Discuss Philosophical or Psychological subjects and topics.
29 Sep 2010, 16:49
Our movies, fairy tales, fictional stories, and religions teach that good is stronger than evil and always triumphs in the end.
But if you study history, evil seems to usually win. The oppressors with more power does whatever they want and gets away with any crime. History is filled with many examples.
Good people die young. Evil people live long lives.
Leaders that try to go actual long term good in the world (e.g. JFK, RFK, MLK, etc.) get assassinated, while evil leaders (George Bush, Stalin, Fidel Castro, Mao, the Rockefellers, etc.) live long healthy lives.
And there is unjust human suffering all over the world, both physical and emotional, on the innocent.
If there is a God or "intelligence" that runs the universe and created it, how can he let that happen if he's good? He either must be a sociopath, evil or have no power at all, right? Isn't that inescapable? How can you escape that logical conclusion?
Isn't that disturbing?
Could it be that all our beliefs about good being stronger than evil are just myths created to allow us to tolerate an insane evil world, and that the truth is the opposite of this myth?
Terrible but logical, huh?
29 Sep 2010, 23:29
All coins have two sides and it is the culmination of these two sides that make them a tangible thing e.g. you must have one with the other in order to have "something". This is the case of life as well as the eternal "psychic" battle between the auspices of good & evil... and understand that when I say "Psychic" I'm referring more to the clinical idea of that term rather than the paranormal idea, for it is the psyche of human beings that serves as the actual battle ground this game is played upon.
Firstly, define "evil"
Many of us would point fingers at Hitler and the Fascism but we forget the fact that this is what literally saved Germany at first and gave to the world a myriad of phenomenal things. Had Hitler held back and not invaded Poland, etc. chances are quite strong that he'd gone down in history as a hero and iconic political leader but, he allowed his subordinates influence him far too much along side a growing addiction to opiates and voila! A hell broke loose and what was "good" became "bad"
But those poor Jews! scream the folks in the pacifists gallery
Remember, a couple of notable Americans were awarded major kudos by Hitler himself because of their views towards Jews and minorities (non-whites). Too, in the 30's and early 40s much of America as well as Britain were far more conservative and "whites only' in their focus; the KKK hold major influence in this country and the NAZI Party, a growing level of representation because it seemed to be working "over there" so why not put it to work here to help our still floundering economy?
To Christianized (fundamentalist) America, the people of Islam are evil and yet, to the aspects of the Islamic world we are the "great Satan"... who's right?
If it weren't for the Moors and early Islam most of we Western European types would still be ignorant and know nothing of actual science let alone progress and community. Then again, if it weren't for the greed-driven politics of old, the world would not have become explored and new trade cultivated... that same greed however brought about extreme instances of enslavement, genocide, unabashed theft and the destruction of numerous cultures... a lust drive that pandered to the appetite of the "business community" as well as the ruling monarchs/politicians and of course religion... that false idealism that's brought both, hope as well as despair to the world time and again.
So, which is good and which is bad? Robin Hood was viewed as a good and great hero by the people he gave charity to and yet, the politicians & Nobels of the land saw him as a threat to their power and influence; an outlaw on one hand, a savior on the other. The founding fathers of this country are national heroes and yet, the British Crown viewed them as traitors and terrorists...
Yes, there is evil in the world and yes, there are those scenarios in which is seems evil triumphs over good, such as how big business abuses "the people". But the reverse of this is how "the people" continue to patronize big business in order to enjoy the benefits it provides; oil & byproducts for our cars, technology & gadget growth, peace of mind when medical issues arise... we seem willing to support the trade-off and get in bed with the devil, so who are we to say "they" are "evil"... its a very arrogant way of looking at things when you step back and consider the greater truth.
Yes, certain groups seem to be far more brutal and less humane than others but that does not mean they are "evil' just different. Once we learn how to understand and live with each other, we begin creating balance; but the core of the truth is, we can't have life without "death", we can't know what Light is, without Darkness and we can't define who we are and what we are until we learn to view either side of any given issue or trait objectively.
Many people in this nation view me as being "evil" and "godless" because I'm openly gay and live a rather Gnostic/Druidic view when it comes to spirituality which is based on 25+ years of involvement with Paganism, New Age thinking and of course, working as a "Psychic"... even outside the fundamentalist Christian arena, I've seen as being "evil & wrong' because of that last label there; after all, all psychics are crooks, thieves, liars and con-men, right? Yet, my patrons view me in an entirely different light just as I view what I do in that role, as being fair, honest and an obligation... being my brother's keeper, so to speak.
