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Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » 21 Apr 2010, 14:34

Check these videos out.

- Did you know that there has NEVER been a study comparing non-vaccinated children with vaccinated children? Is that true? If so, then the benefit of vaccines is unproven.

- Did you know that the swine flu vaccine has killed more people than the flu itself?

- Did you know that many fathers claim that their kids who were never vaccinated never get sick, while other kids at school who were vaccinated have gotten all the illnesses that kids commonly get?

- Is it true that most doctors don't even vaccinate their children?

Unbelievable huh?

I'm glad I stopped getting my son vaccines. My gut instinct told me it was not a good idea, besides the expensive cost of them in the Philippines.

Check out what these researchers and fathers attest to:









A documentary about vaccines:



And check out all this vast research against vaccines too:

http://vaccine911.com/vacreference.pdf
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ciscop » 21 Apr 2010, 14:40

For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Scepcop » 21 Apr 2010, 15:53

ciscop wrote:no..
but there is a danger in science denial
http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_specter_the_danger_of_science_denial.html


But then how come doctors don't give vaccines to their own children, and how come there are no double blind studies comparing vaccinated children with non-vaccinated children?
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ciscop » 21 Apr 2010, 16:06

as always
you are just assuming
where did you get that most doctors dont vaccinate their children?
do you believe this is a huge conspiration??

really?
let me guess.. who is doing it?? The lizards?? those reptilians??
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 21 Apr 2010, 21:37

But then how come doctors don't give vaccines to their own children, and how come there are no double blind studies comparing vaccinated children with non-vaccinated children?

This is misleading. I know. My doctor has vaccinated children. The nurse or FNP did the injections. So it is true that the doctor did not give the vaccinations to their own children. They directed someone else to do it and they did.

Take a look at polio. Who gets polio in the US today? It happens. People that are not vaccinated get polio.

From http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/virol/polio%20outbreak05.htm
On September 29, 2005, the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) identified poliovirus type 1 in an unvaccinated, immunocompromised infant girl aged 7 months (the index patient) in an Amish community whose members predominantly were unvaccinated for polio.

A total of 4 kids got polio and all were unvaccinated.

From http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/2/611
Here we learn what to do after polio is eradicated from the earth. Will it be truly gone. Apparently not, even if the population at large has no one infected with a dangerous form of polio.
CONCLUSIONS. This model suggests that monovalent oral poliovirus vaccine would be the most advantageous vaccine for outbreak control.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 21 Apr 2010, 21:53

Did you know that the swine flu vaccine has killed more people than the flu itself?


Let's check this out.

From http://scientificinquiry.suite101.com/article.cfm/swine_flu_vaccine_debated_as_h1n1_deaths_rise
* 251 children and teens have died from the swine flu epidemic through the end of November, 2009; these represent the lab-confirmed cases that have been documented. Estimated "pediatric" deaths range from 790-1550.
* pregnant woman are at increased risk.
* cases and deaths are rising through 2009 as the CDC updates are posted. The epidemic may not peak until February - March 2010 which is the 1-year anniversary period of H1N1 swine flu.
* the swine flu vaccine is apparently safe, and is not causing death or disability based on the current available data. During the period August 30 - October 31, 2009, 672 deaths were lab-confirmed as due to H1N1.
* U.S. H1N1 flu statistics (from April 2009, to the end of November 2009, and given as mid-level estimates) are 47 million cases with hospitalizations at 213,000 and deaths at 9,820.
* failure to get vaccinated increases the risk of acquiring epidemic H1N1 swine flu.
* vaccination reduces the chances of getting the swine flu, and transmitting the flu.
* any risk of disability and death associated with swine flu vaccination is far less than death or disability with the wild strain.
* unvaccinated children risk death from swine flu.
* FluMist is an effective, attenuated vaccine for people ages 2-49. (flumist.com/Flumist-Flu-Shot.aspx)
* for adults killed vaccines were more protective and efficacious than attenuated influenza vaccines during the influenza epidemic period 2007-2008. This was reported by Monto et al. in the New England Journal of Medicine 361:1260-1267, September 24, 2009, Number 13, Comparative Efficacy of Inactivated and Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccines.


Now let's check out what the no vaccine club has to say.
Look at http://www.thinktwice.com/swineflu.htm
Search on death. The word only appears in links. One of the links is about a baby that died. Is that it? The article makes a tentative link to the swine flu vaccination. An autopsy wasn't conclusive. Let's accept that it was.

This article is a typical fear mongering claim used by people that try to stop vaccinations for whatever purpose they have.

Let's take a look at deaths in one area:
From http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/lifestyles/health_med_fit/health/article/VFLU20_20100219-222006/325585/
In Virginia, there were 36 confirmed H1N1-associated deaths -- 33 adults and three children.


