Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

[Scepcop]

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

[Arouet]

How nice do you think it would be to live in a society without any moral norms?

[Scepcop]

[Scepcop]

Here is my favorite aware freethinker Darryl Sloan on "defining good and evil without God".

[Scepcop]

Here is my favorite aware freethinker Darryl Sloan on "defining good and evil without God".

[Arouet]

[plodsie]

We have a conscience tough that we sometimes choose to ignore depending on our own needs. For example slaughtering animals for food is something I couldn't see myself doing unless I really needed to. That wouldn't stop me feeling bad about it though. I think we all have a shared conscience but others are better at ignoring it than others.

[Craig Browning]

[Scepcop]

Some more points to consider:

God and Mother Nature have no morals either - about letting animals, insects and plants die every second, or allowing innocent people to suffer, or allowing good/innocent people to die young and evil people to thrive and prosper either. So there does not seem to be any objective "divine moral code" that governs all of creation. Morality is something that humans create, not some universal divine law that governs the universe.

Sometimes you gotta do what's best for you. As already explained, survival and self-preservation often takes precedent over "morally correct choices". It's not right or wrong; it's just reality. No one likes to admit that publicly, but it's true. There is no perfect world in which the best choices are always the morally correct ones.

I know that doesn't sound good. But you have to be realistic here. No one (at least not most people) can always make the morally correct choice in every decision and action. No one is a saint. But we are all hypocrites in that we hold others to the standards of a saint which we ourselves do not live up to. Everyone (at least most) has skeletons in the closet that would bring moral condemnation from others if exposed out in the open.

As the saying goes: "People do not like to do what's right. They like to TELL others to do what's right."

For example, let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose Bill Gates accidentally deposited $500,000 into your bank account, and he never noticed it. Now, would you contact him and tell him about it, or would you think: "$500k to him is nothing. It's just pocket change to him. He'll never notice or care that he's missing that amount. I need it A LOT MORE than he does." Of course, publicly you might say that you'd report it because it's the "right and morally correct choice". But in REALITY and PRIVATELY, you KNOW you would probably keep it under the rationale and excuse: "I need this money more than he does. And besides, it was his mistake, not mine." Most people would probably do that, and never tell anyone about it of course. They would never post about it on a forum and try to debate the "morality" of it with others either, because they know that everyone would condemn them. Most of you KNOW that YOU WOULD just keep it, because in this scenario, your "survival instinct" would override your "moral instinct". The benefits and gains would overshadow the "moral ethics" (which bring you nothing), especially if you were badly in need of money. So stop pretending that you are all saints who hold other people to the standard of a saint. You are hypocrites and you know it!

Besides, most of you are also hypocrites for condoning the slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs, (and eating them) while condemning the slaughter of dogs and cats. And you are hypocrites for condoning hunters who shoot ducks and deer. Who are you to decide which life of which species is sacred and valuable, and which isn't? Should an advanced alien race have a right to eat you for food too? Just because you are human doesn't mean that human life is the most sacred thing in the objective universe. A higher more advanced race than you might think otherwise. There's simply no consistency in your thinking and moral standards.

If killing were morally wrong, then those who kill and eat animals would be punished by karma and universal retribution right away, wouldn't they? Yet many meat eaters live long and healthy lives. Why is that?

If killing were ethically wrong and punishable by karma, then is your immune system guilty of killing all the harmful bacteria that it kills everyday? Should karma punish you and your immune system?

If killing was a sin punishable by karma or God, then how come George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who started the Iraq War and killed over a million people, have gone unpunished by the universe, and are wealthier than ever? How come the US officials who started the Vietnam War lived long and healthy lives? How come Joseph Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler, lived to a ripe old age? Yet, Robert Kennedy, a man with great compassion for others, gets gunned down and dies young? Where is all the karmic retribution or divine justice in that?

If you are a man, every time you ejaculate, you kill thousands of sperm, even during sex. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" come upon you for that? If you are a woman, every time you go through menstruation, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" befall you for that?

So you see, under casual scrutiny, the "moral logic" of most humans falls apart and is shown to be inconsistent, subjective, situational and relative. Human morality is not some "divine law" handed down by God. It is a code of ethics humans created to help ensure the survival and cooperation of our species. The "moral conscience" you have in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty when you do something wrong is not something that God put into you. It's the result of the moral behaviors and beliefs of all your ancestors that have become ingrained into your DNA. It's the same reason why a kitten is born with an expert instinct to catch mice, and a knowing of what it can eat and what it can't. It's the same way animals know that they are supposed to run from predators. God didn't teach them to. It's simply ingrained into their DNA as an instinct from the past behavior of their ancestors.

This is why our survival instinct tends to override our moral instinct. Our need to survive comes first and foremost. It is the root instinct of all life and comes before all other instincts. It also precedes any "moral code" we develop to get along with others. So naturally, when survival and morals come into conflict, we will choose survival. As the saying goes, "One can only have morals if one can afford them."

[Bucky the Badger]

I'm sorry, but are you really saying that just because someone is evil and lives a long and fruitful life, that nature or God does not look down upon them? Do you really think that there is nothing objectively immoral about the slaughter of a human being, that we shouldn't force our moral values on others. I tell you this, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, etc. are getting what they deserve in the afterlife. If you have spent any time browsing the near death experience accounts (which doesn't seem likely) at nderf.org or near-death.com, you understand that what goes around does indeed come around and that God doesn't judge you, you judge yourself. You atone for these sins by going to a lower afterlife realm or reincarnating to correct the unbalanced dharma you have caused. What is this objective moral standard you may ask? Well, in the words of the great Jesus of Nazareth, "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself."

[Craig Browning]

[Arouet]

Who says humankind refuses to abide by it? Unless you mean: abide by it perfectly. There is a good reason why the golden rule shows up in every culture: it is plain logic, common sense and self-preservation. Humans are not self sufficient. We live in communities, and we depend on those communities for our survival. We evolved an emotion that favoured that: compassion. You are right: every child instinctively knows it. It is inbred in us. The fact that we don't apply it perfectly doesn't mean that we don't apply it! Probably we apply it most of the time -otherwise we'd just go around hitting people and swearing at everyone all day long. And we'd probably kill each other!

[Bucky the Badger]

Exactly. What makes humankind superior over the rest of the animals is not just our greater intelligence. We realized, long ago, that it is much easier to cooperate and get along with each other than live by the whole "survival of the fittest" mentality. Exploitation, manipulation, etc. is still, of course, practiced in this world by peoople seeking short term power over long term fulfillment. Such spiritually un-evolved folks will eventually come around and realize that LOVE is the strongest force in the universe.