting to be collected. This would be done, Holmes claimed, regardless of who the package was addressed to, authorized or not. Thereafter, the holder of the box would only have to produce the notice at the collection window to take delivery of the package. Possession of the notice was deemed to be proof of entitlement.

This is how the WC created the foundations of the chain of evidence linking Oswald to the Carcano. It is ironic that the WR could publish the testimony of Holmes claiming that Part 3 of Oswald's application form had been destroyed and the FBI document, CE 2585, proving it had not.

All evidence is not equal and in seeking to take a view it is necessary to decide what weight can be placed on any particular piece of evidence. The evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald could not have taken delivery of the Carcano package by any known official means is very strong indeed. It is strengthened even more by the knowledge that Harry D. Holmes offered perjured testimony and that a crucial piece of evidence, Part 3 of the Oswald's application form, was destroyed during the post-assassination period.

I think the only plausible interpretation of the facts is that Oswald could not, and did not, take possession of the Carcano package. To sustain the illusion that Oswald did collect the Carcano package, vital evidence was destroyed and additional evidence was fabricated.

The Post Box evidence is not the only evidence the WR offers to link Oswald to the Carcano. Other evidence includes the infamous "backyard photographs", the testimony of the DeMohrenschildts and Marina Oswald, the mysterious contents of the brown paper bag Oswald is alleged to have carried into the TSBD on the day of the assassination, the analysis of the handwriting on the Klein's order slip and the apparent linkage between Oswald and the A. Hidell alias.


These last items are also covered in the treatment, as per the link below. In sum,

The totality of the evidence surrounding the assassination strongly suggests that Oswald was offered up as a scapegoat by the investigative and intelligence community. There is no doubt that important evidence was tampered with or even destroyed. Witnesses were ignored or "persuaded" to modify their evidence. Oswald was characterized as a disaffected and feckless loner when the known facts point more to a young man who was intelligent, thoughtful and probably an intelligence operative.


http://www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 31 Aug 2014, 21:16

hmm, turns out there's evidence of a 3rd rifle, a 30.06 Johnson semi-automatic rifle, AND a shell was picked up in Dealey Plaza matching the 7.65 Mauser and destroyed, with the record thereof only being released in 1995. There is also a problem with an ammo clip that keeps coming and going between photos which also has some serious implications. The CIA also emphatically stated later that it was a Mauser, and that descriptions of a Mannlicher were in error, only for it to finally become a Mannlicher for the WC with no mention of the other two rifles found that day. Jim Garrison produced FBI photos clearly showing the 30.06 Johnson semi-automatic rifle also, which had its own line of provenance back to a PI in California who had given the rifle to a group of men a week earlier. I can only assume Profwag would be well aware of all this evidence, having researched the events of the day as deeply as he says he has. Or does he ignore all the photo evidence and other records and simply keep returning to the whitewashed stuff at the end of the WC process as his main source of guidance? The burden of proof is now on Profwag to disprove or explain away the official evidence of the Mauser, the Mauser shell, and the Johnson semi-automatic all found at the TSBD or very close by on the day.

The Warren Commission claimed that Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano was the only weapon involved in the assassination. Ammunition for the rifle was known to be faulty and rarely shot straight. Gun experts that testified in front of the Warren Commission characterized the Carcano as a cheap, old weapon that was poorly constructed; a rifle that could be purchased for three dollars each in lots of 25. On the day the rifle was found, the firing pin was found to be defective or worn-out, [6] the telescopic sight was not accurately sighted, and no ammunition clip was officially reported. An ammunition clip would require a shooter to hand-load cartridges. Without an ammunition clip, rapid fire would be impossible. No reference was ever made to the clip in the original inventories of evidence. Only when the Warren Report was released was there any report that an ammunition clip was found. [My note: note that the A Hidell order from Klein's for the non-existent 36" Mannlicher did not include the optional addition of a clip or ammunition. Without a clip each bullet would need to be loaded separately by hand between shots.] The rifle was found tightly wedged within a stack of books, a task that would seem to require more than a few seconds. It was so deeply hidden in the boxes that one of the Dallas sheriffs claimed that searchers could have walked right by it and not noticed it.

