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How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Discussions about Metaphysics, Quantum Physics, the Holographic Universe and the Nature of Reality.

How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby NucleicAcid » 01 Apr 2010, 03:34

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Re: How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 28 Apr 2012, 03:08

We obviously have different defintions of free will. You define it as not being a meat computer.
I define it as sloppy thinking.

Free-will is a word. If it means not being a computer made of DNA, then just what do you think it is?
It is GIGO, garbage and false premises go in, and miracles that have nothing to do with pulling back your hand when you realize the stove is hot come out.
Studies have indicated motions of the body occur prior to a conscious awareness of the "intention", and "free-will" or course correction can only occur in that interval. That is the only observed fact in the universe that proves any mental action intervenes in reality (which I am aware of, at least), instead of our mentality being merely a means of predicting future actions of others with an unfortunate side effect of letting us reflect, post facto, on how how stupid we are, and repenting.

You are mistaking the brain's ability to overule a body's motion in the fraction of the second before the body takes an action with the mind's self reflection. While I see indications mentality interacts with the world out of the mind, I have no conclusive evidence the decisions we make could have been different, aside from that one small fact which forced me to admit something resembling free will exists in humans for about a fifth of a second every year or so.

Basically, I think choice is impossible, even in what I describe as free will.
Thus free will is as non-existent as flying carpets, more or less, and certainly as non-existent as original sin, and, matched with original sin, (which largely contradicts the premise of free will) these errors have done the human race as much harm as belief in witchcraft, or the fact of cancer.

The most unjustified by evidence scientific opinion I have is that the double slit experiment justifies considering photons aware, even tho the behavior, weird as it appears, is strictly robotic.

As I think this thru, my conclusion becomes tautological, but I thought the posted demonstation was oxymoric. I would rather sound like I taught logic than like I am what I am, moron due to lack of oxygen. I am still trying to figure if I left any IQ points when I nearly died.
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Re: How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby Craig Browning » 29 Apr 2012, 00:14

Just in scanning your reply Twain I can see that you know little to nothing about genuine Metaphysical belief such as we have within the Martial Arts, Shamanic and even Christian Science/Science of Mind worlds. Fact is the mind can be disciplined (as an act of personal free will) to not fear the hot stove or for that matter, lava flows (that aspect of fire walking the skeptics have yet to explain away; how something hot enough to set a dense wood log ablaze in a matter of seconds doesn't harm the feet of the "Lava Dancers")

"Rationalists" simple think too much from a bound set of rules that the spiritually oriented and especially those that see the divine trinity as being Mind, Body & Spirit as One, process data and TRAIN themselves to understand and perceive matter, time and events & circumstance and how their relationship to those things ties to the laws of both Free Will and Karma. . . and before you go there, Karma is something we've accepted when it comes to Free Will or even what some call Free-doom. The Karmic debt that follows us from lifetime to lifetime is accepted into each incarnation by the entity seeking to correct the imbalance and learn the lesson as it were. "Instant Karma" as in the things we pay for in life as the result of conscious decisions in the present, is again a matter of Free Will in action because the student of this Trine Belief KNOWS BETTER and has chosen to ignore the wisdom and intuitive warnings -- they go against the beliefs they claim in a conscious manner and thus, the fire will burn them.

Physics as the rationalist loves to embrace it likewise applies to the world of Meta-Physics; it's the same dynamics and laws that are in effect just on a Mental & Spiritual level vs. the extreme "Carnal Only" extreme we've been taught to rely upon. . . the Illusion as most mystics would refer to it as being.

Logic really doesn't apply in this case, not in the way you're trying to make it fit. But it's your Free Will that allows you to believe such things . . . kind of. . . you were after all, indoctrinated by way of exposure to left-brain academics vs. right-brain processing in which all things become both, possible as well as plausible.
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Re: How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 29 Apr 2012, 04:21

Craig Browning wrote:Just in scanning your reply Twain I can see that you know little to nothing about genuine Metaphysical belief such as we have within the Martial Arts, Shamanic and even Christian Science/Science of Mind worlds.


DO you even remember who you are talking to, Craig. I am a semanticist, like Soktates. Define the terms or you are just masturbating.
Genuine metaphysics has nothing to do with the question I was answering. MY 1st step in dealing with any question is to define the terms in reference to real, multiply observed phenomena, which is what I was trying to do here.
Basically, the original post was not logical, but was simply a rhetorical ploy which a smug catholic boy attempted to use to discomfit Kurt Vonnegut, who responded by saying, “Then why are we arguing?” and later successfully stimulating the boy to involuntarily cross himself in response to the catholic's childhood conditioning.

