Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

[Indigo Child]

Nah, you are just selectively reading the opinions of people who share your own opinion.

It does not negate the facts being presented here. PSI research in the US military has been
ongoing for decades. More research is being done on more advanced PSI things. The study is by
the most powerful air force in the world, and it says in the study itself, PSI is proven.

You seriously need to move on and stop living in denial. It's proven. Case closed.

[ProfWag]

[really?]

[Indigo Child]

Read the report. It says PSI is proven, and psychic teleportation is real.

Further research means exactly what it says, more research needs to be done
on a subject.

You guys and your silly semantical debates

[ProfWag]

[Steve Knight]

I don't know if I've posted this link before but since it relates directly to the SRI tests with Geller and the claims and counter claims surrounding them I'll post it anyway:

www.zem.demon.co.uk/fact.htm

It's a partly annotated version of the infamous "Fact Sheet". I would appreciate people pointing out any errors of fact or interpretation therein, preferably by email to: steveknightspost@hotmail.com

[Blitu]

Okay. Based on the information I've seen here if all sources are accurate... unfortunately... Uri Geller is a fraud... He most likely does not have psychic powers.

Strike 1: He has not submitted himself for more tests. Fair enough. His skeptics give him plenty of free publicity. Why give that up?
Strike 2: He has only bent the weakest part of the spoon. Again... Fair enough. I mean, bending any other part of the spoon would look silly. and to bend the... er... bowl of the spoon he'd have to break it. You'd have to crush it to bend it. Spoons are expensive! And besides, and if he's bending it with his mind, who cares what part of the spoon is bent? He's bending it... with his MIND! That's awesome!
Strike 3: Uri cannot do anything outside of those few tests (That is, testing where we know... and saw 100% of the experiment and knew it was not flawed in any way.) That''s where I draw the line. I find it no mere coincidence that he doesn't show ANY signs of psychic powers, even in private shows or... whatever he calls them. It's possible he's doing this to keep his skeptics but still... I find it odd...

I am NOT saying psychic powers do not exist. They do. At least I think they do. There have been some very accurate predictions (I.E. Nostradomus) and there is an unexplained phenomena occurring in these tests. But as for Uri Geller Having psychic powers, I think Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman have said it best: "BUSTED"

[Craig Browning]

NEWS FLASH

Uri, like a very long list of others (myself included) is a Psychic Entertainer or "Mentalist" (not not a "Mentalist" as they are known today but old school); in his day of climbing up the ladder most mental acts such as Kreskin, claimed to be real, frequently billing themselves as Telepaths or Clairvoyants, etc. It wasn't until the mid-1970s that you started seeing more and more anal attitudes on this point due to the political game playing of a certain disenfranchised Canadian/Communist Sympathizer & Pedophile who shall remain nameless Starting in the mid-70s to present, a very pronounced and cruel agenda of cynicism (Atheist based Evangelism) has infected the Magician's world and that of a relatively small handful of legit scientists who have a chip on their shoulder alongside a deep need to prove "God" and "Miracles" aren't real and to classify any sort of religious/spiritual belief under the heading of "Magical" or "Fantisful" thinking e.g. a psychological imbalance/illness. . . and then we have the bio-chemical theories afoot showing how believers have a greater level of certain chemicals or whatever in their system than the so-called "rationalist".

If you haven't guessed, I'm quite defensive when it comes to this issue as a whole; not Uri's legitimacy of claim but rather the attack on faith so many "rationalists" feel justified in promoting. Understand, I loathe having ANY GROUP trying to force their views into my world be it the door knocking missionaries or street corner pitchmen for the Watch Tower or those or extreme "pragmatism". I think it's wrong, PERIOD! People should be allowed to believe as they will without persecution or imposed stigma that something is wrong with them because of their belief or testimony.

Getting back to Uri & Co. the Old School of Mentalism, as I said, leaned on the idea of being real, it is an approach that is coming back into vogue as young enthusiasts are awakening to the fact that most of the commercial garbage out there ain't true Mentalism. In the not so long ago "old days" many Mentalists deliberately kept their distance from the magician's society because of how magician's viewed the craft and basically sought to learn our methods so they could do "tricks". A great example of this is the abuse of a technique known as The Center Tear; while there are but a limited number of ways of employing this method there are volumes of text offering "tricks" that use it and use it in a way that is completely illogical; the short version being -- here, write your thought down here on this slip, inside this circle and then fold it into quarters. . . good, now I'm going to tear it up and read your thoughts

Dauh!

Like most of those tied to the Old School philosophy or Mentalism, Uri has a legit belief and education in the arena of Metaphysical Spirituality a.k.a. New Age thinking and in his case, the Kabalah; the Hebrew paths of mysticism and self-enlightenment/self-realization. Because of such ties there is a very genuine aspect to what we do and why we do it, in Uri's case I can only state, based on my limited interactions with the man, that it's simply a matter of personal calling & empathy; like the greater majority of Psychics be it those that are unaware of the Mentalist's art or those who are, the primary foundation to what we do is to aid people in finding their own strength and have a reason to apply themselves towards acts of self-healing, etc.

Yes, there are charlatans/predators out there and I'll be at the head of the line to expose and hopefully have them prosecuted, but they are a minority and not the majority, so why are so many "intelligent" people so hell-bent to harass them and cause them harm? Especially when the majority of patrons don't feel ripped off or manipulated into a co-dependent relationship with their Reader/Healer, or whatever. Uri has NEVER taken direct advantage of anyone to my knowledge; he's never targeted people and told them that he can remove a curse or connect them with some long past loved one, etc. So how is he a "bad guy"?