When Oswald was given a paraffin test to see if he had fired a rifle that day, the test showed that there was no trace of nitrates on his cheek. Nitrates produced from a discharged rifle could possibly be found on the cheek of anyone who had fired a rifle, but the Dallas police couldn't find any. [My note: there was evidence of nitrates on his hands, but it appears LHO had been 'tasked' to move some guns around that day, believing he was a valuable intelligence operative, and not about to be set up as a patsy.] Lt. Day claimed he lifted prints located around the trigger housing of the Mannlicher-Carcano but was not able to identify them as Oswald's. He was able to lift a palm print under the stock and identify it as Oswald's. Day claims he told FBI agent Vince Drain of the palm print. Drain said he was never told of the print and Day responded in a 1993 interview with "I guess he didn't hear me, but I told him." [10] The FBI never identified the palm print but was able to find several prints of one of its FBI agents, who was subsequently suspended from duty for mishandling the evidence. [My note: it is assumed that LHO palmprint was planted later by the FBI from LHO's corpse to make the story fit]

An additional twist to the ordering of the Mannlicher-Carcano is being investigated by Assassination Chronicles senior editor George Michael Evica. In January of 1963, Senator Thomas Dodd held committee hearings on the unrestricted delivery of weapons through the U.S. mail. Dodd was interested in the unregulated traffic of Italian Mannlicher-Carcanos as well as the company that Oswald supposedly purchased his rifle, Klein's of Chicago. Evia writes that he has learned from two unimpeachable sources that Dodd "caused at least one Mannlicher-Carcano to be ordered in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald ... " or in the name of Hidell sometime in 1963. "Whether that rifle was ordered before November 22nd, 1963, ... a left-wing former Marine defector buying mail-order weapons to support concretely Senator Dodd's gun control position, or ordered immediately after the JFK assassination to make the same point (but even more chillingly), the same post-assassination effect was apparently achieved." [14] In the summer of 1963, Dodd had presided over a Senate Internal Security subcommittee investigation of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Oswald was the only member of the New Orleans branch. In 1963, Dodd called the Fair Play for Cuba Committee a chief public relations instrument for Castro.

After Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig viewed the sniper's nest, where he saw three spent 6.5 millimeter cartridges, he began to search for a weapon with Boone. "We started toward the northeast corner of the building. There was a stack of boxes at the head of the stairwell and Boone looked into it and said, 'Here it is. Here's the rifle.' We didn't touch it until Captain Fritz and Lt. Day of the Dallas police got there. They took some pictures of the rifle and Day pulled out the rifle and handed it to Captain Fritz, who held it up by the strap and asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman had joined us and Weitzman was a gun buff, and he was very good with weapons. He said, 'It looks like a Mauser.' He walked over to Fritz, and Captain Fritz was holding the rifle up in the air, and I was standing next to Weitzman, who was standing next to Fritz, and we weren't more than 6-8 inches from the rifle, and stamped right on the barrel of the rifle was '7.65 Mauser,' and that's when Weitzman said, 'It is a Mauser,' and pointed to the '7.65 Mauser' on the barrel." [21]

Boone later testified that Captain Fritz also thought that the gun was a Mauser. [22] Boone testified in two written reports that the gun was a Mauser. Weitzman signed an affidavit the next day stating that the rifle he and Boone had found was a "7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it." [23] Fritz would eventually testify to the Warren Commission that the gun found on the sixth floor was Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano. Weitzman also recanted his belief that the gun was a Mauser, though he was never shown the Mannlicher-Carcano by the Warren Commission to confirm the fact that it was the rifle that he had seen on the sixth floor. An FBI envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122) dated 12/2/1963 that was released in 1995 by the AssassinationsRecord Review Board ARRB had a cover that detailed the contents of the envelope as being a 7.65 mm rifle shell. The shell was allegedly found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, though nothing was known about this envelope or rifle shell until the release of the 1995 records. The whereabouts of the 7.65 mm rifle shell is unknown. Researcher Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko first reported the envelope. The envelope had the following label: "7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/1963 ... determined of no value and destroyed."

