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Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ProfWag » April 21st, 2010, 1:39 pm

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ciscop wrote:yes there could be risks in vaccinations
YET

that´s too diferent that to say ¨doctors dont vaccinate their children¨
thats just so far of base
is funny somebody would say it

Correct me if I'm wrong ciscop, but I believe the main reason doctors don't vaccinate their own family members is because legally speaking, they cannot bill insurance for that procedure so they get their nurse or someone else to do it. I also believe there is some kind of oath that physicians take that states they will not perform medical procedures on their family. Anyone aware of that?
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ciscop » April 21st, 2010, 1:54 pm

OHHH!! really?

i didnt think it like that i thought about it
like.. THEY'LL never recomend their family to do it
not that they do it themselves
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ProfWag » April 21st, 2010, 2:02 pm

Nostradamus wrote:It's the sort of claim a fanatic makes to someone that avoids education. They take it hook line and sinker. Even later when they realize that this is a lie they decide to call the doctor a liar instead of admitting they were too daft to figure out in the beginning that they were duped.

As ProfWag pointed out, vaccines are not 100% safe. Weight the risks.

Looking at the pictures you posted ND while eating my Beef Stew, I don't believe I have too much decision to weigh. In fact, I think I'm going first thing in the morning to make sure I'm up to date!
I did receive the anthrax vaccination a few years ago while there was still some debate on it's usefullness against the risk. Made me sicker than dog for a few days after each one (I had to take 4 follow-ups), but now, if any of you ever get an envelope in the mail with white powder in it, give me a call and I'll handle it for you! :-)
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » April 23rd, 2010, 6:03 am

People might not know understand why the backlash against vaccinations has not had dramatic effects. Of course, there are kids who get polio that should not. There are kids that become extremely ill that should not.

It's known as herd immunity.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
The proportion of immune individuals in a population above which a disease may no longer persist is the herd immunity threshold. Its value varies with the virulence of the disease, the efficacy of the vaccine, and the contact parameter for the population.


Even though a vaccine may not protect everyone equally or in some cases may fail to protect, if enough people are protected, then the 'herd' as a whole is protected. If you look at the threshold table you'll see that the threshold is high for pertussis, aka whooping cough.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis
Common complications of the disease include pneumonia, encephalopathy, earache, or seizures. Infection in newborns is particularly severe.

Pertussis vaccines are highly effective, strongly recommended, and save many infant lives every year.


In the 1970s there was a large backlash against vaccinations and in particular pertussis.

By the late 1970s, publicity about adverse reactions and deaths following pertussis vaccination caused the immunization rate to fall in several countries, including Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan. In many cases, a dramatic increase in the incidence of pertussis followed.


As you can see from the herd immunity chart it takes a high vaccination rate to keep the disease under control. With a drop in the use of the vaccine the disease easily took off.

Let's say the disease is allowed to take off. What happens? Even today with efforts to control it there are many deaths.
Worldwide whooping cough effects 48.5 million people yearly resulting in nearly 295,000 deaths.


So even if a friend, or a friend of a friend, suggests that they didn't immunize their kids and nothing happened, think twice. People that avoid the vaccine can lead to the reemergence of disease and when it does they are the ones that are hit.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » March 6th, 2011, 9:27 am

Skeptics,
Question: What makes you think that vaccines are all about safety, rather than about profits for Big Pharma?

Have you seen the documentary "Vaccine Nation"? It features many credible experts, including Barbara Joe Fisher, the leading expert on vaccines, who says that "it is a certainty that vaccines are not safe". One couple featured in the film even had their baby die from a vaccine. I showed it to my girlfriend and she said "Why didn't you show it to me before? Then I wouldn't have given our son all those vaccines."

Here it is in its entirety:



So why do doctors keep lying and telling everyone that vaccines are completely safe?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Arouet » March 6th, 2011, 9:44 am

Scepcop, vaccines are not 100% safe. No medication that actually does something is. There are side effects, and in a small percentage of people this can even be serious.

But you must compare this small group of people who have adverse effects to the large group of people who will be spared horrible fatal diseases. The numbers aren't even close. Do you really want to see a resurgence of smallpox? If you had been around during a smallpox epidemic, what do you think your reaction would have been to the vaccines? It is a numbers game.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » March 6th, 2011, 10:00 am

Arouet wrote:Scepcop, vaccines are not 100% safe. No medication that actually does something is. There are side effects, and in a small percentage of people this can even be serious.

