Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparitions
22 Jun 2009, 07:49
While browsing through a Facebook forum I frequent for various reasons, I came across a Skeptic making the following accusation against Apparitions & Hauntings type Phenomenon...
"Like try suggesting to a person who believes in ghosts that maybe the fridge or clock radio is creating a mirage effect in their eye goo and that when they stand in a certain part of a certain room they can pick up ghostly images out of the corner of their eye.
People love a spooky story and even when they know it's BS at the heart of it, they insist on passing it on with a few tweaks here and there."
What this shows, is that this individual has obviously never even bothered to look into even the *very basics* aka *not even barely scratching the surface* of Apparition & Hauntings type Phenomenon, if they think such a quick dismissive rebuttal like that debunks the entire phenomenon. It insults the intelligence of anyone who takes any of this seriously as to suggest anyone who believes any of this must be a bumbling brainless non-thinking idiot to the degree they are suggesting in that little quip. It's far more complicated than that.
The main types of Apparition Encounters that I personally give real interest to are the ones with Veridical Details associated with them. (That is, Verifiable Details.) The types that highly suggest there may be more going on than mere hallucinations and "just seeing things". Simply "Seeing An Apparition" isn't very convincing (unless multiple people witness it at the same time and describe the same entity, of which there are many cases, kind of hard for multiple people to hallucinate the same detailed entity) and can easily be explained by hallucination or the eyes playing tricks on you or a similar explanation, save for those types of cases with Veridical Details being imparted from the encounter, those are far more interesting, but are still largely subjective accounts. You can't generally measure or reproduce on demand these anomalist encounters, as they are by their very nature, anomalist, but they are very intriguing.
Veridical Types of Apparition Hauntings...
* Veridical information revealed to the witness/witnesses either in the apparition's appearance (such as specific clothing, facial/body features, injuries, etc), movements (such as having a distinct limp), smells (such as the distinct smell of specific lady's perfume that the person wore in life and no one else in the household owns or keeps), the specific location (such as the apparition being spotted in the place of death or great tragedy), or relayed veridical information that is later verified as factual about the deceased (such as later matching their description with an old photograph of the deceased, or being told who killed them, the location of valuables, or specific phrases known being uttered which matches their personality known only to living relatives/friends).
* Especially interesting are the cases where multiple people, either together at the same time, or independently at another time at the same location, end up describing the *exact same entities* they are witnessing. Even if they had no prior knowledge of the location or it's history.
Now, another type of Veridical Apparition Encounter is the Phenomenon known as After Death Communication (ADC)...
* A classic example are the cases where the apparition of a relative who is known to be in good health appears to a loved one, totally unexpected, and either announces their death or fades away without speaking, all when the experiencer was in good mind and not stressed, and later that day or the next morning, the experiencer finds out that the same relative died unexpectedly the night before or earlier in the day, shortly before they were visited.
* If the apparition is unknown to the person, there are many cases where the apparition was identified by other means: The apparition wears specific very unique clothing, has a unique scar or birthmark or is injured or bandaged in a certain way, a very unique hair style, has a distinct limp, smiles in a certain way, or some other physial characteristic that is later identifies them when the witness or witnesses speaks to other people / relatives / friends, or sees them in a photograph.
* The witness or witnesses may be visited by an apparition and believes them to be a living person, because unknown to the witness, the person had actually died sometime before, and the witness or witnesses was not aware of it.
* The apparition either directly tells them or shows them something important (a family secret, a lost will, how they died, who killed them, etc) that is later independently verifed to be true.
Then there is the Phenomenon known as Death Bed Visions (DBVs) where a person near death witnesses deceased relatives surrounding their death bed waiting on them. This is signifcant for the Veridical Details in many cases.
Death Bed Visions often contain Veridical Elements such as the following...
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons *unknown* by them to be Dead, but known to the Family to be Dead. (Such as a younger relative who may have died in a car accident during the dying person's illness, that the family decided not to tell them about in fear it would make them more ill, and just before they die, they are shocked to see this young person's spirit waiting on them, calling on them.)