Arthur Pineda's analysis of photos showing the rifle in Lt. Day's possession seems to heighten the controversy concerning the ammunition clip and the identification of the rifle. Dallas Police Department pictures show Lt. Day dusting a rifle for prints while in the Texas School Book Depository. The photograph shows that the rifle has no ammunition clip. However, another picture of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository shows a rifle with an ammunition clip "clearly visible protruding from the bottom of the magazine of the rifle." This photo also shows a rifle with sling swivels mounted on the left side of the weapon, "while CE 746 B (a Warren Commission enlargement of CE 133A, which is a photo of Oswald with rifle) clearly shows that Oswald's rifle had the sling swivels on the bottom. The rifle that Lt. Day is carrying simply is not Oswald's rifle." [24]

The CIA produced a document on the 25th of November 1963 that created more confusion by declaring " ... employed in this criminal attack is a Model 91 rifle, 7.35 caliber, 1938 modification ... the description of a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error. It was a Mauser." [29]

Curiously, Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano clearly has "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5" stamped on the side of the barrel. Though Oswald's rifle was clearly marked, Boone, Weitzman, Craig, and Fritz at one time stated they thought the gun was a Mauser, and Lt. Day's report is not available. Weitzman's description includes the exact calibration of the scope and the color of the sling.

Jim Garrison investigators interviewed David Kroman, a prisoner of Leavenworth Penitentiary and an acquaintance of Richard Case Nagell, the ex-C.I.A. agent who has been linked to the assassination through researcher Dick Russell. According to the Garrison investigators, Nagell told Kroman that a right-wing extremist group financed by H.L. Hunt and some Bastista sympathizers had plotted to assassinate Kennedy in Miami in December 1962. As Nagell had told author Dick Russell, the intent of the assassination would be to rationalize an attack on Cuba. Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building. [35] [My note: Here is further evidence that LHO thought he was being used as a 'bagman' when in fact he was being set up as a patsy. I'd say they set him up to be caught on the 6th floor dismantling the weapon as per instructions before taking it to a non-existent person on the 3rd floor. Of course, the guy who owned the TSBD building was a LBJ crony as well, allowing these carte blanche activities to take place in the building.]

From Hathcock they borrowed one hundred dollars and gave Hathcock a set of golf clubs and a Johnson semi-automatic rifle with a 30 power Bushnell variable scope as collateral. Eventually Hall repaid $50, retrieved the rifle and told Hathcock to keep the clubs. Hathcock never saw the rifle again but was asked about it by Jim Garrison, who showed Hathcock an enlarged photo depicting a Dallas detective holding a rifle "which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. The rifle looked to me exactly like the one I'd had in my office. I have combed the Warren Report stem to stern. I find no mention of that rifle, which was picked up on Dealey Plaza." [38]

Payne's statement was full of details concerning the Johnson rifle. Payne believed the rifle had been involved in numerous Cuban raids. He examined to see if it had been modified, but it had not. He confirmed that it had a 30 power Bushnell scope. He stated that the rifle was extremely accurate. Hall and "a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle" ten to fifteen days before the assassination. The next day Hall and the Mexican left for Miami. On November 18, 1963 Payne saw Hall again and asked him about the Cuban operations that he and Hemming had planned, but Hall merely said that the CIA had stopped the operation in Miami, and he did not have the time to talk about the matter since he had to make a plane to Dallas. Agent Crow questioned Payne on the 23rd of November. "We discussed the situation about what had occurred and what has gone on with Hemming and Hall ..." Payne told the HSCA. Payne believed the FBI was following him for several months after his conversation with Crow. In the subsequent months after the assassination Payne claimed that the FBI secretly searched his vehicle as well as Hathcock's offices. He talked to Hall about ten to fourteen days after the assassination. Hall told him he was "right in the middle of the lobby of the [Dallas] Hilton, Hotel" during the assassination. Author Dick Russell's interview with Hall told a different story of where Hall was on November 22, " ... I was in Monterey Park, California ... I'd just taken my wife to her job." [39] Payne later read that Hall claimed he was never in Texas. In his last conversation with Hall, Payne was told that Hall had several attempts made against his life, one being a car bomb. Hemming eventually told Payne thathe "didn't like the idea that the rifle went down there, since he felt it was his rifle and the golf clubs that were also hocked." [40]

Loran Eugene Hall, an anti-Castro activist Alpha 66 exile group, told author Dick Russell that in 1968 he had been offered $50,000 to assassinate JFK. The meeting occurred on October 17, 1963 when he was seeking funds for guerilla raids into Cuba. He was approached by "right wing radicals who also had RFK and MLK on their kill lists ... they were lunatic fanatical right wingers -- Klansmen and Fascists -- who had the means, the men, and their own twisted reasons for wanting to kill our leaders."

