Discussion about UFO's, Aliens, ET's, Alien Abductions, Ancient Astronaut theories, etc.
Very interesting information indeed, August. I'll absorb and come up with more questions.
"THEY" = the typical non-believer, it's that simple.
Yes, I will accept a person's testimony so long as it falls within certain levels of reason. When the stories get too far-fetched or don't fit common details UFOologists keep record of, I have to blow the person off. Something August brings up though is "rare" as far of public information is concerned; the fact that certain family bloodlines seem to attract these entities. This is something that ties to some very ancient records pertaining to "Heavenly Visitors" and how they helped expedite human evolution via their own DNA contributions. We're talking about concepts shared in Pigmy legend as well as that sewn into other "myths" around the world. Ironically, it is likewise a key part in certain"Wiccan" traditions where the idea of "old blood" is strongly studied; persons of specific family lines that share some very specific physical peculiarities, etc. are viewed as being true-born "Witches" -- they stand closer to the ancestral blood which is tied directly to "Alien" visitors -- the Gods, the Children of Heaven or whichever other mythological divine being you wish to choose, there are dozen of such tales in which celestial being procreated with the inhabitants of this planet over 10,000 years ago. The tall tales are too common to ignore and when we look at what August says here, it would sound as if he's got some credence to things even without all the tangible materials 99% of all skeptics will find a way to discount anyway. . . they have too in that they don't want to believe in anything phenomenal. . . or so it seems.
HOWEVER. . . August could just be well read on obscure stuff like the occult, ET Theories, etc. there's a ton of material out there that can be devoured in a very inexpensive manner and from a year of such study anyone with a gift for gab could easily enough stitch together a story that sounds quite close to those researchers give credit to as being authentic vs. personal delusion. While most skeptics would instantly go to that "this person is deluded" position the minute they say they've been abducted, it's typically due to lack of personal study on the subject by way of the more reputable researchers that investigate such claims. You can find them here and there, usually hiding in some overstuffed room at noted Universities; it's been years since I've had anything to do with this sort of thing so I'm totally amiss as to who is who now days or where to find them. I believe however, there is a gent the lived in the Tacoma, WA area that was always talking with pilots who had encounters they weren't allowed to make official reports on (to claim you had a "UFO" encounter can cost you your career and reputation, especially given the amount of military influence this region has). The whole region around Seattle & Tacoma is however known for it's UFO sightings just as parts of Florida and the Nevada dessert are.
Ok. . . I've lost my thoughts so I guess that's it for the moment.
Okay, Craig, thanks for that. Feel free to ask me anything about my experiences. And, as far as investigators and researchers go, I have had the best there is investigate our family's encounters, and he determined our case was "very important".
Personally, I won't say that a person is "dilluted" if they think they have been abducted. It's a quite serious matter and many people are absolutely convinced of their experience.
I do find the subject quite fascinating--whether I think ET was actually involved or not. We (or "they" as Craig put us), should never just pass off testimony as unfounded and those that do are "pseudo-skeptics" in my opinion. Could there be a more "earthly" explanation? Absolutely. but that doesn't mean that the person who had the encounter is wrong or lying about what happened. We need to investigate these cases thoroughly which is why I began asking questions.
I think we're seeing more eye to eye on things than it may seem at first. As one that is almost constantly being given the 3rd degree about his experiences and perspectives on things "outrageous" however, I have a deep empathy/sympathy for others put through the same set of wringers. It's simply not fun and tends to get cruel though the naysayers or "doubters" out there don't see it as such, mostly in that that can't put themselves in the shoes of someone that has such an encounter.
When I do my Seance shows I use a lot of bit stuff I call "Side Effects" -- manifestations of movement of apparitions that only one or two guests will witness. This may sound like an odd thing to do but what I sell is a Paranormal EXPERIENCE and to deliver this I have to put a minority within the group in the shoes of the psychic -- to see and know something happened and being powerless when it comes to explaining and proving it -- this really is what people like me experience, by putting show guests into that position I'm able to help them wake-up to that particular "truth" and hopefully through them, get other "skeptical minds" to reconsider their actions and attitudes.
How would you react to a situation in which you're gathered around a table with 12 others, holding hands and after a very brief black-out, you find that a member of the group has vanished, leaving nothing but ash on their seat?
No, no one else is "in on it" (outside the person that vanishes, that is) and Yes, it's a trick. But how can you explain it away, you were holding that person's hand as was the individual on the other side of the now missing person. . . who mysteriously appears in the photo of the deceased individual that's been in full view all evening
While this is a major piece, it should give you an idea as to the level of impossibility and drama things can get and how it will imprint on your psyche.
While I won't say how I do this I will say that the method is in print and easily discovered after a bit of footwork and a small cash investment of about $100.00 or so (I forget the current price on it).
What if I staged this same thing but instead of speaking with the deceased I was summoning ET and his chums?