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons *unknown* by them to be Dead, and likewise *unknown* to the Family to be Dead. (Such as a relative who unexpectedly died hours or days or weeks before, but news had not yet reached the family of their demise, and the entire family assumed them to be alive, yet the dying person sees them waiting on them as a deceased family member, which is later confirmed.)
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons Known by them to be Dead, and Death-Bed Visions seen by others. (Sometimes, even the visions of the dying of persons known to them to be dead contain Veridical Elements, such as the dying seeing them wearing certain clothing or certain accesories they had earlier in life that they had never seen them wear personally, that is confirmed by other family members who would have known. And in some cases, people not close to dying have seen spirits of the deceased waiting on the dying person before their death, didn't know who they were, later described them to other relatives, and found out who they were.)
The above types of Veridical Encounters highly suggest that certain Apparition Phenomenon is more than simply "hallucinations" or "just seeing things" when you examine that many of them contain strong veridical elements aside from merely "seeing a ghost". That's the interesting part. However, proof, as in absolute end-all proof, is harder to come by, as these are subjective experiences. But are very interesting regardless.
The Skeptic in question, apparently not even remotely aware of such Veridical Aspects of the Apparition Phenomenon, shows that many Skeptics don't even know the elementary level basics of what they are trying to debate.
"Like try suggesting to a person who believes in ghosts that maybe the fridge or clock radio is creating a mirage effect in their eye goo and that when they stand in a certain part of a certain room they can pick up ghostly images out of the corner of their eye.
People love a spooky story and even when they know it's BS at the heart of it, they insist on passing it on with a few tweaks here and there."
What this shows, is that this individual has obviously never even bothered to look into even the *very basics* aka *not even barely scratching the surface* of Apparition & Hauntings type Phenomenon, if they think such a quick dismissive rebuttal like that debunks the entire phenomenon. It insults the intelligence of anyone who takes any of this seriously as to suggest anyone who believes any of this must be a bumbling brainless non-thinking idiot to the degree they are suggesting in that little quip. It's far more complicated than that.
The main types of Apparition Encounters that I personally give real interest to are the ones with Veridical Details associated with them. (That is, Verifiable Details.) The types that highly suggest there may be more going on than mere hallucinations and "just seeing things". Simply "Seeing An Apparition" isn't very convincing (unless multiple people witness it at the same time and describe the same entity, of which there are many cases, kind of hard for multiple people to hallucinate the same detailed entity) and can easily be explained by hallucination or the eyes playing tricks on you or a similar explanation, save for those types of cases with Veridical Details being imparted from the encounter, those are far more interesting, but are still largely subjective accounts. You can't generally measure or reproduce on demand these anomalist encounters, as they are by their very nature, anomalist, but they are very intriguing.
Veridical Types of Apparition Hauntings...
* Veridical information revealed to the witness/witnesses either in the apparition's appearance (such as specific clothing, facial/body features, injuries, etc), movements (such as having a distinct limp), smells (such as the distinct smell of specific lady's perfume that the person wore in life and no one else in the household owns or keeps), the specific location (such as the apparition being spotted in the place of death or great tragedy), or relayed veridical information that is later verified as factual about the deceased (such as later matching their description with an old photograph of the deceased, or being told who killed them, the location of valuables, or specific phrases known being uttered which matches their personality known only to living relatives/friends).
* Especially interesting are the cases where multiple people, either together at the same time, or independently at another time at the same location, end up describing the *exact same entities* they are witnessing. Even if they had no prior knowledge of the location or it's history.
Now, another type of Veridical Apparition Encounter is the Phenomenon known as After Death Communication (ADC)...
* A classic example are the cases where the apparition of a relative who is known to be in good health appears to a loved one, totally unexpected, and either announces their death or fades away without speaking, all when the experiencer was in good mind and not stressed, and later that day or the next morning, the experiencer finds out that the same relative died unexpectedly the night before or earlier in the day, shortly before they were visited.
* If the apparition is unknown to the person, there are many cases where the apparition was identified by other means: The apparition wears specific very unique clothing, has a unique scar or birthmark or is injured or bandaged in a certain way, a very unique hair style, has a distinct limp, smiles in a certain way, or some other physial characteristic that is later identifies them when the witness or witnesses speaks to other people / relatives / friends, or sees them in a photograph.