Hall claimed the group included ex-military men. He said he turned down the offer that was presented to him in a wealthy Dallas trucking executive's office. Hall also knew mafia boss Santos Trafficante, whom he shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959. In the spring of 1963, Hall claims he met in Miami Beach with Trafficante and others who were planning an exile raid of Cuba. Hall and Trafficante shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959, a fact he told the House Select Committee. Hall was implicated by the FBI as one of the men who met with Sylvia Odio, the Cuban woman who claimed she saw Oswald in September 1963 with two anti-Cuban activists.

In discussing a plot to kill the president, Hall told author Dick Russell "I'd go so far as to say I probably sat as close as I'm sitting to you now, to some people who had a part in it." FBI Director Hoover told the Warren Commission that Hall admitted to his agents that he was one of the three people that met with Sylvia Odio. FBI Agent James Hosty wrote in his 1996 book, Assignment Oswald, that a fellow security agent Wally Heitman discovered that Loran Hall, Larry Howard, and Willliam Seymour were the visitors at Odio's home. Seymour supposedly looked like Oswald and had a propensity for speaking harshly of Kennedy. Hall claims he never told the FBI that he met Odio. He claims that he was being setup as a "fall guy," another patsy in the rich cast of nefarious characters that surround the case. "I'm sure someone was out to implicate us." [42]

Hemming claimed, in a 1967 interview, he had met Oswald. Hemming stated "I ran into Oswald in Los Angeles in 1959, when he showed up at the Cuban Consulate. The coordinator of the 26th of July Movement [an anti-Castro organization] called me aside and said a Marine officer had showed up ... he told me he was a noncommissioned officer ... a radar operator ... helping the Cubans out with everything he knew. He turned out to be Oswald ... I thought he was a penetrator of pro-Castro forces... I thought he was on the Naval Intelligence payroll at the time." [43]


The Guns of Dealey Plaza
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby SydneyPSIder » 31 Aug 2014, 22:04

The Sights and Sounds of the Grassy Knoll

One of the most discussed and written about incidents concerning a rifle in Dealey Plaza and its association with the grassy knoll involves what Julia Ann Mercer saw in a traffic jam at Dealey Plaza the morning of the 22nd. Mercer said she saw two men in a green Ford pickup. One of the men took a long paper bag with what appeared to be the outline of a rifle and walked toward the grassy knoll. This event has been detailed in Lane's Rush To Judgement, Marrs's Crossfire, and Stone's JFK, Garrison's On The Trail of the Assassins, and Dr. Crenshaw's Conspiracy of Silence. Gerald Posner has declared "the Mercer story was fully discredited by December 9, 1963 ... subsequent investigation revealed that the truck, which had stalled, belonged to a local construction company; it had three men inside, and they did take tools from the rear of the truck to fix it. [49] They were under constant surveillance by three Dallas policemen ... " [50]

Jim Marrs, in his book Crossfire, relates the story of Julius Hardee. Hardee told The Dallas Morning News that on the morning of November 22nd he saw three men on top of the Triple underpass carrying either shotguns or rifles. Whether these men were police officers or not is unknown. Hardee claimed he reported the incident to the FBI but no report about the incident has surfaced.

Jean Hill, a 32-year old school teacher, watched the motorcade with her friend Mary Moorman. They viewed the entourage from a normally restricted area, the triangle-shaped area bound by Main, Elm, and Houston streets. Jean was close enough to the car that she heard Jackie scream, "My God, they've shot my husband!" Mary Moorman threw herself to the ground and tried to pull Jean down with her. But Jean stood still as she looked up the grassy knoll across the street and saw a shadowy figure of a man holding a rifle, partially hidden behind the wooden fence.

