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Why do some have NDE's near death, while others don't?

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Why do some have NDE's near death, while others don't?

Postby Maddogkull » 18 Mar 2010, 03:04

New to this website, first post so hopefully i get some good input. Looking forward on being a member on this forum.

My question is: Why do some people dont have a NDE at death, while others do? Anyone might know some reasons why?
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Nostradamus » 18 Mar 2010, 03:13

Welcome maddogkull. I really don't know. I hope someone posts.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 18 Mar 2010, 04:10

Good question. Maybe Eteponge has some ideas.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 18 Mar 2010, 04:31

Hopefully this has always confused me. I read A LOT of NDE 's online and they seem amazing. But in April 1997, my uncle had a heart attack, and died for about 4 minutes I think it might have been longer. I'll ask him for clarification later, but anyway, he got revived after a bunch of attempts with the paddles. He said basically he didn’t see no spirits or no white light. It was like he felt the pain, and felt himself slipping out of consciousness, and then he woke up on the operating table. He said he didn’t remember anything. This got me wondering since then why do some people have NDE and some don't. I have never really got an answer for this. Hopefully some people can help me out.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 18 Mar 2010, 04:36

You might want to check this out. This is Eteponge's Blog. He is a moderator here and has done a lot of NDE research.

http://eteponge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ne ... -body.html
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 18 Mar 2010, 05:02

Do you have any idea, were on his site, shows why some people dont have any NDE's becasue so far i can't find a single thing talking about that. Thank you for the link though.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 18 Mar 2010, 05:04

That link should have taken you to the NDE information. As I read that page, Eteponge did mention something about some having and others not having NDE.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 18 Mar 2010, 05:25

If I am not mistaken somone has already tired to debunk that article :lol:

A well written article, but one which does very little justice to biological and medical fact. For instance, the Pam Reynolds experience so often referred to is readily described as a result of the changes in her body function due to the operation.
See: http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/reynolds.html

The near death experiences resulting from cardiac arrest are likewise readily explained by the changes in body function resulting from cardiac arrest and cardiac resuscitation.
See: http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/lommel.html

Titus Rivas is a clever man, but wites exclusively from the viewpoint of a believer in the paranormal, and proposes an account of the experiences of Pam Reynolds which does not correspond with that written by Michael Sabom in "Light & Darkness".

The above websites give an alternative medical view based upon solid human research which may prove a useful supplement to the otherwise quite reasonable article above.


Maybe I am wrong. :lol:
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 22 Mar 2010, 01:36

I think what i just wrote in that quote shows that this has been debunked
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 22 Mar 2010, 01:36

I think what i just wrote in that quote shows that this has been debunked
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Eteponge » 12 Apr 2010, 14:16

Maddogkull wrote:If I am not mistaken somone has already tired to debunk that article :lol:

A well written article, but one which does very little justice to biological and medical fact. For instance, the Pam Reynolds experience so often referred to is readily described as a result of the changes in her body function due to the operation.
See: http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/reynolds.html

The near death experiences resulting from cardiac arrest are likewise readily explained by the changes in body function resulting from cardiac arrest and cardiac resuscitation.
See: http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/lommel.html

Titus Rivas is a clever man, but wites exclusively from the viewpoint of a believer in the paranormal, and proposes an account of the experiences of Pam Reynolds which does not correspond with that written by Michael Sabom in "Light & Darkness".

The above websites give an alternative medical view based upon solid human research which may prove a useful supplement to the otherwise quite reasonable article above.


Maybe I am wrong. :lol:

I think what i just wrote in that quote shows that this has been debunked

Nope, you are wrong. The person who posted that on my Blog was Gerald Woerlee, noted NDE Skeptic, his arguments have been torn apart by Michael Prescott, Markus Hesse, Dr. Jeffrey Long, and various NDE Researchers.

Here are some examples of this ...

http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... blues.html

Excerpt:

"I've now had a chance to read the two Skeptiko interviews with Gerald Woerlee and Jeffrey Long regarding near-death experiences. One of Dr. Woerlee's main points is that people undergoing cardiac arrest are often given heart massage, which restores some flow of blood to the brain and thus might allow some degree of consciousness.

As Alex Tsakiris points out in one of his his questions, heart massage is often not applied except as a last resort after defibrillation has failed, so it is not clear that heart massage is a factor in the majority of NDEs. And there are NDEs in which the person reports being out of body long before any CPR is administered.