I've offered more than enough examples here and yet, the essence to it all can be summed up in a single word: PERSPECTIVE
14 Oct 2010, 04:09
The great pseudoskeptic Sagan (look what he did to poor Velikovski!
) wrote of a computer model of the prisoner's dilemma, where "group interest" is pitted against "self interest) As I understood the results, the only stable outcome was where group trumps the self, marginally. If self interest were a little stronger, we would have eaten each other.
The problem of group interest is more subtle. Consider the relation of phenotype to malaria resistence versus sickle cell anemia. The distribution of traits is such that the group as whole benefits slightly more from resistence to malaria than it suffers from sickle cell.
Overall, my observations of the universe, life, and even humanity, are of synergy triumphing over entropy to such an extent that we are alive.
As Craig said
"but the core of the truth is, we can't have life without "death", we can't know what Light is, without Darkness" and we can't build without breaking down. Without entropy, no synergy, while without synergy, there is nothing to entropize.
"Good and evil" are false concepts and theological weapons, Scecop. Now, comedy and tragedy, those are real
That personal perception that synergy slightly trumps entropy is the fundamental reason I "do not believe" in a closed universe.
14 Oct 2010, 04:42
This is a bit of a hijack, but are you seriously suggesting that Carl Sagan is a pseudoskeptic? You're going to have to back that up.
14 Oct 2010, 14:41
His treatment of Velikovski was not that of a scientist, but an inquisitor excomminicating a heretic. He felt himself justified in supporting an academic boycott of Velikovski publisher's. I loved Sagan, but I do think he lost it there.
14 Oct 2010, 14:43
My information is based on Robert Anton Wilson's account of the preceedings, and Sagan's own.
15 Oct 2010, 03:53
Sorry if I offended, Arouet, but Rbt. A. Wilson's account of Sagan's persecution of Velikovski really got me mad, and Sagan's own pride in his behavior, and obliviousness to what he was doing, showed his "feet of clay." Again, I admire the man tremendously, but he apparently lost it as badly as the guys who sent Semmelweis, the “savior of mothers” to the loony bin.
Show me the man who doesn't have a flaw.
I admit to crossing a line, perhaps, in mentioning first the worst thing Sagan had done, when it was irrelevant to the discussion. As I said, I still get angry at him for it, since a failure on the very grounds for which I respect him truly annoys me, but since it seems I crossed a line, I apologize for using what was describable as a gratuitous insult as a trick to get attention
Peace Arouet. Love your posts.
04 Feb 2011, 13:45
Perhaps you (OP) as well as I already know the answer to that. I'm sure you believe in an 'afterlife' as well as me. This life is just a test. Look at all of the children who die young and then consider all of the other things you've mentioned for I've repeatedly asked myself these same things including even in prayers (yes I've even lashed out at 'God'). We have freewill. Perhaps that's why according to many studies of afterlife/nde research that many decent people (regardless of beliefs) seem to have more pleasant ndes. From reading some articles on Silver Birch it seems we're not here on earth to have a dream run. Here is a free afterlife book (if you have 2 to 4 hours to kill depending on your reading speed level) so for me that would be 6 hours
. http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/Antho ... Unseen.pdf
Perhaps this book can answer some of these questions. It's a GOOD read.
Maybe there is a bigger reason why the 'physical' universe exists. Perhaps for more reasons than just a 'test'. Maybe the realm we are observing now is required to exist for the stabilty for the entire existence of everything (all dimensions of the universe). Perhaps our more physical dimension is the glue that allows the universe to even exist. I always wondered the same thing on other issues such as gender related hardships, predators hunting prey (the lion obviously doesn't lay with the lamb in our own dimension), evil people being allowed to coexist with decent people (unlike in the afterlife realms supposedly) and why horrible diseases exist including why the f--k do so many people's bodies generate cancer cells?
Again I don't believe that if there is a master creator or designer that it would be omnipotent though it would have immense power. Maybe if the designer broke some of it's own Laws that it used to create itself the universe would cease to function or collapse back into the void of absolute nothingness. I have a theory (personal hypothesis) on this but I'm just spouting nonsense now, forgive me.
04 Jan 2012, 06:26
Interesting that I would find this post. I have just started a blog on this very topic actually.
08 Jan 2012, 09:46
Welcome to the forum. Why not tell us a bit about yourself on the "Introduce Yourself" topic?
08 Jan 2012, 11:54
Because this seemed much more relevant to the discussion. I didn't want to type out my article in a forum post. I do apologize however if said post was viewed as spam. I'm just surfing the net for relevant discussions. Did you enjoy the article?
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