I've gotten a bit off track (again) but hopefully you get what I'm driving at; how I'll intentionally put people in the position of having that impossible, indescribable encounter and leaving them hang with a memory they'll be talking about for the rest of their days and having to deal with the intense questioning their skeptical friends will put them through.
Is if Cruel?
I don't think so, they paid for a Psychic Experience and I've given them one
Back in my early military days, I was famous around the Keesler AFB dorms for doing seances where I would summon a spirit to enter through the window (3rd floor, mind you). Shortly thereafter I would get a loud knock on the window as if someone were knocking on the door. That could scare the bejeazus our most anyone.
You guys are funny, you talk about the need to investigate, and I'm right here giving you the opportunity to investigate, but you don't. I have learned a great deal about the nature of these alien beings, their actions, their abilities, their ships, and I believe I can even shed some light on their intentions and their agenda. This information did not come easy, these ordeals were difficult to deal with, both at the time, and ever since. And all you have to do is ask. But you'd rather prattle about phony seances. You have displayed a stunning lack of intellectual curiosity, at least the jerks in the skeptics forums pressed for details and focused on finding gaffes or inconsistencies in my encounters, they followed up with the newspaper and television accounts of my encounters, they sought out the transcript of when Budd Hopkins discussed my case on Larry King live on CNN. You guys seem content to tell each other your views over and over again. The fact you both chose dogs for your avatars suddenly make more sense to me.
I'm starting to get a sense of why you weren't very popular on the other sites!
I tend to not get too involved with personal annecdotes of fellow forum members because it inevitably leads to hurt feelings if the person isn't immediately believed. That's why I prefer to discuss the scientific studies, which while I don't have a scientific background can at least usually be discussed objectively by all parties.
But I'll break my rule and ask you: how are we to tell the difference between your story being a well written fictional account vs. a true account? How are we to tell over the internet if your interpretation of your experiences is correct?
Now, I'm not calling you a liar or deluded. I'm asking what manner would we have to tell, over an internet forum?
That's the problem when dealing with the personal stories: how are they to be verified? Frankly, the question is: why should we believe you.
Please try to avoid being offended by these questions: forget about it being you: pretend I'm just talking about someone else with a similar story. I believe in skepticism: which means witholding belief absent reliable evidence. One anonymous person's story over the internet just isn't that reliable - EVEN IF TRUE. We have no way of evaluating your story.
But what I would suggest, if you're interested in getting a discussion going, is linking to the previous threads, so members can at least read what ground has already been covered.
First, my account is first-hand eye-witness testimonial evidence, to couch it in terms of personal "anecdotes" is a cliche intended to minimize my tesimony. Eyewitness testimony is the cornerstone of our system of justice. People are sentenced to death based solely on eyewitness testimony.
Nothing to be learned from an actual participant in alien contact of the fourth-kind? Nope, you prefer to discuss the "scientific studies". What scientific studies of first-hand alien contact are you talking about, specifically? Any in the last couple of years? 5 years? A decade? I must have missed those.
Then you ask me repeatedly how you can tell if what I say is true. You ask; "how are we to tell the difference?" "How are we to tell over the internet?" "What manner would we have to tell?" "Is your interpretation correct?" "How are they to be verified?" and finally, "Why should we believe you?"
Well, I had to think long and hard about how to answer these questions. Basically, you have to realize, this is your problem, not mine. The reality of my family's experiences are not affected either way. I suggest you use the God-given ability to reason that most of us are born with, Arouet, and make up your own mind. I'm sure when Paul Revere rode through Boston, some people didn't believe him that the British were coming. But it wasn't Paul Revere's responsibility to convince everyone that it was true. Nor is it mine. Although it's a bit grandiose to compare myself to Paul Revere, the alien situation is a hell of a lot more important than that british invasion was.
Yes, people are sentenced to death based on eyewitness testimony - which is one reason why the death penalty should be abolished. I'm a lawyer myself, so I'm well aware just how unreliable such testimony can be. Not that it is always wrong mindyou - it's not. But that's not what we mean by unreliable. It's unreliable because it is often wrong, and it is often very difficult to sort out what is true or not by such testimony. People's perceptions are often incorrect, their memories fail, etc. etc. etc.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying there are scientific studies of this. My point was that I prefer to discuss scientific studies with people because its hard to get your feelings hurt that way. Discussing people's personal experiences - such as yours - is bound to cause hurt feelings if we don't just accept your version of events. I was just talking about my personal preferences for discussion.
Right, but you spoke of skepticism. Skepticism is a method of thought. It's a method of evaluating propositions by way of reliable evidence. In a discussion with you about your experiences, we really can't process it skeptically, or at least not very skeptically. All we can do is ask you questions and try to decide if your answers ring true or not. We can't really evaluate any of your claims objectively, because we don't have any corroborating evidence. So I was asking you how you felt we should evaluate your claims? What skeptical methods could we use to verify them? The answer is: there aren't any (aside from us flying down to you, interviewing all you family members, examing the location of the abductions, etc. etc. )
I hear you. That said, you've come here asking people to evaluate your claims.
