Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

[ProfWag]

You first began by demanding a controlled experiment to eliminate trickery.
You were then presented a controlled experiment.

No I wasn't

[Indigo Child]

The compass needle always moves as if deflected by a magnet. Notice in every performance he has to either touch the object in the case of metal or with a compass get very close. It's things like this that should raise a red flag and cause anyone to say somethings fishy.

One of Gellers measured abilities by the SRI magnometer test was the ability to generate magnetic fields comparable to the Earth's magnetic field.

[Indigo Child]

Anything after those two facts is up for discussion and debate. I'm sure that each side has plenty of input that may or may not be to the liking of the opposition. How well that input is presented makes or breaks how a topic will flow.

Unfortunately, this is the crux of the problem. Discussion and debate is not taking place. This is completely
one sided: I provide the evidence to be discussed and the skeptics here constantly doubt it. It is like talking
to a child putting his hands over his ear and shouting repeatedly, "I can't hear you" I have presented these skeptics
with all kinds of evidence scientific empirical evidence, rational philosophical evidence, phenonenological evidence,
and the response has been consistent, "there is no evidence" Look in every thread where the paranormal is being discussed
and a a skeptic has posted it, the response is the same. Where is the discussion and the debate?

There cannot be any discussion and debate until these skeptics actually start engaging with what is being said to them.
If we just let them do their own thing, you will find many people that we need at this forum will be alienated from saying. There
is nothing more annoying than to have a pseudoskeptic constantly jump in and tell you, "there is no evidence" I really do not see
the constructive value any of these skeptics are providing to this forum.

Fundamentalists are never constructive.

[ProfWag]

I agree for the most part Indigo. So if you would like a mature debate, don't use words such as "conclusive evidence" when, if fact, it is not conclusive. Submit the evidence and let's discuss the evidence. However, when I see the words "conclusive" pertaining to anything paranormal in the same sentence, I'm going to take notice.

And, if I may add, it should be incredibly wrong for just skeptics to question the words "conclusive" and something "paranormal" in the same sentence. Believers should know better as well and if they don't know that, then please don't blame us skeptics. Educate them properly.

[really?]

The compass needle always moves as if deflected by a magnet. Notice in every performance he has to either touch the object in the case of metal or with a compass get very close. It's things like this that should raise a red flag and cause anyone to say somethings fishy.

One of Gellers measured abilities by the SRI magnometer test was the ability to generate magnetic fields comparable to the Earth's magnetic field.

Do you ever do any fact checking ? Evidently the answer is no. Here are some facts then

The strength of the field at the Earth's surface ranges from less than < 30 microteslas (0.3 gauss) in an area including most of South America and South Africa to over 60 microteslas (0.6 gauss) around the magnetic poles in northern Canada and south of Australia, and in part of Siberia.

Alnico alloys make strong permanent magnets, and can be magnetized to produce strong magnetic fields. Of the more commonly available magnets, only rare-earth magnets such as neodymium and samarium-cobalt are stronger. Alnico magnets produce magnetic field strength at their poles as high as 1500 gauss (0.15 tesla), or about 3000 times the strength of Earth's magnetic field.

Neodymium magnets have stronger magnetic field strengths. A button sized Neodymium magnet can have a field strength of 1 Tesla.

1.6 T or 16 kG x Earth's

You see I hope, small magnets could have been used by Geller during his time spent with Targ and Puthoff and almost certainly since then.

[Indigo Child]

Here is why the explanation does not work.

* The Neodymium magnet produces a a magnetic field 3000 times greater than the Earth magnetic field.
Geller results were only comparable to the earth magnetic field
* The magnometer would have detected the hidden magnets and showed it right away. However, there is
a delay before the magnetic field is generated. His hands are empty and his shirts sleeves rolled up.

[Indigo Child]

The report directly from the researchers themselves on the experiments:

Magnometer experiment:

"In another experiment Geller attempted to influence a magnetometer, either directly or by generating a magnetic field. The full-scale sensitivity of the instrument was 0.3 gauss. Throughout the experiment Geller's hand did not come into contact with the instrument. The magnetometer itself was used as a probe to go over his hands and person to make sure that there were no magnetic objects in his hands or on him.
Geller had no apparent difficulty in influencing the magnetometer. He caused fluctuations - almost full-scale in certain cases - whose direction was uncorrelated with the motion of his hands. He was very interested in the experiments we were doing because he had never taken part in laboratory work of this kind before. "

The hidden object can experiment:

"After repetition of this experiment several times, using different objects, Geller was finally able to walk into the room, look at the cans lined up on the table, and just pick up the one that contained the target. "

Source: http://www.urigeller.com/books/geller-papers/g5.htm

All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

[really?]