But you must compare this small group of people who have adverse effects to the large group of people who will be spared horrible fatal diseases. The numbers aren't even close. Do you really want to see a resurgence of smallpox? If you had been around during a smallpox epidemic, what do you think your reaction would have been to the vaccines? It is a numbers game.


Then why do doctors keep telling people that they are safe? How do you know these numbers haven't been manipulated? The tobacco industry can manipulate numbers easily, as you know.

Why do you believe that vaccines are all about safety, rather than profits? What is your basis?

What do you think of the cervical cancer vaccine? Do you think all girls should get it, just in case, as Big Pharma urges?

You live in fear, it seems, thus you are in a low vibrational state of consciousness, as David Icke would say.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » March 6th, 2011, 10:02 am

Check this out. I asked an expat friend this question:

Question: You never vaccinated either of your two children right? Do they get sick less often than other kids their age? If so, that is evidence that vaccines are unnecessary. A conspiracy guy I listen to named Alex Jones said that he never vaccinated his boys either and they are healthier than other kids their age and never get sick.

When I took Dianne to a gynecologist, she gave us brochures about a cervical cancer vaccine, which she was brainwashed into promoting. I wanted to tell her to watch the film "Vaccine Nation" on YouTube, but didn't want to risk a confrontation. I showed the film to Dianne and she found it convincing and it changed her mind about vaccines.

I wonder if most doctors vaccinate their own children. I've heard they don't, but others say they do.

Winston


Check out his revealing reply that will drop your jaw...

Hi Winston,

You are right, my first 2 are not at all vaccinated. They rarely get sick, but then again most kids on a decent diet are pretty healthy.

We knew a Russian family in Hawaii with 5 boys. The first one was vaccinated, and the rest not. The first one was the ONLY fat one, and the ONLY one with brown hair. All the rest were blond and slim (normal.)

I believe most nurses refused the "bird flu" (what a fizzled out scam that was!) vaccine, and many doctors too. I have read that for other vaccines too.

Very much like conventional farmers not growing organic food: They sell their chemical-laden crap, and buy organic food for their own families. Any guesses why?


Skeptics, how do you explain the above?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » March 6th, 2011, 10:05 am

This looks like a presentation worth watching. See film below.

Description:

Desiree L. Rover, medical research journalist and author, presented "Vaccinations, Weapons of Mass Destruction" on August 1, 2009 at the "State of the Planet" conference, in Amsterdam, Netherlands, put on by Groundcrew Amsterdam.

In her talk, she outlines the information she has been researching since her son died because of the chemotherapy that he got for a cancer originating from a vaccine. She presents many facts and emphatically encourages the audience to check out those facts for themselves.

We feel the information presented in this video is so critical to all humans that we would like to encourage you to take this video "viral." By that we mean, please send the link of this video to family and friends... and encourage them to also pass it forward so that everyone learns about this... Only by doing so, can everyone make an informed decision.

If you would like to contact Desiree, please write her at desiree.rover@groundcrew.nl

Special note from Desiree:
In my talk I stated that in 1997 the genetic remnants of the 1918 virus had been taken from the kidney tissues of Lucy, an obese Inuit lady victim... It actually were her lungs which Jefferey Taubenberger (Army Institute of Pathology) and his team removed from her body after having desecrated the permafrost graves of the 72 1918 flu victims of Brevig Mission, Alaska. This village counted only 8 survivors.

Johan Hultin was part of this 1997 team; it was his second visit. Already in 1951 he had succeeded in retrieving the virus in Brevig, but he lacked the necessary computer power to rebuild it then. It was when in 1997 supercomputers got installed at Fort Detrick (America's biowar lab founded by George W. Merck in 1942) that government agencies, scientists and pharmaceutical companies scrambled to get to Alaska and try again. This time they found 'Lucy', and with the help of the supercomputers Jeffery Taubenberger actually rebuilt the 1918 virus in 2003 and published its genetic sequence on the internet. (See also PBS documentary Killer Flu).
In October 2009 dr. Terence Tumpey (CDC, Influenza Division, National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases) will publish his article "Resurrected Pandemic Influenza Viruses" in the Annual Review of Microbiology, 2009, Vol. 63 (doi:10.1146/annurev.micro.091208.073359). Abstract on: http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi ... 208.073359

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby caniswalensis » March 6th, 2011, 10:22 am

What would we replace vaccines with?
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Arouet » March 6th, 2011, 10:23 am

Scepcop wrote:Then why do doctors keep telling people that they are safe?