Another question raised by both Alex Tsakiris and Jeffrey Long is whether the minimal blood flow to the brain -- technically known as hypoperfusion -- would be sufficient to produce the unusually clear awareness and perception reported by most near-death experiencers. Typically, people who report an out-of-body experience during an NDE say that their thinking was sharper and more focused than usual, and that their perception -- especially their visual perception -- was unusually vivid, allowing them to see even the smallest details and sometimes to see in every direction at once.

I would be skeptical of the claim that someone who suffers an interruption of blood flow to the brain, and then has this blood flow restored to a minimal level by heart massage, would find his consciousness and visual perception enhanced. I think it is more likely that consciousness (if any) and visual perception (if any) would be compromised and unsatisfactory."


An excellent follow-up to this was posted in the comments section by poster Markus Hesse ...

"Michael, brain-stem (in)activity is easily gauged by attempting to trigger a series of basic reflex actions, which as you probably know is standard ER protocol and is performed by default on patients receiving emergency medical attention, Dr Lommel points this out:

"You can prove that the brain stem is no longer functioning because it regulates our basic reflexes, such as the pupil response and swallowing reflex, which no longer respond. So you can easily stick a tube down someone's throat. The respiratory centre also shuts down. If the individual is not reanimated within five to 10 minutes, their brain cells are irreversibly damaged."... See More

Here is more Lommel commentary on this aspect:

".....The fact that in a cardiac arrest loss of cortical function precedes the rapid loss of brainstem activity lends further support to this view."

"From studies of induced cardiac arrest we know that in our Dutch prospective study of patients who survived cardiac arrest (Van Lommel et al., 2001), as well as in the American (Greyson, 2003) and English study (Parnia et al., 2001), not only total lack of electrical activity of the cortex must have been the only possibility, but also the abolition of brain-stem activity."

"However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness. And because of the occasional and verifiable out-of-body experiences, like the one involving the dentures in our study, we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last seconds of cardiac arrest. So we have to come to the surprising conclusion that during cardiac arrest NDE is experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem"

"What you see when you induce cardiac arrest is that within one second the blood flow to the brain is zero centimeters per second. Within two seconds, it stops totally. After an average of 6.54 seconds, the first ischemic changes show on the EEG, with attenuation of the waves. After 10 to 20 seconds, you have a flat- line EEG, which means the electrical activity of the cortex is gone. The brain stem reflexes- such as the gag reflex and whether the pupils stay dilated - and the medulla oblongata - where the center of breathing is - stops. So that's the functional loss of your total brain. Well, with a heart attack, if it occurs on the coronary care unit, it takes between 60 and 120 seconds before circulation is restored. If it occurs on the general ward, it takes two to five minutes. If it occurs in the street, it usually exceeds five to 10 minutes, and 90 percent of those people will die."

Prof. Peter Fenwick reports the same of his own research:

"Let's look at the physiological state of the brain and body at the time of reported NDEs. No detectable cardiac output, no respiratory output - they certainly weren't breathing. Neither did they have any brain stem reflexes - in other words they was no activity whatsoever in the brain."

"The first point is that signs of cardiac arrest are the same as clinical death. There is no detectable cardiac output, no respiratory effort, and brainstem reflexes are absent. If you are in this state and I put a tube down your throat, you will not cough. You will have dilated pupils. Your blood pressure has fallen to zero. You are, in fact, clinically dead. Even if I start cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), I cannot get your blood pressure any higher than 30 millimetres of mercury, and this is not going to produce an adequate blood flow to your brain."

"When you are fully unconscious, you show the signs of clinical death which is no respiration, no cardiac output, fully dilated pupils showing that your brain stem is not functioning and that is the clinical criteria of death."

Leading NDE researcher Dr Sam Parnia says the same in one of the papers I just uploaded:

".....This is termed the delayed hypoperfusion phase and is thought to occur due to a disturbed coupling between brain function, metabolism and blood flow [31]. Clinically, these observations are supported by the loss of brainstem reflexes such as the gag reflex that indicate a loss of brainstem function, which normally activates the cortical areas via the thalamus."

"As seen these experiences appear to be occurring at a time when global cerebral function can at best be described as severely impaired, and at worse non-functional."