If you want to catch the crooks the prey on the public start looking closer at Wall Street, Politics and even the auspices of Organized Religion and how it fleeces the public (especially televangelists). These groups are far more corrupt and damaging to the average citizen than anything in the typical Psychic/New Age arena.

[ProfWag]

What a wonderful world we would live in if everyone lied like Uri. (sarcasm intentional)
To say he's never hurt anyone by his claiming he was psychic back in the day, Craig, is either naive or it's wishful thinking.

[Blitu]

WHOA CRAIG! Who said anything about harassment? I am merely stating he is not a psychic. I must also remind you that this is a debate as to whether or not Uri Geller is a psychic. This is not a debate on why it is okay for people to lie about having psychic powers. Whatever you call him, you cannot call him a real psychic.

[Blitu]

Ok. Upon further research... I have learned that psychokinesis is not something that can be done on a whim. By that I mean, you can't just do it at any time. It's very random. Some days you can do it incredibly well, others you can't do this at all. So... Does this help Uri Geller's case? Kind of. There have been cases where there's been blatant cheating from him (at least based on what people in this forum had said. I.E the case with the metal spike). However... there is a chance, (albeit very small) that he is a psychic. When he "didn't feel like it" maybe he actually didn't. In the case with Hal Puthoff and Russel Targ, he was given 7 days to figure out the pictures, so he obviously didn't get anything some days. Another thing, upon further research I discovered that he did not guess the die in the box 8/8 times but 8/10 times. 2 of the times he didn't feel anything so he refused to answer. (So yes, technically 8/8 of his guesses were correct but he only 8/10 possible guesses were correct.) HOWEVER... If he is a psychic, he is still a corrupt individual. He cheated, and assuming he is a psychic, he cheated for one of two reasons:

1. He didn't feel right that day and didn't want to called a fraud and lose support (I.E. Publicity and money)
2. He did want to get caught so he would get more skeptics who will argue about him giving him even more publicity.

I'd guess it was the first one.

[Craig Browning]

To Clarify Things a Tad . . .

True "Psychic Entertainers" typically believe and claim that they have a certain level of PSI ability on the back of which is built an "act" or "demonstration" if you would. My personal path started with my being able to tap into people's lives and describe things to a T when I was a toddler just learning to communicate, etc. (3-5 years old). As I've noted many times, I come from a very strong family line in which such things are quite common though feared by some and embraced by others. My drive however centered on wanting to better understand what I did; how I could intuitively know certain things? This curiosity lead me to studying stage magic as well as theology & the world's various religions.

Uri had a similar situation but as he built a reputation and the demand came to do presentations he was faced with the same thing I and others like us, are faced with -- the need to "do it" when we're having an off day or when things simply don't connect. Hell, you try to do Readings back to back to back for 10 hours straight at a Psychic Fair and not get burnt to a crisp; you must "perform" even though you are "dead" to which certain "cheats" start coming into play that happen to include Forer patterns, Barnum Statements and what I call "Legal Cheats" -- relying on the meanings behind numbers (Numerology) and Colors more as you would a cue card or mnemonic.

When it comes to TK/PK type work I can only imagine how challenging it can be; while I have had a couple of instances in which such things have happened in my life, it was typically triggered by personal anger and resulted in a key ring of unusable keys. On the other hand I have a more pragmatic theory when it comes to such phenomena; I believe the proper ratio is 1 in 22 people are born with a natural bio-electrical/magnetic condition that allows them to literally magnetize items or, in the case of fine mechanical workings like a watch, freeze up the workings. The theory being that some such people are able to conduct or send this very natural energy outward in a manner that causes movement or distortion. Just like my intuitive abilities to "read" things I believe PK likewise hosts a down to earth explanation and that the problem with it centers on skeptics seeking to disprove it rather than break it down and understand it.

Uri has probably endured more "testing" (a.k.a. harassment) than any psychic on the face of the planet in global history. He's passed numerous tests including those put to him by Randi & Co. which allowed him to win law suits against Randi when it came to "slander" (though the "honorable" St. James has never honored any court ruling, which isn't so surprising).

I can't and won't go into yet another "test" someone has put out there. To me it's a matter of beating a dead horse and proof that the majority of "skeptics" are ass's and never satisfied; if a psychic proves out on one group of tests for group A then group B insists on doing more of the same followed by C, D, E, F and so on into infinitum. Where in such a scenario, is the line drawn? When is the "psychic" allowed to live their life without harassment and continued challenge? When do the left brain driven bullies reconnect to their obviously limited sense of humanity and choose to leave things alone?

This is my gripe and the burning question most people in this particular pair of shoes continually ask.

When it comes to Uri ever hurting someone. . . show me when and where.

Aggressive Cynics like Penn Jillette and Randi have done more to create psychological trauma and social unrest than any professed psychic or even the predatory charlatans I've ever met in the past 40 years. There is a double-standard that totally ignores how one group uses the exact same techniques they claim psychics use to extort and pull money out of the public pocket and create a co-dependent state. Just look at the world of Sales let alone white collar vocations like Mental Health, the Insurance Industry, Politics, the Ministry. It's ok for "them" to use this and that tactic but Psychics aren't allow to use so much as a Rolodex and client files; if we send a birthday card to a client it's because we have overt plans.

Has any "investigator" into Uri or other psychics, even stopped to weigh how their actions bring harm to others?

NO, they don't! Like every good Baptist in the world they expect everyone to think as they do and disbelieve anything miraculous, spiritual and other-worldly.

Sorry, but this is a very touchy subject for me. I've seen how this kind of crap hurts and destroys lives.

[Arouet]

[Craig Browning]

Geez... you know I don't keep that crap in a file box. I know it from an article I read over five years ago, if I recall it was some kind of international court thing.

[Arouet]