They are reasonably safe. The risks of adverse reaction are quite low and completely outweighed by the risk of disease. All medications have side effects. We compare the risk to the reward. WIth vaccines, its not even close. You dodged my question about wishing to see a return of smallpox. Do you doubt that vaccines eradicated smallpox?

Why do you believe that vaccines are all about safety, rather than profits? What is your basis?


They are about safety, and profits.

What do you think of the cervical cancer vaccine? Do you think all girls should get it, just in case, as Big Pharma urges?


I don't know anything about it. Can you please tell me what you think Big Pharma's argument is?

You live in fear, it seems, thus you are in a low vibrational state of consciousness, as David Icke would say.


You don't think fear is a useful emotion? It is meant to keep us alive. People who live without fear will likely wind up dead. I do fear a return of smallpox. Why don't you?
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby caniswalensis » March 6th, 2011, 10:37 am

Arouet wrote: I do fear a return of smallpox. Why don't you?


Too busy fearing vaccines?
"It is proper for you to doubt ... do not go upon report ... do not go upon tradition ... do not go upon hear-say." ~ Buddha
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Jackal » March 6th, 2011, 2:02 pm

ciscop wrote:no..
but there is a danger in science denial

I couldn't agree more!

The logical flaw of the OP is concluding that just because SOME vaccines may have been harmful and unnecessary that ALL of them are.

For example, there was the milk poisoning scandal in China. Just because some milk in China was poisoned, you can't conclude that all the milk in the world is harmful for children. Although you could start sending paranoid emails to people: "MILK KILLS!! Shocking NWO Conspiracy Exposed! Why don't we ever see world leaders drinking milk on TV? *Gasp* It's a conspiracy! They all know it's dangerous! STAND UP TO THE NWO BY BOYCOTTING THAT EVIL, WHITE LIQUID!!"
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby curious » March 7th, 2011, 12:11 pm

Scepcop wrote:
Hi Winston,

You are right, my first 2 are not at all vaccinated. They rarely get sick, but then again most kids on a decent diet are pretty healthy.

We knew a Russian family in Hawaii with 5 boys. The first one was vaccinated, and the rest not. The first one was the ONLY fat one, and the ONLY one with brown hair. All the rest were blond and slim (normal.)



Skeptics, how do you explain the above?

If mom and dad of this boy are both blond (as is somewhat implied by the 'normal' comment), I would suggest looking into the possibility that someone had an affair... genetic give-away...

My brother and I are both fully vaccinated -- my mother made sure of this -- and we are far healthier than the families we married into, who are also vaccinated. I suspect this has more to do with a healthy diet, than with anything else.

My nephew is not vaccinated, and is still healthy. My parents (and I) have grave concerns about this -- they witnessed the polio pandemic first-hand. They had schoolfriends die or become disabled. Additionally, my mother had a sibling die from whooping cough. These kinds of concerns disappeared with the advent of innoculations.

I am lucky enough to be of a generation that didn't have to worry that every little illness could be something worse than a cold or flu. In my generation, death from disease is more of an unusual tragedy than a common, almost expected occurance. That vaccines have changed the face of our society, I have no doubt, just as surgery has, but like all things to do with the human body, it carries some risk.
"There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it." -- Oscar Wilde
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Arouet » March 7th, 2011, 12:48 pm

These personal little annecdotes about who was vaccinated vs. who got sick (or fat WTF?) are not very helpful in this question. No one is suggesting that if you don't get vaccination you will get some horrible disease. These are looked at on the group level. It is about achieving herd immunity: if enough people are vaccinated it can prevent the illness from getting into the community, thereby benefiting those who were not vaccinated as well. When herd immunity is not reached you get what we're seeing with the current whooping cough breakout in the states.
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