So in 1 area we have 3 dead children. All of these deaths were confirmed as H1N1 related.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 21 Apr 2010, 21:57

Malaria kills over a million people a year. There are people trying to develop a vaccine and stop these deaths.

Do you believe that the research into a malaria vaccine should be stopped so that a million people can continue to die each year? Is that what this thread is about? Killing people in the third world with malaria and other diseases? We don't have malaria in the US, Canada, or Europe. So why bother? Forget the vaccines. Stop the effort. Is that what you think is right?
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ProfWag » 21 Apr 2010, 22:58

Great, supportive information Nostradamus!
If I were to stop and THINK for a minute, would I want to live in a world with vaccinations or in a world without vaccinations? Hmmmmmm.......
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 21 Apr 2010, 23:42

C'mon ProfWag, don't you want to see the economy growing by building iron lungs? Here is a ward of kids who can't breath on their own because they contracted polio before a vaccine was available. I wonder why these iron lung wards no longer are needed? I wonder.
Image

I want to see pustule covered faces like this boy from the Wikipedia. He's got smallpox. A vaccine could have saved him, but no. He was one of the few unlucky to get this disease before that nasty vaccine exterminated the disease from the face of the earth.
Image

Then there is measles. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring.[5] Complications are usually more severe amongst adults who catch the virus.


No vaccine and you can get the measles and then you might end up with some serious ailments.

If they get this malaria vaccine in place, then more people will just have to put up with being healthy. It's just something we'll have to put up with.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ciscop » 22 Apr 2010, 00:08

oh man..
nostradamus..
im usually on your side while you are kicking some serious ass
but this time
you just ruined my breakfast

:shock:
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby NinjaPuppy » 22 Apr 2010, 00:58

All very good points.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Apr 2010, 01:48

Sorry about ruining your breakfast. With all of the effort put into saving people's lives from dangerous diseases we are quick to forget the horror of what once terrorized people. These diseases are dangerous and killed countless people. The diseases that were transferred from the Old World to the New World decimated the New World population. Most of the responsible diseases can be controlled by vaccinations.

Remember when reading the following that Jenner did not do his work till 1796.

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/coldwar/pox_weapon_01.shtml
[url]At the time of the Pontiac rebellion in 1763, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, the Commander-in-Chief of the British forces in North America, wrote to Colonel Henry Bouquet: 'Could it not be contrived to send smallpox among these disaffected tribes of Indians? We must use every stratagem in our power to reduce them.' The colonel replied: 'I will try to inoculate the [Native American tribe] with some blankets that may fall in their hands, and take care not to get the disease myself.' Smallpox decimated the Native Americans, who had never been exposed to the disease before and had no immunity.

It has been alleged that smallpox was also used as a weapon during the American Revolutionary War (1775-83). During the winter of 1775-76, American forces were attempting to free Quebec from British control. After capturing Montreal, it looked as if they might succeed. But in December 1775, the British fort commander reportedly had civilians immunised against the disease and then deliberately sent out to infect the American troops. A few weeks later a major smallpox epidemic broke out in the American ranks, affecting about half of the 10,000 soldiers. They retreated in chaos after burying their dead in mass graves.[/url]

There are claims that this is a tall tale and others say the plan was never hatched or did not work. That is discussed here:
http://www.college.ucla.edu/webproject/micro12/webpages/indianssmallpox.html
All in all, the letters provided here remove all doubt about the validity of the stories about Lord Jeff and germ warfare. The General's own letters sustain the stories.


More on small pox can be found here: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20011106hsmallpox1.asp

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.


The scope of the epidemics over the years was tremendous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of "the greatest human catastrophe in history


For those that think vaccines should not be used because they are dangerous maybe this has a better breakfast ruining potential.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ProfWag » 22 Apr 2010, 01:55

I freely admit that there are dangers in vaccinations. However, there is also danger in surgery, driving automobiles, snow skiing, going to the mall, and eating to name just a few. The question one must seek an educated answer to is if the risk is worth the reward.
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby ciscop » 22 Apr 2010, 03:51

yes there could be risks in vaccinations
YET

that´s too diferent that to say ¨doctors dont vaccinate their children¨
thats just so far of base
is funny somebody would say it
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Are vaccines a dangerous scam?

Postby Nostradamus » 22 Apr 2010, 04:33

It's the sort of claim a fanatic makes to someone that avoids education. They take it hook line and sinker. Even later when they realize that this is a lie they decide to call the doctor a liar instead of admitting they were too daft to figure out in the beginning that they were duped.

As ProfWag pointed out, vaccines are not 100% safe. Weight the risks.
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