* The witness or witnesses may be visited by an apparition and believes them to be a living person, because unknown to the witness, the person had actually died sometime before, and the witness or witnesses was not aware of it.
* The apparition either directly tells them or shows them something important (a family secret, a lost will, how they died, who killed them, etc) that is later independently verifed to be true.
Then there is the Phenomenon known as Death Bed Visions (DBVs) where a person near death witnesses deceased relatives surrounding their death bed waiting on them. This is signifcant for the Veridical Details in many cases.
Death Bed Visions often contain Veridical Elements such as the following...
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons *unknown* by them to be Dead, but known to the Family to be Dead. (Such as a younger relative who may have died in a car accident during the dying person's illness, that the family decided not to tell them about in fear it would make them more ill, and just before they die, they are shocked to see this young person's spirit waiting on them, calling on them.)
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons *unknown* by them to be Dead, and likewise *unknown* to the Family to be Dead. (Such as a relative who unexpectedly died hours or days or weeks before, but news had not yet reached the family of their demise, and the entire family assumed them to be alive, yet the dying person sees them waiting on them as a deceased family member, which is later confirmed.)
* Visions seen by the Dying of Persons Known by them to be Dead, and Death-Bed Visions seen by others. (Sometimes, even the visions of the dying of persons known to them to be dead contain Veridical Elements, such as the dying seeing them wearing certain clothing or certain accesories they had earlier in life that they had never seen them wear personally, that is confirmed by other family members who would have known. And in some cases, people not close to dying have seen spirits of the deceased waiting on the dying person before their death, didn't know who they were, later described them to other relatives, and found out who they were.)
The above types of Veridical Encounters highly suggest that certain Apparition Phenomenon is more than simply "hallucinations" or "just seeing things" when you examine that many of them contain strong veridical elements aside from merely "seeing a ghost". That's the interesting part. However, proof, as in absolute end-all proof, is harder to come by, as these are subjective experiences. But are very interesting regardless.
The Skeptic in question, apparently not even remotely aware of such Veridical Aspects of the Apparition Phenomenon, shows that many Skeptics don't even know the elementary level basics of what they are trying to debate.
Last edited by Eteponge on 12 Jul 2009, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparitions
22 Jun 2009, 11:09
I think it's because no one punishes them when they get things so obviously wrong. They know that they can get away with it. Hopefully SCEPCOP will start to change that.
Re: Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparitions
07 Jul 2009, 21:00
Here is the response from one of my spiritual advisors: (she always writes in purple so I've reproduced it that way here)
To those who actually have direct validated experience AND understanding of higher realms of Consciousness... they easily recognize that it is the psydo-Skeptic who is guilty of the very thing they accuse claiments of. Sure, SOME situations will meet the P.S.'s narrow rejection criteria. Who would NOT allow for SOME error? There will always be some mis-diagnosis, just as there are with any physical phenomina. Only a fool would suggest that observations of non-physical realms are any LESS, OR any MORE subject to sighting errors, since they both are dependent on the subjective mind.
Where these P-S's go wrong is in changing the rules to suit their personal agendas. Out of necessity they MUST lump together ALL claims of higher, non-physical realms as being IN ERROR in some fashion or another. For them ALL claims MUST be mis-diagnosis, making NO allowance whatsoever for "OTHER" possibilities, possibilities which currenly lie OUTSIDE of their own personal experience. I say MUST because they need these 'mis-diagnosis' explanations to support THEIR own personal agenda... even as they rarely even recognize that they HAVE a personal agenda... which is to maintain THEIR more contracted perspective of Reality. That's their program so they stick to it... until that program changes.
Yes, a physical only reality IS their reality... they just can't grasp yet that they are opperating from a more LIMITED reality than some. Of course ALL dualistic realities ARE limited to some degree, be they PHYSICAL or NON-PHYSICAL... but that is another whole discussion.
The bottom line here though is that these P-S's have little choice but to ASSUME total ERROR in all claims of the non physical, otherwise their perception of reality will be undermined, and they simply cannot afford for that to happen.
