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free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.

Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby really? » 16 Mar 2010, 20:54

NinjaPuppy wrote:Daz - As usual, the 'got proof?' question will always come up with skeptics. It's their nature, they can't help themselves. They gotta ask!

You know what you are trying to explain to them. Heck, I really know nothing of RV, yet I know exactly what you are explaining, so it's not you. I'm sure the skeptics will correct me if I'm wrong but they have this way of judging success by the scientific method only. Unless the subject matter fits into certain scientific parameters, they can't give it two thumbs up. I can understand their POV in that respect as well but I'm not of the mindset to debunk or debate topic material. Skeptics will debate an issue until they are completely satisfied with your explanation and proof or until you finally give up trying to explain.

Meanwhile we all go around and around in a happy little circle without going anywhere. Now if we can get the skeptics here to confirm any positive possibilities rather than bring forward the opposite negatives to your subject material, we might actually all learn something.

I'd like to ask the skeptics if they can tell us why they don't consider if/what has already been supplied here as proof? Granted it's not conclusive proof but I see plenty of excellent information provided that a more scientific mind should be able to add to help get to a more conclusive theory. Skeptics need to use their superpowers for good rather than evil. How about each of you skeptics give Daz a positive comment about what he's already posted? What did you like in all of his comments?


Actually skeptics do consider that some of the things people believe are true. The problem lays with the fact there is no way to prove based upon anecdotal evidence that which is true.

As for Daz's contention RV is a real thing like Gravity is a real thing requires Daz to provide substantial evidence that it is a real thing. Right now their whole argument is why can't you skeptics just take my word for it.

We'll keep going around in a circle so long as people refuse to critically look at the things they believe and their motives for continuing to believe those things.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby Craig Browning » 16 Mar 2010, 23:50

ProfWag wrote:Thanks for the explanation.
I think where we differ is that I believe that if someone states they can do something unusual, then I believe they should have to prove it. Sure, maybe it sounds like a broken record from us, but there's a reason for that. There just hasn't been any proof out there. I've read some of the scientific studies that show what appears to be a possibility of paranormal events, but as of now, it's never been proven.

If I tell someone I can , I should have to prove it. And not by putting a sidewalk made of glass right under the water. I should have to put my ability up for inspection, studied, and then replicate it. It's really that simple. Feel free to continue writing your book, but it's not going to change the minds of people who need proof of things. If we didn't question the paranormal, people would be getting away with all sorts of crap. So, I'm still not sure what it is you want from us skeptics. Do you want us to say "Oh wow, that person can really read minds!" and then not ask for proof? It's not going to work that way. As I've said before, I believe that psychics, mediums, tarot readers, etc. do more harm than good so until someone can show that their skill is helpful, I'm throwing up the red flag. That's my opinion and, of course, I'm entitled to it just as you're entitled to yours.


Trust me, I don't take any claims of the miraculous at face value. I do investigate... hell, I'm a magician and if it looks like a good piece, I may want to steal it and adapt it to something :lol:

But, as others have pointed out, today's "Skeptics" tend to be far more critical/cynical in their questioning due to a predisposition of disbelief that they are more inclined to cling to vs. the willingness a true skeptic has when it comes to possibility. I think some of things Daz has pointed out here, shows this; how certain research don't point blank state paranormal or psi influence but yet leaves the door open when it comes to an unexplained sense of phenomena... which happens to be a factor in legit science that most of today's "skeptics" love to negate and at minimum ignore. The fact is, occult factors have always been known of and allowed as part of summation. You will even find inference to such things in medicine and law practice let alone the science fields of Chemistry, physics, and so forth.

As to your claim that Psychics do more harm than good... I'd like to see the statistic on that point vs. the assumptions.

Most self-ascribed skeptics make this statement based on two key influences in which one is the keystone... the famed Houdini chaos era in which countless charlatans were exposed with direct ties to the Spiritualist movement. Harry was looking at a situation that was and remain warranted. I've helped expose several such operations (which can be quite dangerous) and aided authorities in prosecution. But I can assure you that the majority of those that do Readings aren't just harmless but beneficial to society.