Malcolm Summers ran up the grassy knoll after the shots and found a man in a suit with an overcoat over his arm. He saw a "gun under that overcoat... his comment was 'Don't you all come up here any further, you could get shot, or killed.'" The FBI claimed they never stationed any of their agents on the grassy knoll that day.

Richard Randolph Carr testified at the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans in February 1967 that he heard a shot and then three more shots in succession, the last three shots coming from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll. One of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up," and he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from the grassy knoll area. Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have travelled from the fence toward the Criminal Courts building. [52] There are several accounts of witnesses seeing missed shots, and their detailed testimony is referenced in a variety of documents. [53]

J.C. Price, a building engineer for a Dealey Plaza building called the Union Terminal Annex, signed an affidavit on November 22, 1963 that he witnessed a young man dressed in a white dress shirt and khaki pants running behind the wooden fence on the grassy knoll just after Price had heard shots. Price described hearing a volley of shots that seemed to originate at the point where the fence meets the underpass. Price said the man he saw ran "towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding ... " with something in his hand " ... it may have been a head piece." [54] Price would later tell author Mark Lane that he saw a man " ...running very fast ... behind that wooden fence ... " The man "was carrying something in his right hand ... could have been a gun." [55]
[My note: This is exactly the location that James Files was supposed to be standing -- behind the picket fence under some trees on the grassy knoll, some way up from the concrete wall. This last account from Richard Randolph Carr implies considerably more shots were fired than the 4 or 5 we know about. Some accounts allow for up to 11 shots.]

James T. Tague stood watching the motorcade at the bridge abutment of the triple underpass. One of the shots hit a concrete curb of the street and threw up debris that cut Tague' s face. A police officer noticed Tague's cut face and "attempted to go in the direction the mark on the curb seemed to indicate the shot had come from ... " telling Tague that he had "seen 'something' there." [56] The source of the shot was determined to have come from the area of the railroad yards with the grassy knoll area between Tague and the yards.

Along with the sound of gunshots, which some witnesses believed emanated from the infamous grassy knoll, several witnesses saw smoke in this area that coincided with the sounds of the shots. [57]

If Oswald were the only shooter there would have to be at least 2.3 seconds between shots, assuming he used the telescopic sight found on the Mannlicher Carcano. The three shots that the Warren Commission claimed were fired from Oswald's rifle could not have been shot faster than 6.9 seconds. Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman described the shots as a "flurry." Two of the shots were often described by witnesses as so closely spaced that they seemed "simultaneous" and had "practically no time element between them." Additionally, there is a substantial amount of testimony, presented in this article, that describes the later shots as sounding different from the first shot. Governor Connally's initial reaction to the gunfire was "that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle." [65]

A double sound, or bang, is described by three Secret Service agents. Two of these agents sat within feet of Kennedy as occupants of the limousine. A double shot was reported by one of the witnesses standing on the overpass.

Special Agent William Greer, the limousine driver, testified that "the last two shots seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other." [66]

The other Secret Serviceman in the limousine was Roy Kellerman. Agent Kellerman sat next to Greer and was intimately familiar with the sound of weapons. He described the first shot like many others had, as sounding like a firecracker. But the other two shots, which he officially reported as a "flurry," sounded different than the first shot. Asked by Mr. Specter if Kellerman could describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction of the first shot, Kellerman replied " ... if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir." Did they sound different from the first shot, asked Specter. "Yes. Definitely. Very much so."

In Warren Commission testimony Special Agent Hickey described "two reports which I thought were shots ... that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [68]

Clint Hill, the agent who threw himself into the limousine after the shooting, told the Commission that the second noise he heard was different from the first shot " ... like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard... almost a double sound." [69]

S.M. Holland carefully watched the motorcade from the railroad overpass. He heard four shots with the third and fourth sounding like a "double shot." He thought some of the shots came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. "Well it would be like you're firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun... the third shot was not so loud ... the third and fourth shot hit the President." [70]
[My note: These accounts in the article are followed by many many more similar witness accounts of tightly spaced shots. All very disquieting for the WC in formulating its 'official' finding of 3 shots only, of which one hit the curb. The Dallas PD dictabelt evidence could itself be called into question when faced with these eyewitness accounts as the only other record of the number and timing of the shots.]

