Human Flying

[Indigo Child]

. You finally appeal to Newton's law of gravity, newton's theory has been dead since beginning of the 20th century.

So Indigo just turned Newton's "Law" into a "Theory" and then says it's dead. Hmpf. You might want to tell that to scientists around the world...

Prowag, if they have studied science beyond high school, they will already know this.
Newton's theory has been revised constantly since its inception because it was giving wrong
predictions, and many of its predictions failed, that it had to be scrapped in favour of Einstein's
relativity theory. A friend of mine, who is a hardcore scientist and would defend science tooth and
nail, totally rejects the paranormal, even told me how blatantly wrong Newton's theory was. For
instance GPS which we take for granted would not work if we were using Newton's theory to calculate
its path.

Newton's theory fail in three particular cases: when high velocities are involved (through the
Special Theory of Relativity), in the proximity of large masses
(through the theory of General Relativity), and on sub-atomic scales
(through quantum mechanics).

It is only useful for making everyday predictions, and giving us useful approximations. It is actually
wrong scientifically though.

[ProfWag]

. You finally appeal to Newton's law of gravity, newton's theory has been dead since beginning of the 20th century.

So Indigo just turned Newton's "Law" into a "Theory" and then says it's dead. Hmpf. You might want to tell that to scientists around the world...

Prowag, if they have studied science beyond high school, they will already know this.
Newton's theory has been revised constantly since its inception because it was giving wrong
predictions, and many of its predictions failed, that it had to be scrapped in favour of Einstein's
relativity theory. A friend of mine, who is a hardcore scientist and would defend science tooth and
nail, totally rejects the paranormal, even told me how blatantly wrong Newton's theory was. For
instance GPS which we take for granted would not work if we were using Newton's theory to calculate
its path.

Newton's theory fail in three particular cases: when high velocities are involved (through the
Special Theory of Relativity), in the proximity of large masses
(through the theory of General Relativity), and on sub-atomic scales
(through quantum mechanics).

It is only useful for making everyday predictions, and giving us useful approximations. It is actually
wrong scientifically though.

Considering Newton's Law is 400 years old, yes it has changed a bit over the years, however, the basic principles are still valid while Einstein's explains it in more detail. Blatantly wrong? No, I don't think so.

[Indigo Child]

See: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 532AAsayq7

The fact that you are using a 400 year old theory as your worldview, really goes to
show us how regressive your materialistic worldview is. GR is not just a modification
of Newtonian mechanics, it is a complete overhaul of it, and a radically new worldview.
Similarly, quantum physics is a complete overahaul of classical physics, and a radically
new worldview. It is our current worldview, even Einstein's theories are more or less dead.

[ProfWag]

See: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 532AAsayq7

The fact that you are using a 400 year old theory as your worldview, really goes to
show us how regressive your materialistic worldview is. GR is not just a modification
of Newtonian mechanics, it is a complete overhaul of it, and a radically new worldview.
Similarly, quantum physics is a complete overahaul of classical physics, and a radically
new worldview. It is our current worldview, even Einstein's theories are more or less dead.

From the link you posted:
Both theories of gravitational effects can be considered true in some aspects.
For example, Newtons three laws of gravity are still used today in physics, aerodynamics, and more. Einstein's theory of General Relativity can be thought of as an extension to Newton's laws.

When talking about the curvature of space-time and the more 'complex' issues that arise, the tool-of-use then switches from Newtonian to Einsteinian.

In summation, both laws work in different situations.

[Indigo Child]

Prowag,

Read the link again, and pay more attention to this part:

"Furthermore, GR is not merely a "modification" of Newtonian gravity. It is a completely different theory resting on an utterly different set of postulates; so different, in fact, that all of our understanding of the way bodies, space, and time interact with one another had to be overhauled in order to accept it. The two theories are at their cores, fundamentally at odds."

GR uses completely different variables, postulates and completely redefines Newton force of gravity, as a distortion in the fabric of space-time. It is
not just an extension of Newtonian mechanics, it is in fact what the philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn calls "incommensurable" with it. Newton theories
are only practically useful for everyday situations, they are not necessarily true. Even Aristotle's theories were practically useful, and they are blatantly wrong.