By the way... the average person seeking "help" when it comes to emotional and even psychological challenges will typically start with a close friend or even an elder within their family first with a clergyman sitting in second place the majority of the time (for women) or the barber/bar tender when it comes to males (the beautician can be in second place for women but tends to be #3). From here we come to the Psychic... more people will come to see a psychic for answers or "solutions" first... before going to any kind of counselor or clinician because of the stigma such things have attached to them... in short, seeing a shrink means you're officially nuts... or so is the perspective. The exception to this particular scenario are the various "drama queens" who are more hypochondriac than anything, thriving on the attention and drama of having this and that professional aiding them. But that's another story altogether... but since I mention it here and we are speaking of harm...
... I've personally encountered far more people whose lives have been destroyed by schlock therapists than those victimized by Psychic charlatans. In the town I live in there is one group whose patients you can identify from a distance (literally)... the are heavily medicated and tend to function more like zombies than human beings. Yet, this is one of the most heavily funded groups in the state (by the state).

The ruse of prescribed snake oil for hope has cost far too many lives. So let's not allow our personal prejudices blind us to reality... and no, I'm not saying that all of the mental health field has caused such harm but sadly, there are an amazing number of readily seen examples vs. what you'll find when it comes to the Psychic/Reader's role in things. Do understand however, if it weren't for the Mental Health community and the doctors/therapist I have had in recent years, I'd probably not be alive right now. So I'm not totally distrusting of such folk, simply aware that I must be vigilant when it comes to the kinds of care givers I allow in my world. Same holds true when it comes to Readers...

PREDATORY "PSYCHICS" tend to focus on specific demographic groups. They prefer minorities that come from highly superstitious cultures which, in my experience, has been the Hispanic and Black communities (primarily) followed by the Native American element. You also have those that specialize in two very important niche groups; the young adults 18-25 years of age who are new to the big new world and generally naive as well as curious. Most of these kids have never been away from home, many of them feel alone, out cast, etc. Just like a , the "weak ones" are the target and like those drug dealers that hang out near school yards, the first few Readings are seemingly given by the charlatan either for free or some minor gratuity "out of the kindness of their heart and a desire to help a lost soul that's in need"... the taste that gets them hooked.

Though there is much more to this particular issue it is one of the primary points that must be kept in mind when comparing apples to oranges in that there are legit Readers in the world who do not single out those marginal elements that can be readily manipulated. Too, you will find that the majority of these people encourage their clients to become dependent upon them. Most of the better Readers I know constantly encourage the client to see how to stand on their own two feet and resolve their conflicts independent of others (as in a guru, cleric, counselor). We give them (point them towards) the books that will help them in this way and in some instances, encourage them to meet with a professional counselor or even psychiatrist. I have always had the business cards of two or three local therapists whom I came to know and trust that I'd make referrals to and vice a versa, they would send clients to me from time to time because of some special circumstances.

Fact is, the legit operators of this field are probably more aware of the charlatan activity and quicker at taking actions towards it, than any skeptics group I've ever encountered. About a decade back the professional Readers in Reno, NV. had a major press conference addressing the fact that a certain Hispanic family had set up two places of business ran by a couple of sisters, who did Reading that exploited the local Hispanic and Native American element by pronouncing curses, etc and basically extorting incredible sums of cash from these people so as to remove these curses, bring back a loved one, resolve a court case to their favor, etc. The reason for this press conference was to challenge local officials to finally do something about this operation because of how it was creating a negative view towards the honest, hard working professionals within the region as well as the harm it was doing to the community as a whole.

Yes, there are some questions that must be asked when it comes to the Spiritualist side of things -- channeling, mediumship, etc. This is something I have only nominal experience with; in one instance it was exposing a conman heading up a spiritualist church by using most everything Robert Nelson had in print and in two other instances it was my own "encounter" with spirit which still leaves me a bit awestruck (though it feels quite strange and "icky" if you would). Yet, I believe that the majority of those doing this work mean no harm... then again, the majority of them are some of the worse Cold Readers I've ever met :lol:

Legit Readers don't remove hexes and don't encourage co-dependence. They do exactly what they claim; the Read the oracle based on the formulas established with it and what they observe within and around the sitter. That information is coupled with their gut feelings and from this you get the Reading. Understand however, Readings are not Prophecy... they are merely a view of what could be based on present circumstances. The client still retains their free will and can alter the course of things by simply redirecting their actions (typically negative or self-serving).

The original purpose of getting a Reading was to help the sitter make decisions by gaining insight and clarity around a given situation. The objective being to find the best way... the best course of action that was to be taken that would result in personal triumph without causing any sense of loss or harm to others (or to minimalize such, when it came to military conquests).