In 1992 Chauncey M. Holt, an ex-CIA agent and career criminal, claimed he was one of the mysterious tramps that was arrested in a railroad boxcar behind Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. He was in Dallas to deliver fake identification and handguns to unknown clients. The identity of the railroad yard tramps continues to be a source of controversy. Holt claims he is the older of the three tramps arrested the afternoon of the assassination in the railroad yard adjacent to Dealey Plaza. The other two tramps, says Holt, were Charles Harrelson and "Richard Montoya." Harrelson is presently in prison for murdering a judge. "Montoya" was a CIA agent whose real name Holt never knew. Holt's claim has been backed by a forensic artist with the Houston Police Department, Lois Gibson. She believes that the three tramps are indeed Holt, Harrelson, and Charles Rogers. Rogers has been a suspect in the 1965 murder of his parents in Houston. Rogers's possible role in the murder and the assassination was the source of an intense investigation by two Houston investigators. [100] Holt knew Rogers only as Montoya.

Holt claims in April of 1963 he helped set up CIA companies that included a Los Angeles firm, LASSCO, a manufacturer of police badges and security identification. In November of 1963 LASSCO received orders for a dozen identifications that included Secret Service IDs. Holt was told to rush the order to Dallas and deliver the material personally to a Homer Echevarria at the Cabana Motel on Thursday night, but he missed contacting Echevarria and was told (by an unknown source) to leave the identifications and some handguns in the front seat of a pickup truck parked in the railroad parking lot. [101]

A November 30, 1963 FBI memo made public in December of 1995 confirms some of Holt's story. The memo reported that a Secret Service informant knew that Homer Echevarria was involved in an illegal arms sale in Dallas on November 21, 1963, the same date Holt claimed in a 1992 interview that he was to meet Echevarria at the Cabana Motel. Echevarria had told a Secret Service informant that his group had plenty of money to mount an anti-Castro operation. The operation would go ahead "as soon as we take care of Kennedy." [102] The FBI did not pursue this lead.

While in the parking lot behind Dealey Plaza, Holt heard shots and immediately hid in a railroad boxcar where Harrelson and Montoya had sought refuge. They were found by the police around 2 p.m. carrying handguns. Holt claimed he carried a shorty .45 and an L-22, Harrelson an unusual caliber (.41) handgun, and Montoya a .25 automatic. They all carried federal undercover agent identifications and were eventually released from custody, according to Holt, by order of FBI agent Gordon Shanklin. [103] It should be noted that many serious researchers of the assassination remain skeptical of Holt's claims.

The 1996 book The Men on the Sixth Floor creates an interesting perspective to the testimony of the previously mentioned witnesses. [123] Loy Factor, a Chicasaw Indian from the American Midwest, told authors Glen Sample and Mark Collom that he was paid eight thousand dollars to be a part of a team of gunmen stationed on the sixth floor of the Depository. Factor's fantastic story involves Oswald, a woman who coordinated the shooting with a hand-held radio, a dark-complexioned man known only as "Wallace," and Factor. Just prior to the shooting Factor claims he entered the back door of the depository and climbed the stairs with the woman to the sixth floor where they found Oswald and Wallace handling a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano and a scopeless 30.06 rifle. Factor claimed he had a rifle but did no shooting, simply ejected a cartridge while Oswald and Wallace shot from different windows of the sixth floor. As soon as the shooting began Factor and the woman ran downstairs and escaped the area in a car. The authors believe that "Wallace" is the late Malcolm Wallace, an acquaintance of LBJ. The authors also believe that Wallace might be the man in the brown or tan jacket seen exiting the Depository. Madeleine Brown, LBJ's loquacious mistress, told Sample and Collom that she believes Wallace was part of the assassination plot with the full knowledge of Johnson. Wallace, a Dept. of Agriculture economist, had a very shady past and had allegedly been involved in at least two sensational murders in Texas. Ms. Brown has written in her unpublished book Texas in the Morning, which details her twenty year affair with LBJ, that she attended a party at Clint Murchison's home on November 21, 1963. The guest list included Nixon, H.L. Hunt, and LBJ. A group of these distinguished guests met privately for a short time. LBJ exited the meeting "anxious and red-faced," then whispered to Madeleine Brown in an angry voice, "After tomorrow those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again -- that's no threat -- that's a promise." Months later Ms. Brown claims that Johnson declared to her privately that he had nothing to do with the murder, that it was done by the CIA and "oil people."