Also worth pointing out, from the same paper:

"An alternative explanation is that the experiences reported from cardiac arrest, may actually be arising at a time when consciousness is either being lost, or regained, rather than from the actual cardiac arrest period itself. Any cerebral insult leads to a period of both anterograde and retrograde amnesia In fact memory is a very sensitive indicator of brain injury and the length of amnesia before and after unconsciousness is a way of determining the severity of the injury. Therefore, events that occur just prior to or just after the loss of consciousness would not be expected to be recalled. At any rate recovery following a cerebral insult is confusional and cerebral function as measured by EEG has in many cases been shown not to return until many tens of minutes or even a few hours after successful resuscitation."


In addition, Dr. Jeffrey Long, NDE Researcher, tackled Gerald Woerlee's arguments directly in the following podcast ...

http://www.skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long_ta ... afterlife/

What my own article points out on the topic of not everyone having an NDE is this ...

Only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE, while the remaining 82% do not. Even under the exact same conditions.

"Our most striking finding was that Near-Death Experiences do not have a physical or medical root. After all, 100 per cent of the patients suffered a shortage of oxygen, 100 per cent were given morphine-like medications, 100 per cent were victims of severe stress, so those are plainly not the reasons why 18 per cent had Near-Death Experiences and 82 per cent didn't. If they had been triggered by any one of those things, everyone would have had Near-Death Experiences." (Van Lommel 1995)

The point being, if anyone of those things, dying brain, etc, had been the trigger, they all would have had NDEs who suffered the same degree of lack of oxygen, but because only 18% did, it's obviously not the trigger for the NDE experience.

I'd like to clarify that even though only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE (all under the same medical conditions), the LONGER one is clinically dead, the higher the chance of being brought back with an NDE. Those who were clinically dead longer than several minutes have a far higher chance of coming back with an NDE than those who were clinically dead for only a minute or two.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Nostradamus » 12 Apr 2010, 20:43

Calling them torn apart is hardly correct. The issue of NDEs is disputed. There are two camps with claims and counter claims. Both sides are trying to line up the evidence to support their side.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 13 Apr 2010, 05:12

Have you ever heard of the DMT theory and that is the reason we hallucinate before death? That right before we die we get a massive dose of DMT realised (read The Spirit Molecule) before we die. And that is what makes us hallucinate during an NDE.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Eteponge » 13 Apr 2010, 05:16

Nostradamus wrote:Calling them torn apart is hardly correct. The issue of NDEs is disputed. There are two camps with claims and counter claims. Both sides are trying to line up the evidence to support their side.

Yes, torn apart, and I stand by that. He makes claims that are directly refuted by counter evidence and counter data. He claims that heart massage during cardiac arrest can account for sufficient blood flow for a conscious NDE to take place. However, he ignores that in the majority of cases where cardiac arrest takes place, this action is not performed. And also, it has been pointed out that the experiences of people suffering from lack of oxygen and reduced blood flow do not at all match those associated with the NDE. He claims that even when there is no brain activity registered, that there could still be something kicking around in there. But the problem with that, is that EEG monitoring is just one way of showing no brain activity, he ignores that many of these same patients have fixed dilated pupils, no gag reflex, and other tell-tell signs of no brain activity, which were checked as standard procedure. All of these things were pointed out indepth and in detail in the sources I provided.

Within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brain waves go flat, you get fixed dilated pupils, no gag reflex, and other tell-tell signs of no brain activity, the brain is not functioning and you aren't going to get electrical activity back until the heart restarts, the brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you wouldn't remember them.

And of course, none of this touches upon ANY of the Verifiable Aspects of NDEs. Seeing Verifiable Objects / People / Events / Overhearing Conversations / Etc, at and around the no brain activity body and even at significant distances away from their no brain activity body, Seeing or Speaking to Deceased Relatives that they never knew about or never met before who they later identify from Family Pictures and Other Sources, Visual Veridical NDEs of the Blind, Meeting people in their NDE that they thought were alive but in fact had recently died, Etc. You know, all the intriguing verifiable stuff regarding the NDE.

Here is an excellent short list of arguments by IANDS...

* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?

* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?

* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?

Here's an intriguing brief example case from Dr. Pim Van Lommel's files ...