"pant, pant"... I hope this clarifies some things for you. ;)
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby NinjaPuppy » 17 Mar 2010, 00:01

Craig - Once again, an excellent post! Thank you!!!
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby dazsmith » 17 Mar 2010, 04:18

really said:
As for Daz's contention RV is a real thing like Gravity is a real thing requires Daz to provide substantial evidence that it is a real thing. Right now their whole argument is why can't you skeptics just take my word for it.

actually you should change your name from 'really' to 'rubbish'.

I have provided substantial evidence (see my post about Utts and Hyman)
We both agree that the SAIC experiments were free of the methodological weaknesses that plagued the early SRI research. We also agree that the SAIC experiments appear to be free of the more obvious and better known flaws that can invalidate the results of parapsychological investigations. We agree that the effect sizes reported in the SAIC experiments are too large and consistent to be dismissed as statistical flukes.

This analysis of the last ten Stargate CIA/DIA remote viewing projects is substantive enough on its own - let alone the other 23+ years of research that wasnt analysed and evaluated in this report. Given Utts and Hyman's status are you saying that this isn't of some value?

I have over 200 double blind examples of rv on my site. I also said I can offer many double blind laboratory experiments of remote viewing involving thousands of examples some peer reviewed by famous scientists like jessica Utts and Ray Hyman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Utts

My argument is if you wont accept peer reviewed experiments being evaluated and an effect found by both the pro and the sceptical analyst then what would you believe - its certainly not dog n pony tricks here on this board.

There is no 'take my word for it' im more than happy to present scientific and peer reviewed scientific tests of remote viewing - lol you guys just don't want to hear this.

We'll keep going around in a circle so long as people refuse to critically look at the things they believe and their motives for continuing to believe those things.

No you'll keep things going round in a circle and you wont read the links or evidence I posted because it scares you and your closed mind.

Daz
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby really? » 17 Mar 2010, 05:31

dazsmith wrote:really said:
As for Daz's contention RV is a real thing like Gravity is a real thing requires Daz to provide substantial evidence that it is a real thing. Right now their whole argument is why can't you skeptics just take my word for it.

actually you should change your name from 'really' to 'rubbish'.

WOW ! don't like what someone says then offend with ad hom. You wouldn't like being peer reviewed.

I have provided substantial evidence (see my post about Utts and Hyman)
We both agree that the SAIC experiments were free of the methodological weaknesses that plagued the early SRI research. We also agree that the SAIC experiments appear to be free of the more obvious and better known flaws that can invalidate the results of parapsychological investigations. We agree that the effect sizes reported in the SAIC experiments are too large and consistent to be dismissed as statistical flukes.
This analysis of the last ten Stargate CIA/DIA remote viewing projects is substantive enough on its own - let alone the other 23+ years of research that wasnt analysed and evaluated in this report. Given Utts and Hyman's status are you saying that this isn't of some value?

I haven't kept up recently with either Jessica or Ray so I can't comment and I don't know why you've included Mr.Hyman since he is a critic of Jessica's research and the paranormal in general. I did a cursory read on him.

I have over 200 double blind examples of rv on my site. I also said I can offer many double blind laboratory experiments of remote viewing involving thousands of examples some peer reviewed by famous scientists like jessica Utts and Ray Hyman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Utts

My argument is if you wont accept peer reviewed experiments being evaluated and an effect found by both the pro and the sceptical analyst then what would you believe - its certainly not dog n pony tricks here on this board.

There is no 'take my word for it' im more than happy to present scientific and peer reviewed scientific tests of remote viewing - lol you guys just don't want to hear this.

Then put your money where your mouth is and submit a white paper for review. I'm listening.



No you'll keep things going round in a circle and you wont read the links or evidence I posted because it scares you and your closed mind.