The report directly from the researchers themselves on the experiments:

Magnometer experiment:

"In another experiment Geller attempted to influence a magnetometer, either directly or by generating a magnetic field. The full-scale sensitivity of the instrument was 0.3 gauss. Throughout the experiment Geller's hand did not come into contact with the instrument. The magnetometer itself was used as a probe to go over his hands and person to make sure that there were no magnetic objects in his hands or on him.
Geller had no apparent difficulty in influencing the magnetometer. He caused fluctuations - almost full-scale in certain cases - whose direction was uncorrelated with the motion of his hands. He was very interested in the experiments we were doing because he had never taken part in laboratory work of this kind before. "

The hidden object can experiment:

"After repetition of this experiment several times, using different objects, Geller was finally able to walk into the room, look at the cans lined up on the table, and just pick up the one that contained the target. "

Source: http://www.urigeller.com/books/geller-papers/g5.htm

All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have been fooled. You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have made any procedural errors. You assume the equipment was in proper working order. These are things you do not have firsthand knowledge of. You ignore the facts I pointed out that Geller has not changed his routine over the last 40 years.You assume a lot and refuse little. You pride yourself a true skeptic yet you make declarative affirming statements [* like this one] when in fact you are expressing only opinion. My opinion of you is you don't practice what you preach.

* All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

[Indigo Child]

You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have been fooled. You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have made any procedural errors. You assume the equipment was in proper working order. These are things you do not have firsthand knowledge of. You ignore the facts I pointed out that Geller has not changed his routine over the last 40 years.You assume a lot and refuse little. You pride yourself a true skeptic yet you make declarative affirming statements [* like this one] when in fact you are expressing only opinion. My opinion of you is you don't practice what you preach.

* All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

Your statements are unfalsfiable. If you know anything about the scientific method, unfalsifable statements
are a waste of time. What are the procedureal errors Targ and Puthoff made? Mere argument from possibility
is not enough to make this case.

What is your counter-hypothesis to explain how Geller did what he did. Please be more specific on what you think
he did do.

[really?]

You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have been fooled. You assume Targ and Puthoff could not have made any procedural errors. You assume the equipment was in proper working order. These are things you do not have firsthand knowledge of. You ignore the facts I pointed out that Geller has not changed his routine over the last 40 years.You assume a lot and refuse little. You pride yourself a true skeptic yet you make declarative affirming statements [* like this one] when in fact you are expressing only opinion. My opinion of you is you don't practice what you preach.

* All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

Your statements are unfalsfiable. If you know anything about the scientific method, unfalsifable statements
are a waste of time. What are the procedureal errors Targ and Puthoff made? Mere argument from possibility
is not enough to make this case.

What is your counter-hypothesis to explain how Geller did what he did. Please be more specific on what you think
he did do.

Where you present during the testings of Geller ? Did I state there were procedural errors no I did not. Did I state anywhere that Geller could not do what you believe he can ? What I have stated is my opinion of Gellers supernatural talents.
You see your problem is you are focusing all your attention on a small series of tests by two people, when you should actually be looking at his total body of work over the course of 40 years.
My counter statement, my conclusion is Geller has been fooling some based upon past and present demonstrations he's given. I think he's using the tricks of misdirection and maybe outright cheating.


Let's change the subject for a moment directly to Geller. I'd like to point out to all you believe Geller is above reproach. Since you think that's true let's read some recent quotes from the man.

In 2007, skeptics observed that Geller appeared to have dropped his claims that he does perform magic tricks. Randi highlighted a quotation from the November 2007 issue of the magazine Magische Welt (Magic World) in which Geller said: "I'll no longer say that I have supernatural powers. I am an entertainer. I want to do a good show. My entire character has changed."[40]

In a later interview, Geller told Telepolis, "I said to this German magazine, so what I did say, that I changed my character, to the best of my recollection, and I no longer say that I do supernatural things. It doesn't mean that I don't have powers. It means that I don't say 'it's supernatural', I say 'I'm a mystifier!' That's what I said. And the sceptics turned it around and said, 'Uri Geller said he's a magician!' I never said that."[41] In that interview, Geller further explained that when he is asked how he does his stunts, he tells children to "Forget the paranormal. Forget spoon bending! Instead of that, focus on school! Become a positive thinker! Believe in yourself and create a target! Go to university! Never smoke! And never touch drugs! And think of success!"[41]

In February 2008, Geller stated in the TV show The Next Uri Geller (a German version of The Successor) that he did not have any supernatural powers, before winking to the camera.