Even GR is wrong and is again only a useful description in order to calculate the orbits of celestial bodies and satellites, measure gravitational distortion and
relativistic effects. It is no more true than Newton theory's though, because we now know that fundamentally in quantum physics there is no such thing as physical
reality, it is just waves of possibility or wavefunctions which only collapse and take physical form when they are observed. So all of physical reality is only a useful
description by the observer, not as things really are.

[ProfWag]

If you shoot a gun towards a target some distance away, do you aim below or above the actual target? If your answer is above, why?

[Indigo Child]

If you shoot a gun towards a target some distance away, do you aim below or above the actual target? If your answer is above, why?

The answer is above, because the bullet will follow a parabolic path due to the gravity acting upon it, due to which it gradually starts to lose momentum energy and falls.

However, you prove nothing by showing this, all you prove is that there is some causes that causes the bullet to lose momentum energy. In standard Newtonian
Mechanics this cause is theorized as a force. In GR this cause is modelled as a distortion in space-time. In quantum physics there is no cause as such, but all things
exist as interrelations and all events are probabilistic.

It goes a bit like this if you want to trace it terms of dimensions:

3D - Newton
4D - Einstein
5D+ - Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger et al

The conclusion that science has arrived at today is beyond 4D, they have no choice
but to factor in consciousness. In other words what we call "reality" is something we
are conscious of. Atoms, electrons, space-time, galaxies and planets only have an
existence insofar as we are conscious of them. In other words without consciousness
in the first place, which is a truth consistent with philosophy, there would be no reality.
Thereby showing necessarily that mind precedes physical matter, and the actual fundamental
reality of everything is spiritual. It is a mind stuff that reponds to minds.

[ProfWag]

If you shoot a gun towards a target some distance away, do you aim below or above the actual target? If your answer is above, why?

The answer is above, because the bullet will follow a parabolic path due to the gravity acting upon it, due to which it gradually starts to lose momentum energy and falls.

However, you prove nothing by showing this, all you prove is that there is some causes that causes the bullet to lose momentum energy. In standard Newtonian
Mechanics this cause is theorized as a force. In GR this cause is modelled as a distortion in space-time. In quantum physics there is no cause as such, but all things
exist as interrelations and all events are probabilistic.

It goes a bit like this if you want to trace it terms of dimensions:

3D - Newton
4D - Einstein
5D+ - Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger et al

The conclusion that science has arrived at today is beyond 4D, they have no choice
but to factor in consciousness. In other words what we call "reality" is something we
are conscious of. Atoms, electrons, space-time, galaxies and planets only have an
existence insofar as we are conscious of them. In other words without consciousness
in the first place, which is a truth consistent with philosophy, there would be no reality.
Thereby showing necessarily that mind precedes physical matter, and the actual fundamental
reality of everything is spiritual. It is a mind stuff that reponds to minds.

Fair enough about the momentum energy, but the shell casing that drops out of the gun doesn't have momentum energy, it is affected by gravity which makes it fall. To say that a yogi in India can spritually alter or use mind over matter against that force is not logical Captain.

[Indigo Child]

Dear Canis,

The refined experiments you propose are definitely an improvement over the ones I suggested.
My experiments were merely for the personal validation of somebody, as most people would
settle for a basic confirmation such as spying on friends and family in the astral, and then returning
to the physical and verifying their observations. The scientiic studies into astral travelling which have
been done overal several decades, observes controls like you propose, even tigher ones. You will find
this paper very interesting:

http://cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.htm

Here is an excepts from the above paper of some of my favourite studies:

One of the first researchers to perform laboratorial experiments on the OBE was psychologist Dr. Charles Theodore Tart (1937 - ). In 1966, he invited a young projector to participate in a series of experiments in the sleep laboratory of the University of California - Davis. The historical projectiological experiments took four nights in which the projector - "Miss Z" - was to lay down and try to exit the physical body, while connected to a series of devices that measured her physiological conditions. The objective of the experiments was the identification of a quasi-randomly generated five-digit number, approximately 1.5 meters above her head (impossible to be physically observed).

From Monday to Wednesday, the projector reported having seen the clock while floating out of body. At the times informed by her, the devices demonstrated unusual brain-wave patterns. An absence of rapid-eye movements (REM) was also observed. On Wednesday night, Miss Z identified the target number: 25132. The brain-wave pattern during conscious projection was different from the patterns during waking state, sleep and other altered states of consciousness (an expression proposed by Tart himself)


A study by Janet Lee Mitchell (American Society for Psychical Research, ASPR) and Karlis Osis on the traveling clairvoyance of surrealist painter and writer Ingo Swann resulted in 8 of 8 correct target observations with 1 in 40,000 probability for a chance occurrence. When Swann reported his vision was outside of his body, there was loss of electrical activity and faster brain wave impulses in the visual areas in the occipital lobes. During this state, there was greater drop in alpha activity in the right hemisphere than in the left, while other organic functions remained normal.