I did not attempt to define the word free, much less will. I was simply describing the phenomena I believe underlay the evolution of the factors that gave rise to the concept, but as I said to a Christian friend when such talk made here doubt her belief in God to her momentary discomfort, “We are evolved to see. Does that mean light doesn't exist?”

I know what it is to be in Zen time from personal experience. I know about Shamanism, because I am a Shaman, which I haven't mentioned here, partially because I had no explanation that remotely satisfied me, and partially because I do not to choose to argue about my spiritual state, which is an even fuzzier subject than economics. I was raised by a “Christian Scientist”, and do not go to doctors except in great reluctance, because I know from personal experience that all my sicknesses are psychosomatic in cause. I will say that if I belong to any school of Shamanism known to the world, my guru would be considered to be the late great Robt. Anton Wilson.

Craig Browning wrote:Fact is the mind can be disciplined (as an act of personal free will) to not fear the hot stove or for that matter, lava flows (that aspect of fire walking the skeptics have yet to explain away; how something hot enough to set a dense wood log ablaze in a matter of seconds doesn't harm the feet of the "Lava Dancers")


The fact is, when I walked on the thin non-conducting ash layer covering the coals, I simply kept in mind that ash is a damned poor conductor of heat. I was very embarrassed when my fellow Christians were taking it seriously, and felt I was participating in a fraud.


Craig Browning wrote: even what some call Free-doom.


Now that comes close to describing what I experience, the self fulfillment of “Doom” or “Moira” or “fate”.

The problem I have occurs repeatedly, I develop a model of the universe that allows choice and some facts don't fit. I develop a model that doesn't allow choice and I find it requires us to act as if we had choice anyway, as Oidipos did, and as St Paul and John Calvin says all humans do with a free will that, like Vonnegut's determinism , gave one the free will only to repent your actions.

Right now, I see two possibilities. Either the future doesn't exist yet, in which there is some wriggle room and “quantum uncertainty” in our predetermined paths, allowing a degree of choice, or the future already exists, in which case, the scope is either severely limited, or becomes the exclusive property of some programmer not yet identified, or we are all doomed to act out what already is.

I accept you superior knowledge in these fields. I hope you will accept I have some knowledge of them as well, Craig. I left it to you to bring up those aspects of the argument

My rough estimate is that, 90% of the behavior of 90% of humans is roboticly preprogrammed 90% of the time. I would be very surprised if the quantity of robotic reprogramming is that low, and I suspect that most of the remaining behavior is mostly the re-programming which our meat computers, or the fields of our psyches do, and that even this reprogramming is foredoomed within severe constraints.

But, from personal experience, I “believe” that “everything that happens to us is our fault, but that is not our fault” and that, rather we have choice or not, we have to pretend we do, for psychic health if nothing else. These are mysteries

There are also opinions. I do not regard any of my shamanic knowledge as being objectively verifiable.

And just because we are evolved to see doesn't men we understand light.

PS. An account of some of my early experiences of "foredooming" are here. Catsmeat Witnessess: My precogs, by Twain o Shakespeare
by Twain Shakespeare » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:03 pm

I am working on an account of my "shamanism"
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Re: How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby Craig Browning » 29 Apr 2012, 18:28

Well, I guess the Catsmeat is out of the bag, eh? :lol:

I can more than understand the fuzzy explanation about one's shamanic niche; I'm very much eclectic in my studies; everything from being raised hard core Southern Baptist to adventures with the Hopi Indians and then some. But I likewise agree with your views on said cartoon -- trying to be cute in that case really missed the mark; besides, there's a reason polite company don't bring up religion in conversations.

Philosophically Speaking I would say that I'm a mix between Christian Gnostic, Science of Mind, Buddhism and Wicca with a large dose of Hermetics & Kabalism for good measure. I do however, debate the Psychosomatic idea when it comes to illness & disease. While I know the mind "creates" I also know that karma has a word in things, which is why some are born with certain diseases or conditions as well as why some healers end up plagued by health conditions such as I juggle; I did lots of healing work during the 80's and the on-set of AIDS as well as working with cancer patients and other sufferers of various types. You can cleans all you want but you always keep a piece of it; not for punishment but more akin to a merit badge that says to the wise one's that are in the know that you are the real thing and not another New Age nut case.

I appreciate your response, far more than you might realize. ;)
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Re: How To Quickly End 75% of Metaphysical Arguments

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 09 May 2012, 13:17

Thankyou, Craig. Ability to note irony does get frayed sometimes by the net.

Karma as a merit badge, like it sez "Deliver me from finals, and Failure." Think I dig it Craig, but I am tired and fuzzy headed, but again, thankyou for your kind response
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