With all he's said about himself recently how can anyone you in particular feel confident he's got powers when he's being so evasive ?

You pride yourself a true skeptic yet on every topic I've read of yours you've consistently affirmed and reaffirmed your belief in the paranormal when the correct position especially on Geller should be inconclusive. Based upon his total body of work I don't see how anyone can absolutely say Geller has beyond reasonable doubt shown paranormal abilities unless you willingly suspend any disbelief. I've noticed you really get pissy when people don't agree with you don't you- why ?

[ProfWag]

The report directly from the researchers themselves on the experiments:

Magnometer experiment:

"In another experiment Geller attempted to influence a magnetometer, either directly or by generating a magnetic field. The full-scale sensitivity of the instrument was 0.3 gauss. Throughout the experiment Geller's hand did not come into contact with the instrument. The magnetometer itself was used as a probe to go over his hands and person to make sure that there were no magnetic objects in his hands or on him.
Geller had no apparent difficulty in influencing the magnetometer. He caused fluctuations - almost full-scale in certain cases - whose direction was uncorrelated with the motion of his hands. He was very interested in the experiments we were doing because he had never taken part in laboratory work of this kind before. "

The hidden object can experiment:

"After repetition of this experiment several times, using different objects, Geller was finally able to walk into the room, look at the cans lined up on the table, and just pick up the one that contained the target. "

Source: http://www.urigeller.com/books/geller-papers/g5.htm

All skeptic explanations so far are therefore null and void.

Just to clarify that you use Uri Geller's own website for evidence that he didn't cheat? Yea, that's a good one.

[ProfWag]

In that case you should not believe in any scientific experiment, because there is the possibility some evil scientists are deceiving us.

What a paranoid world you live in.

Ninjapuppy, it seems our skeptics have turned into conspiracy theorists! isn't that woo?

Yes, this comment is comming from someone who said this:

You do realise al qaeda is actually a CIA creation?

Quote fixed by Moderator

[Indigo Child]

I don't care about your opinion, because your opinion is unfalsifiable.. Do you actually have evidence that is he cheating or using misdirection?
Do you have a counter-hypothesis for each of the demonstrations Geller did: hidden object experiments, double blind die experiment, magnometer
experiment and the electric scales experiment, and the ring bending(150lb force required)

I don't care what Geller has done and said in 40 year career. We are looking at these SRI experiments in this thread, not his entire life story.

You've lost this debate because you have failed to rebut the evidence in the SRI experiments. It has therefore been proven that Gelller did
indeed demonstrate his powers. Case closed.

[ProfWag]

I don't care about your opinion, because your opinion is unfalsifiable.. Do you actually have evidence that is he cheating or using misdirection?
Do you have a counter-hypothesis for each of the demonstrations Geller did: hidden object experiments, double blind die experiment, magnometer
experiment and the electric scales experiment, and the ring bending(150lb force required)

I don't care what Geller has done and said in 40 year career. We are looking at these SRI experiments in this thread, not his entire life story.

You've lost this debate because you have failed to rebut the evidence in the SRI experiments. It has therefore been proven that Gelller did
indeed demonstrate his powers. Case closed.

Yes, I do have evidence that he cheated. I showed you how he did the "marble in the can" trick. It only takes one to discredit a series of experiments. If you don't want to believe me that that is how he did it, then fine. You don't have to believe me as I really don't care whether you do or not. I could find evidence of the others if I was allowed to see all 24 hours of footage, but unfortunately, Puthoff won't allow that so all we have is the edited versions. This forum is also for other people who may be sitting on the fence on this particular topic. It is now up to them to decide for themselves. As long as I'm not banned here, my PM is always open to individual questions.

[Indigo Child]

Yes, I do have evidence that he cheated.

Where is it?

I showed you how he did the "marble in the can" trick.

Your explanation did not work. The experimeter did not touch any of the other cans when
eliminating cans. The experiment was repeated with different targets a permenant magnet(
hence no movement to detect) and water. Geller still succeeded. Later, Geller was able to
pick out the correct can without there being any elimination of cans:

From the researchers:

"After repetition of this experiment several times, using different objects, Geller was finally able to walk into the room, look at the cans lined up on the table, and just pick up the one that contained the target. "

It only takes one to discredit a series of experiments.

Wrong. A series of experiments are different experiments. Each experiment
has to be treated individually. If one experiment proves faulty, it does not mean
the others are faulty. You have not yet proven any of their experiments are faulty.

Stop begging the question. Where is the evidence he cheated? How can you be so convinced
he has cheated without having any evidence for it? The truth is you want to beleive he cheated