Really, it's next to impossible to investigate a claim such as yours over the internet. To properly investigate, we would have to go to the location, talk to your family, look at the physical evidence, etc. If I remember, the most recent contact was your brother from 15 years ago. That does make it a little difficult to investigate, wouldn't you think?
But I'll ask a couple more questions. You answered earlier that your contacts were in neighborhoods and some during the day. Did neighbors witness anything? Do you remember any loud or significant noise? Have any of the contacts resulted in them explaining to you what they discovered? Your communication with ETs was essentially through mental telepathy. Are you a staunch believer in human to human ESP?
Let me ask you this. . . How are we to "investigate" something that has no tangible materials?
We can't interview the visitors, no one seems to have implants or scars that can't be explained away. We only have your story and while I have a tendency to give people a hint of credit based on their story I must likewise consider their character, you statement in the above makes me believe you're an antagonist that just like to stir the pot on this particular issue.
Anyone that read's Sci-Fi or those publications that promote tales such as your own alongside the X-Files and related broadcasts can stitch together something that sounds semi-legit but unless their actions, attitudes and reputation fit a particular niche, it's only logical to assume they're another hoaxer pulling our leg. You see, most of those tales that come off as being "legit" involve people that aren't chasing sensationalism and in many cases, don't want to talk about it outside of therapy and with family if that. More than anything else, they aren't out trying to push people into a "debate" for lack of a better term, in regards to their claims. If anything these folks are usually uncertain and want answers so as to know they aren't loosing their marbles. . . there's been a few exceptions to this pattern but not many.
The hole in your story. . . at least the loose thread most skeptics will pull on so as to unravel your tale, is how it flows through your entire family. If that were the case an investigator would want to speak with all involved and in person both, privately and as a group. They would want to bring in their own psychologists and maybe a hypnotist so as to look beneath the layers of the various experiences; we're talking about months if not years of interviews and the need for a sizable budget. . . I know I can't afford to make that kind of investment nor am I willing to put the amount of time into such a study. . . I would doubt anyone else here would either, we all have a life to live. On the other hand, if one of us got captured by your little grey friends all of the sudden, or you could arrange for them to drop in on all of us here. . . well, we might change our minds and attitude on things.
BTW. . . my shift in position here stems from that quote and the antagonistic tone it seems to offer. There's no quicker way to turn me off and make me doubt/question things.
Welcome to Team "They" Craig!!!
ALL people--believers, skeptics, or whatnot, should ALWAYS question and ask for hard evidence. There's no one I loved as much in life as my Grandfather and I trusted him explicitly. But even his memory, mind, or whatever was not infalible.
There's virtually ALWAYS one side, the other side, and the full truth to a story.
Craig, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You try and tell me that 'legit' abductees only talk about their experiences in therapy of with family? Nonsense, where's the facts that back up that nugget of wisdom? They never engage in debates? That we are all "uncertain"? More nonsense. What research led you to that conclusion? You're talking out your other orifice.
All abductees are worried they are "loosing" their marbles? First, it's spelled 'losing', as any fourth-grader will inform you. Your frequent miss-spelling lead me to draw conclusions about your intelligence. Second, this is again untrue. I'd like to know how many abductees you spoke with before coming to this conclusion? You say there have "been a few exceptions to this pattern, but not many". Oh really? Show me that study that revealed this "pattern", what research was this? Or is it simply the uninformed opinion of a guy who has trouble with rudimentary spelling.
Then you tell me the "hole in my story" is that it involves my whole family. This establishes you as completely uninformed. And as far as investigators, the most established, respected and important alien abduction expert in the world investigated our case quite thoroughly, thank you very much.
You want to meet an alien? Trust me, nothing would make me happier than you being abducted by aliens too. Then you could know what it feels like to talk to people who still manage to deny reality. You have seventy years of evidence of aliens in the modern era, if you've done more that a cursory examination, the evidence is overwhelming. Anyone still on the fence, undecided has only themselves to blame. Denial on that scale is inexcusable.
Sorry August, but I have to agree with Craig and Arouet. You've come to this forum with the title that you've been viciously attacked in two skeptic forums. However, after re-reading what Craig wrote and what you wrote, it appears that the opposite is true in this forum. Craig was not "viciously" attacking you and your response certainly was not warranted by his post. In my opinion, we've all been quite mature with you and your posts.
It is true that I am not in your shoes and I could only guess that I, too, would be quite defensive if I was convinced my story was factual and was questioned by others. However, from an outsider's point of view, your story IS quite sensational and although there is some evidence that abductions are factual (presented primarily from Hopkins and Mack among others), there is also significant evidence to suggest there is a more "earthly" explanation for abductions.
Again, as we've tried to point out to you, it is virtually impossible to do any kind of research in your story--especially if significant time is spent worrying about how another person on the forum spells something.
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