SCEPCOP Forum

I mean, for what?

To make a million?

If they're genuine, they will go to the casino or the track, and make all the cash they could ever want.

Also, if they are really genuine, they are going to do everything they can to stay low key. Think about this seriously for a minute. If the government, hell, if the public, really believed you were genuine, then you would be one hunted individual.

Where do you get that idea? Watching too many movies. Governments have employed psychics before. Or do you think they hire ones they know are fake to cover up the ones they have hidden over at Gitmo?

sorry for the grammatical errors in the proceeding post. slightly inebriated....

I will admit to not being the biggest fan of James Randi in his current form, and I think that there can be some legitimate reasons for anyone possessing real paranormal skills to not want to take the challenge. I think this card gets played up way too much and it is not the litmus test it's made out to be. I'm not a fan of Alex Tsakiris (Skeptiko) in the least but I found myself siding with him when he had Randi on as a guest. Here's how I view Randi; he seems to be primarily a show man, both at heart and in practice. He has his shtick and he stays with it. I don't think that makes him wrong or invaluable, on the contrary, I think he's provided a lot of useful examples to the public on how easy it can be to be fooled by someone. Those examples though, say nothing about people who may actually have some real abilities.

To not mislead anyone I'll say quite clearly that in essence, Randi and I would not seem to differ on many of our conclusions. Where we do differ is when he states unequivocally and repeatedly (sometimes in the same interview) that if there were real paranormal practitioners out there that they would take his test to win the money, and the fact that no one has won yet proves that none exist.

As for the whole military thing, I'm not sure why the government would hunt anyone down if they could contract them out. Maybe if the "genuine" psychic was trying to run away, but I just don't see it. Besides, what military engagements are we in where a psychic would really be needed that badly that they'd be hunted like animals? I can only think of possibly defending against terrorist attacks on our home soil or abroad, but given the complete lack of psychic warnings for 9/11 I'd think that one of these 3 scenarios are most likely:

1. Psychics are real, but they can't control their powers well enough to be useful in which case the military would have little need to hunt them down.
2. Psychics are not real, so there's no evidence for the military to take such drastic actions on.
3. Psychics are real and can see things like this, but are fearful of what would happen to them should they be found out, meaning that all of them value their own lives above the thousands that died on 9/11.

Let me know if you think I've missed something on that front. Also, as a side-note, I'm just using 9/11 as an example. Any major disaster or military strike would suffice for me as I've yet to hear about the brave psychic warning everyone and either being ignored or having saved the day.

There's a rather ancient saying, "Thou shall not tempt the lord thy god. . . "

In more mundane terms, when you chase after something the lower your chances at finding it. Have you even noticed how, when you're single it seems no one has an interest in you and the instant you get into a relationship would be opportunities come out of the woodwork?

Look at nature, how the very critters a lion would enjoy chowing down on will walk side-by-side with lions when they are well fed and the threat of attack does not exist. Same applies when it comes to human hunters in the wood and why they strive to be more and more stealthy so as to not project their intent for the animals to sense -- it's all an aspect of basic instinct for the sake of survival, to sense the aggressor and/or potential danger.

When it comes to things Psychic/Spiritual "faith" or put another way, "trust" is the key requisite, until you let go and stop insisting on some kind of unique experience, it's probably not going to happen. Too, the more critical (cynical) your personal perspective, the less likely you will be to recognize such things in that you'll be too busy trying to figure it out or applying one of the classic skeptic band-aids to the situation, such as "coincidence" or my favorite fickle-fart "self-fulfilling prophecy" (c'mon, in one breath skeptics say that affirmation & visualization/prayer don't work and yet, it is one of their favorite explanations when it comes to precognition or the fulfillment of prayer??? ).

People that want to hunt down this "proof" want to dissect the source in order to "figure it out" -- not because of general curiosity but so they can exploit that same ability for self-gain. . . this is the greater truth behind it all, just look at how much knowledge gets abused in the world and how much of it was once esoteric knowledge reserved for the few, be it mystical or technological; when the secrets become available they bring forth greed and a lust for power. This is why certain knowledge and certain truths must remain elusive except in those very rare instances.

If you honestly want to have such experiences set aside your bias and pick-up a copy of Joseph Weed's book "Wisdom of the Mystic Masters" and begin working the process it outlines. You will discover two things if you do this; a.) how mystical it really isn't; b.) how amazing it actually can be. It might take you a couple of years, but I promise that you're eyes will be opened and that's before you step anywhere close to some of the other factors associated with psi-development such as Tarot or the ways of the Kabalah.

I’m entirely unsure of how this responds to what I said in any way other than to assert that I’m too cynical, too inquisitive, not open-minded enough, and have not been looking in the proper manner, all of which I take exception with.

1. I’m too cynical. Skeptical and cynical are two different things. Skeptical implies that belief is provisional based on reason and evidence. Cynical implies a pre-existing negative belief, and a generally sour attitude towards the thing being judged. I’m not cynical. I used to believe that this type of thing was possible and existed. The reason I no longer do is that I’ve yet to see sufficient evidence and/or reason to allow me to maintain that belief.

2. Too inquisitive. I won’t deny that I question things a lot, but I cannot see how that’s a problem if psychics can be genuine and you are not invoking some untestable claim to explain their skills. If you are, then it’s strictly a matter of faith, and that’s something I do not possess.

3. Not open-minded enough. Perhaps you thought I was being disingenuous in my last post, but I wasn’t. I absolutely would love to believe in psychic phenomena. Such abilities would make me giddy to witness. I’ve also never closed the door on any belief I’ve previously held; I still continuously look into religion to see if there’s something I’ve missed for example.

4. Not been looking in the proper manner. I honestly don’t know what this means. It sounds like you are saying that to look properly I have to not look, but that’s a nonsensical statement and would seem to imply that only those disinterested in the topic would stand a chance of finding a psychic. Besides that, your nature example doesn’t work because lions quite frequently catch what they hunt; that’s what they’re known for. Same goes for human hunters.

I find all of this though, to be completely beside the point unless your contention is that genuinely possessing paranormal skills means that you behave in a very specific manner from which no one has ever deviated. Human nature would seem to mandate that someone, at some time would have made the decision (reasonable or not) to reveal themselves or made some decision which accidentally revealed themselves.

Lastly, I’ll address your unsupported assertion that whomever wants to understand how such phenomena are possible and the mechanisms by which they work can only be motivated by selfish desires and not genuine curiosity. I’m sitting here telling you that I am genuinely curious. I’m not trying to win the lottery or the stock market, I’m not trying to remove some psychic gland which will make me psychic, I’m simply genuinely curious as to if such things exist, and if so how they function. Frankly, I find this argument of yours in direct contrast with your other argument about genuine psychics. There’s any number of reasons you present for why I have no proof of them, but you somehow have the ability to say with absolute certainty that no one can have virtuous motives in trying to learn?