In 1979, Karlis Osis and Donna McCormick verified that a projector correctly identified a random optical target, in a locked room replete of sensors, 114 of 197 (57.87%) trials in 20 sessions. During these 114 “hits,” kinetic effects were observed demonstrating the presence of something subtle but nonetheless physical.

In 1977, Robert Lyle Morris and Stuart Harary of Duke University. From the University of California – Santa Barbara, Harary (his body connected to various physiological devices) was to visit Spirit, his two-month old cat, whose movements in a cage were detected by sensors at Duke. Sharp behavior difference was observed when the projector was projected near the cat, which became passive, calm, without meowing as if it was seeing or feeling Harary’s presence. When he wasn’t projected, Spirit was continuously trying to exit the cage it was in and meowed 37 times. The results were considered p=.01. Simple telepathy was excluded through a false projection, where Harary simply imagined the occurrence. In posterior studies where the animal did not have affinity not Harary, there results were insignicant.



Regarding your proposition that vague descriptions cannot be accepted as valid hits such as "a red something", "a toy" I think they are valid, but I want to explain why these descriptions are actually common and why it is not always possible to get absolute descriptions of physical objects in the astral plane and why sometimes one can even fail to see the object.
The astral plane differs from the physical plane in some main characteristics. It has weak objectivity, it has no physical laws of space-time or gravity, it has phenomena which is unique to the astral plane. As it was weak objectivity it means that you will not necessarily always see a completely objective representation of a physical object, but sometimes it will be altered by your own subjective imaginings. For instance you might try to see a painting in the astral which you do not like, but in the astral you may not see a painting at all, but a representation of your own memories. As the astral has no time, it is possible for you to see an object in its past or future rather than its present. More often than not, astral things are often seen as qualitative things, as opposed to solid physical things, so one is more likely to seen a physical red ball in terms of its qualities as "redness, playful"
However, sometimes one can have very clear vision of the physical and see it as they would normally see it, but more vividly.

[Indigo Child]

Fair enough about the momentum energy, but the shell casing that drops out of the gun doesn't have momentum energy, it is affected by gravity which makes it fall. To say that a yogi in India can spritually alter or use mind over matter against that force is not logical Captain.

You have just evocated and dodged the main point. Typical. I think you will find I never fail to engage
any one of your points, I respond to everyone of them, because I know I have an answer for each one. You
on the other evocate and refuse to engage a point, and the reason is clear you do not have an answer for it.

The point is clear in my above post science does not know what gravity is or what anything else. It was
once thought to be a force, we now know it is not. It was then thought to a distortion in space-time, we now
know it is not. The most recent theories doing the rounds are quantum gravity. Invariably, that too will bite
the dust.

Look the main problem many of you skeptics have is you lack an education in current science. You rely on theories that
are 400 old, worldviews that have been dead for the last 100 years. We know today for a fact that there are dimensions
beyond the physical plane of reality and we know that consciousness precedes the physical dimensions. We are very much
on the cusp of accepting Yoga like theories of reality. Then there will be no longer any problem in explaining PSI and Yoga
powers. I think it is time you drop 400 year old theories and catch up with today's science.

[ProfWag]

Fair enough about the momentum energy, but the shell casing that drops out of the gun doesn't have momentum energy, it is affected by gravity which makes it fall. To say that a yogi in India can spritually alter or use mind over matter against that force is not logical Captain.

You have just evocated and dodged the main point. Typical. I think you will find I never fail to engage
any one of your points, I respond to everyone of them, because I know I have an answer for each one. You
on the other evocate and refuse to engage a point, and the reason is clear you do not have an answer for it.

The point is clear in my above post science does not know what gravity is or what anything else. It was
once thought to be a force, we now know it is not. It was then thought to a distortion in space-time, we now
know it is not. The most recent theories doing the rounds are quantum gravity. Invariably, that too will bite
the dust.