Summary

Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle has been reported to have been found on the sixth floor and a lower floor of the Depository.

A 7.65 Mauser was reported by several investigating authorities, including Dallas Police officers, to have been found on the sixth floor.

An FBI envelope dated 12/2/63 was released in 1995 with a label declaring the contents as a 7.65 rifle shell found in Dealey Plaza. The CIA produced a document stating that the rifle involved in the crime was a Mauser.

A Johnson 30.06 rifle may have been found in Dealey Plaza soon after the shooting and several people known to be associated with the weapon were questioned by the FBI. A man who declared he was part of the plot saw at least one 30.06, scopeless rifle on the sixth floor. Either a Mannlicher-Carcano or a Mauser was found abandoned in an Indiana hotel on November 25, 1963 by a man who may have had associations with Communist organizations and Oswald.

An unknown rifle with no scope, no sling, and considerably longer barrel than Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano was filmed being taken from the roof of the Depository.

Two eyewitnesses saw men with rifles behind the fence on the grassy knoll and oneeyewitness saw a man running behind the fence on the grassy knoll with what may have been a handgun. One witness saw men with rifles or shotguns on the Triple Overpass the morning of the 22nd. Two witnesses saw bullets hit the ground that appeared to have been fired from the area of the grassy knoll.

A .38 calibre pistol in a paper bag, initially believed to be found in Dealey Plaza, was actually found somewhere several blocks from Dealey Plaza on the morning of November 23, 1963. Though the FBI investigated this handgun, no report on the conclusion of the investigation has ever been made public. Handguns were allegedly deposited in a vehicle within a few hundred feet of the shooting just hours before the shooting. Several witnesses of the shooting thought they heard a pistol fired. A man who claims he was one of the "tramps" says that he and the other two tramps were in possession of handguns when they were apprehended by police in the railyard behind Dealey Plaza.

Numerous witnesses to the shooting heard gunshots that were spaced so closely, and sounded different from each other, that it is questionable whether all the shooting could have been done by Oswald's bolt-action rifle.

Another FBI report, released in December of 1995, describes a possible illegal arms sale that was planned in Dallas on November 21, 1963 by a Cuban activist whose organization wished to mount an anti-Castro operation, an operation that would go ahead "as soon as we take care of Kennedy."

Dallas jail inmate Jack Elrod claimed that Oswald told him of having knowledge of a gun-running scheme that involved Jack Ruby. Many men, with a direct or peripheral involvement in the assassination, were allegedly involved in gunrunning: Oswald, Ruby, Masen, Shaw, Ferrie.

A CIA contract employee believes that four 7.35 Mannlicher rifles, he purchased and altered for David Ferrie, were used in the assassination.

Several witnesses in Dealey Plaza saw a man, or men, with a rifle on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.


The Guns of Dealey Plaza by John S. Craig
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Re: JFK 50TH Anniversary

Postby bill anderson » 07 Sep 2014, 01:57

Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: Hearings ... - Google Books

JFK Assassination Forum discussion and debate surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy In Dealey Plaza Texas on November 22nd 1963 Assassination of JFK

I think the agent closest to jfk after the shot would know best about exactly where the skull was blasted off.

From his W.C. testimony

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?
Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

From 'Mrs Kennedy and Me" by Clint Hill'


In his memoir, Mrs Kennedy And Me, Mr Hill said of the final shot: 'The impact was like the sound of something hard hitting a melon shattering into cement


'In the same instant, blood, brain matter and bone fragments exploded from the back of the President's head... and splattered all over me - on my face, my clothes, in my hair.'

As he moved towards Mrs Kennedy, he watched her reaction: 'Her eyes were filled with terror,' he wrote. 'She was reaching for something. She was reaching for a piece of the President's head.'


ZAPRUDER FRAME # 374 & a few others - Page 9 - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum FRAMES 313 AND 312.


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