They SAY they want PROOF.. but they can't recognize ... yet, that the very proof they claim they want, is right at hand.. ANYONE is capable of accessing it! It is they themselves who are actively BLOCKING that proof by the very denial of it. Once they have a number of undeniable and validated experiences with actual "non physical" realities / higher vibrating modes of Consciousness, ONLY then will they be able to perceive that which has always been right HERE, right in front of them. It truly is a matter of being WILLING to allow one's own Consciousness, one's own AWARENESS to expand beyond the 5 senses which are only calibrated to these so called "physical" vibrations. No one else can march out this proof for another, each mind is responsible for seeking it themselves. We can suggest they go seeking, but that's about it. The rest is up to them.
Speaking for myself... Until my early 30's I did not at all embrace the idea of discarnate beings. I assumed I myself was this physical bag of water and nothing more. I experienced no non -physical beings until ... one day, with no effort on my part BANG... a veil was lifted and a whole new expansive realm became available to me. Suddenly the whole concept of what was PHYSICAL and what was NOT Physical was turned on its head. NOTHING is physical! It is all about one's senses being calibrated to different REALMS of Consciousness. Peace, Faithrada
To those who actually have direct validated experience AND understanding of higher realms of Consciousness... they easily recognize that it is the psydo-Skeptic who is guilty of the very thing they accuse claiments of. Sure, SOME situations will meet the P.S.'s narrow rejection criteria. Who would NOT allow for SOME error? There will always be some mis-diagnosis, just as there are with any physical phenomina. Only a fool would suggest that observations of non-physical realms are any LESS, OR any MORE subject to sighting errors, since they both are dependent on the subjective mind.
Where these P-S's go wrong is in changing the rules to suit their personal agendas. Out of necessity they MUST lump together ALL claims of higher, non-physical realms as being IN ERROR in some fashion or another. For them ALL claims MUST be mis-diagnosis, making NO allowance whatsoever for "OTHER" possibilities, possibilities which currenly lie OUTSIDE of their own personal experience. I say MUST because they need these 'mis-diagnosis' explanations to support THEIR own personal agenda... even as they rarely even recognize that they HAVE a personal agenda... which is to maintain THEIR more contracted perspective of Reality. That's their program so they stick to it... until that program changes.
Yes, a physical only reality IS their reality... they just can't grasp yet that they are opperating from a more LIMITED reality than some. Of course ALL dualistic realities ARE limited to some degree, be they PHYSICAL or NON-PHYSICAL... but that is another whole discussion.
The bottom line here though is that these P-S's have little choice but to ASSUME total ERROR in all claims of the non physical, otherwise their perception of reality will be undermined, and they simply cannot afford for that to happen.
They SAY they want PROOF.. but they can't recognize ... yet, that the very proof they claim they want, is right at hand.. ANYONE is capable of accessing it! It is they themselves who are actively BLOCKING that proof by the very denial of it. Once they have a number of undeniable and validated experiences with actual "non physical" realities / higher vibrating modes of Consciousness, ONLY then will they be able to perceive that which has always been right HERE, right in front of them. It truly is a matter of being WILLING to allow one's own Consciousness, one's own AWARENESS to expand beyond the 5 senses which are only calibrated to these so called "physical" vibrations. No one else can march out this proof for another, each mind is responsible for seeking it themselves. We can suggest they go seeking, but that's about it. The rest is up to them.
Speaking for myself... Until my early 30's I did not at all embrace the idea of discarnate beings. I assumed I myself was this physical bag of water and nothing more. I experienced no non -physical beings until ... one day, with no effort on my part BANG... a veil was lifted and a whole new expansive realm became available to me. Suddenly the whole concept of what was PHYSICAL and what was NOT Physical was turned on its head. NOTHING is physical! It is all about one's senses being calibrated to different REALMS of Consciousness. Peace, Faithrada
Re: Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparitions
18 Aug 2009, 12:31
yep got to agree with the sentiments expressed so far - - i too did not believe in some things till I actually experienced them ( so am just as guilty ) - and now take a different view - there is soo much we don't understand - but to dismiss totally the possibility is the height of folly
Re: Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparit
05 Aug 2012, 16:21
I myself don't believe in such phenomena...but i think everyone has the freedom to believe and say whatever they like
Re: Skeptics not knowing the elementary basics about Apparit
13 Sep 2012, 19:19