"During my cardiac arrest I had a extensive experience (…) and later I saw, apart from my deceased grandmother, a man who had looked at me lovingly, but whom I did not know. More than 10 years later, at my mother’s deathbed, she confessed to me that I had been born out of an extramarital relationship, my father being a Jewish man who had been deported and killed during the second World War, and my mother showed me his picture. The unknown man that I had seen more than 10 years before during my NDE turned out to be my biological father.” (A case documented by Dr. Pim Van Lommel)

While there have been some people who have tried to tear apart several individual Veridical NDEs (by pulling a purely speculative, "They coulda woulda shoulda done this or that, therefore they must've, because it can't be, therefore it isn't") you'll easily find counter-sources that easily tear these skeptical examinations apart.

An example is an attack I've read on Maria's famous "Shoe on the Roof" case. For those unaware, here is Maria's account ...

"The woman had been floating near the ceiling looking down on her body, during her crisis. She was able to provide precise details of her resuscitation and about the people in the room - where they stood and what they did, what each said - as well as the placement of machinery and the movement of the paper on the floor from the electrocardiogram. These details could be verified, and all of them were.

But that wasn't all. Maria mentioned how she had moved away from her lofty perch to a point outside her hospital room where she could look down at the emergency room entrance. She described the curvature of the driveway, vehicles driving in one direction, and the automatic doors. She remembered staring closely at an object on a window ledge about three stories above the ground. It was a man's dark blue tennis shoe, well-worn, scuffed on the left side where the little toe would go. The shoelace was caught under the heel." - P.M.H Atwater, "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences

Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp was present in the room when Maria was resuscitated, and Maria recounted this experience directly to her. She did not believe Maria, and told her it was just a hallucination, but Maria was insistent. So, Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp went up to the third floor, and found the tennis shoe, on top of a window ledge, she had to reach up and around to grab it. You could obviously only see any details on it if you were staring at it directly from above, as Maria claimed. She went back down to Maria's floor, asked her again to describe the shoe, and pulled out the shoe. Dr. Kimberly Clark Sharp became an NDE Researcher after that incident.

Now, 10 years after this, a team of debunkers went to the hospital, and claimed that Maria could have stood at one of the far corner windows in the room, and seen the tennis shoe far away from that angle, or overheard one of the hospital staff talking about seeing a blue tennis shoe on the third floor ledge. (Both of which, there is zero evidence happened.) Here's the follow up to that ...

"A team of scientific debunkers investigated the blue-shoe case. They took photographs to prove that Maria could have seen the shoe from the window. They could not explain, however, how she saw the scuff mark and the shoelace caught under the heel, especially since she was confined to bed at the time. Nor could they account for most of the other details she saw while out-of-body." - P.M.H Atwater, "The Complete Idiots Guide To Near-Death Experiences"

She was confined to bed the entire hospital stay leading up to her cardiac arrest, and even if she stood and walk around and looked out the far corner window, all you would see is an intelligible blue blur, no details. And let's say for a moment that some hospital staff did mention seeing a blue shoe on the third floor ledge (which makes no sense), but let's say something like that happened, you couldn't see any details on the shoe unless you were outside the window ledge, looking down at it. I can't imagine a hospital staff worker saying, "I saw a blue tennis shoe on the third floor ledge, with a scuff mark on the big toe, and the shoelace caught under the heel, I just went outside on the dangerous ledge and looked at it! Isn't that cool?!?" And even if something like that could have happened, why haven't they stepped forward? None of these skeptical explanations have evidence, or fit the known facts. Fail.

And some skeptics have given snipplets of bizzare NDEs, out of their full context (and usually the source of these are Christian Fundamentalist Anti-NDE Books), to suggest that all NDEs must be just crazy hallucinations.

For example, one article I wrote said that a kid saw a "video gaming wizard" during his NDE, instead of God, and that this means that all NDEs are hallucination. So, I tracked down the actual source material, a video of this kid telling Dr. Melvin Morse about his NDE. The kid explains that he met a being who looked like a tall wizard, but he couldn't see his face, who spoke with great power, and told him "struggle and you will live", and he realized the being was God. That's his account. Quite different from the "kid sees video gaming wizard instead of God" statement I saw from the Skeptic's article.

There are still good skeptical questions regarding the NDE, but when I see most of the skeptical websites and skeptical articles regurgitating the same easily rebutted arguments, it just gets silly after awhile.
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Re: Why do some people don't have NDE at death, while others do?

Postby Maddogkull » 13 Apr 2010, 05:17

New Article saying Carbon doxide might be the reason.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 192448.htm
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