SCEPCOP Forum

OK prof - that's an honest answer - sorry to have pushed you on this one - i actually agree with you as to the WHEN she had the NDE - THIS is the critical point of the whole thing - but something we must consider is like dreams - how long do they actually last ?? - a few moments with lots packed in - or a long time ,maybe even diproptionanty long ?? eg covering the whole procedure time ?? thus giving a chance for some information to be not obtained as claimed ??

never having had one i don't know - there is one classic case you may like to read up on - which concerns a lady who underwent a NDE and allegedly drifted outside the medical room and observed a plimsoll on a ledge that would have been nigh on impossible for her to of seen or even known about - ( i will see if i can find a reference for you its in one of the many books i have so may take a while to find ) anyways up , apparently the claim was later substantiated that there was a plimsoll on the ledge as described by maria ( i think her name was ) - and none of the staff knew it was there ( again apparently ) until the claim was investigated ( if any one has a link that would be appreciated )

the whole subject IS i agree clouded with controversy - but the incident i related that i personally was involved in - leads me to believe there may be more to all this than just hallucination etc

regards

No problem Brett. I can't learn something if I don't look into it so I appreciate the little push.
I might add that during my brief research, it was mentioned somewhere that she had been studying NDE's prior to her surgery. If true, that would diminish the credibility issue a bit. Additionally, her website links to another website that has loads of stuff that makes us skeptics cringe. I don't have the full, detailed explanation for what happened, but I still believe that it wasn't paranormal. And, again, I wouldn't have posted but the irrefutable title made me jump. (Though maybe I shouldn't say that...)

ProfWag,
Nice article, but it makes pompous assertions when it says that Pam's NDE could not have occurred during the flat brainline. The author wasn't there and can't know that. It's another case of skeptics pretending to know more than the people who were there. Totally pompous.

It also speculates and then takes those speculations as facts. Dr. Sabom is no idiot.

Scepcop, if you'll notice, I never said I was an expert in this field of study. Anyone who claims to be in all facets of the paranormal has much more time on their hands than I do. However, as you mention, there may not be substantiative proof that her OBE didn't happen while flatlined. Consequently, there is not substantiative proof that it did. Hence, your title of this thread states that it is "Irrefutable!" That is not factual and since you claim that you are so fair, then you should admit that fact. It is refutable.
Wag

I agree: the professor is obviously biased. This is most evident in how he tends to ignore the really compelling evidence which in the very least demonstrates a non-local conscious awareness/perception. Yes, we cannot know for sure, for the most part, when the OBE or NDE occurred in terms of an exact time, but then again, psi experiments have demonstrated that precognition has empirical support which further allows one to theorize that perhaps we are non-local conscious "beings" during our NDE state(s), but that's highly speculative, and I admit that. However, and getting back on topic, if it's true that Pam "heard" the conversation regarding her small veins/arteries after having had the earplugs inserted into her ears, then that's compelling evidence that she experienced auditory-like perception during a time in which she shouldn't have; speech she most likely would not have heard via her ears, wherein several one hundred-decibel-per-second clicks were played--very loud and fast sounds (Tart 2009; pg 232). While it's not proof that consciousness can perceive, or even continue its existence, while the brain is clinically "dead," it at the very least provides evidence in support of a form of psi, in this case it being a form of telepathy (i.e., she psychically perceived their "speech" about her veins/arteries being small). So, unless one or more persons is/are lying about the events in this case, I believe her case provides good anecdotal evidence in support of human psi faculties, at the very least.