Look the main problem many of you skeptics have is you lack an education in current science. You rely on theories that
are 400 old, worldviews that have been dead for the last 100 years. We know today for a fact that there are dimensions
beyond the physical plane of reality and we know that consciousness precedes the physical dimensions. We are very much
on the cusp of accepting Yoga like theories of reality. Then there will be no longer any problem in explaining PSI and Yoga
powers. I think it is time you drop 400 year old theories and catch up with today's science.

First, I am not a scientist. Are you? Second, just what is the main point I'm missing?

[Indigo Child]

First, I am not a scientist. Are you? Second, just what is the main point I'm missing?

Well, it is clear you are not a scientist. No, I am not either, I am a philosopher, and have a strong back-
ground in philosophy of science, as well as spiritual sciences, if that is not clear already. I am aware of
many of the current problems in science, current issues in science and current theories, as well as its
history and politics.

I think I made the main point very clear in my last post. I will reiterate for your sake though, science
does not know what anything is. Period. The example I used was gravity to explain just how many theories
have bitten the dust in the history of science to explain it. Likewise, science is none the wiser on what
electricity is, what atoms are, or what reality in general is.
However, what we do know for a fact now is that consciousness cannot be explained by anything physical,
and it precedes the physical. The existence of spiritual realities, PSI etc is increasing coming into mainstream
acceptance in the scientific world.

[ProfWag]

We know today for a fact that there are dimensions
beyond the physical plane of reality and we know that consciousness precedes the physical dimensions. We are very much
on the cusp of accepting Yoga like theories of reality. Then there will be no longer any problem in explaining PSI and Yoga
powers. I think it is time you drop 400 year old theories and catch up with today's science.

According to the following...
http://library.thinkquest.org/04apr/013 ... nsions.htm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/0 ... onday.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/dimensions.html

...more than 3 dimensions are still nothing more than theory, yet you say it's "a fact." What can you provide for a reference for this fact?

[ProfWag]

First, I am not a scientist. Are you? Second, just what is the main point I'm missing?

Well, it is clear you are not a scientist. No, I am not either, I am a philosopher, and have a strong back-
ground in philosophy of science, as well as spiritual sciences, if that is not clear already. I am aware of
many of the current problems in science, current issues in science and current theories, as well as its
history and politics.

I think I made the main point very clear in my last post. I will reiterate for your sake though, science
does not know what anything is. Period. The example I used was gravity to explain just how many theories
have bitten the dust in the history of science to explain it. Likewise, science is none the wiser on what
electricity is, what atoms are, or what reality in general is.
However, what we do know for a fact now is that consciousness cannot be explained by anything physical,
and it precedes the physical. The existence of spiritual realities, PSI etc is increasing coming into mainstream
acceptance in the scientific world.

Okay, I will generally agree that science does not know what anything is. Yes, science is continuously evolving. What we know today as a "Law" may not necessarily be a "Law" 100 years from now. "Theories" as is known now can evenutally end up being "Laws" in the future.
What I do know, however, is that levitation, time-travel, walking on water, changing sizes, or any of the other things you have suggested these yogi's can do has not been shown to exist as of today, May 8, 2010.

[Indigo Child]

String theory/M theory and all other dimensional theories are just mathematical theories.
They are interesting, but so abstract and contradictory with one another, that one cannot
make practical use of them. This is why they have not yet been accepted in physics. They
also hinge on the assumption that dimensions beyond 3D would be spatial and temporal, and
this is why they struggle conceptualizing what higher dimensions would look like.

Quantum physics is still the prevailing theory today and is what all modern technology is
based on. In quantum physics the dimension of space-time vanishes completely, revealing
a reality that transcends space and time and transcends all physical description. This was
first demonstrated by the EPR paradox headed by Einstein, which showed if quantum theory
were true than it would be possible for action at a distance to take place, where for example
one particle being measured, would mysteriously mean another particle even if in another galaxy
would be instantaneously affected violating General relativity. The original intent was to show that
quantum theory was wrong, but later John Bell demonstrated that there was no violation of GR, because
the communication was taking place in the quantum world where there was no space and time. Since,
this been experimentally demonstated several times, notably by Alain Aspect. It is not known as the
principle of quantun entanglement and is used in quantum computers and quantum teleportation.

In other words space and time literally vanish in the 5th dimension of the quantum world. Thus necessarily
the dimensions above 4D would be non physical not physical. The 5th dimension is none other than the astral plane.