Daz[/quote]

We'll keep going around in a circle so long as people refuse to critically look at the things they believe and their motives for continuing to believe those things.
here's the problem Daz. If anyone looks a the sum total of all paranormal claims there is not one experiment, study what have you that compellingly indicates there is something to any of the claims of the paranormal.
I can be persuaded by evidence, but it better be damn good evidence.
The word Anomolous does not mean paranormal.
One last thing can you or anyone you know find where all the bad guys are hiding ?
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby ProfWag » 17 Mar 2010, 08:43

I actually believe this is a great thread with some good comments and information.
Daz, your quote concerning Hyman is accurate, but further reading clearly states he disagrees with the findings of Utts. Who do we believe? That's up to the reader as to which is more credible in their opinion. As mentioned, I have no reason to feel that you don't believe in what you are saying and what you do. I am pretty confident that you believe you are helping police and have an ability that most of the rest of us have not tapped into. I wish I had a passion in something as you appear to have with RV. Nothing wrong with that at all and I applaud your professionalism and eagerness to share your stories. It does stimulate good discussion and thought. (How's that Ninja?)

Craig, a lot of information that I just don't have time to comment on each and every statement, but I'll try to summarize anyhow. As for the comment I made about psychics do more harm than good, I did preface that with "I believe." That's just an opinion that I have not researched. You know, as well as I, that there are many fraudulent psychics out there that take your money at the drop of a hat (and many people's life savings). There are the Sylvias and others that tell parents their kids are dead when they are actually alive. Are there credible psychics? My belief based on my research is that there aren't any real psychics, hence, none of them are credible. If we find out later that there aren't any "real" psychics, does that mean their advice was not worthy of taking? I don't know the answer to that either, but as you alluded to, if the psychic isn't "real," you would be just as well off taking the advice of your bartender. To summarize my opinion on that statement, fraudulent psychics are criminal. If psychic abilities are not "real," then those that practice it, whether they believe in what they are doing or not, are only supporting those that are fraudulent and increasing their profitibility. So, that's how I have reached my conclusion that psychics do more harm than good. Once again, I don't have the scientific answer to this statement, but I just have never met anyone who was successful in life that gives credit to a psychic, though there may be someone out there I'm unaware of. They get to where they are based on hard work, personal commitment, and desire. Again, just my opinion based on my readings and personal experiences (to include experiences with psychics and astrologers.)
I've stated this several times before, but I'll say it again. The FBI states that no psychic has ever solved a crime. The National Academy of Science says no further research in parapsychology is warranted, and the results from the strong supporters of psi to include Utts, Radin, et. al, all claim that there is evidence of psi, but not yet conclusive and they all continue that more research should be done (not disagreeing with that). Those conclusions seem pretty convincing to me about parapsychology and unless I'm given something more concrete, I just don't see how I can become a believer at this point in time(though how much I wish it were true.) Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. I'm really not a bad person, I promise. But when you criticize "skeptics" or "pseudo-skeptics," you are actually criticizing a personallity. My life experiences have led me to being a skeptic. I used to believe in everything people tell me, until I got burned on several occasions. I now can no longer believe in things without questioning it. I not only do this with the paranormal, but I do it with the news, with my work groups, with my wife, with politicians, etc. If that makes me a bad person or someone with a trait that you feel you have to write a book about, then so be it. Shermer wrote a book entitled "Whhy People Believe Weird Things," so I guess a book about skeptics and their facilities is only fair.
Please note, that until this sentence, I did not use the word "proof" or "prove." ;-)
Last edited by ProfWag on 17 Mar 2010, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby Nostradamus » 17 Mar 2010, 09:25

Some interesting discussion here. It makes me think about a lot of issues. Thanks for all for the effort put out here.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby NinjaPuppy » 17 Mar 2010, 10:31

Thank you all. Daz has done a great job explaining from his experience and research. I know that he's made me want to do more reading about RV and as soon as my work load lightens up I expect to make some time to try to actually learn a bit more about it.

I have also enjoyed the skeptic comments and questions. ProfWag bought up an excellent point here:

ProfWag wrote: I must rely and trust the judgements of those that I consider experts in that field. Where I live, that would be the National Academy of Science. (www.nationalacademies.org) In 1988, they concluded that parapsychology does not warrant further study as the data shown to date points to parapsychology not having validity.


What makes these experts, experts in parapsychology or RV?
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby Nostradamus » 17 Mar 2010, 10:42

I suppose we need to look at the report and see what the reasoning was behind this statement.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby really? » 17 Mar 2010, 11:48

In my list of paranormal and skeptical links I have Ms. Utts's site bookedmarked http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/~utts/
The last time Ms.Utts seems to have done any research into the paranormal was 1995. If the meta-analysis Daz would have us believe was so conclusive why has she [Utts] not done any further research ?
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby ProfWag » 17 Mar 2010, 19:17

Nostradamus wrote:I suppose we need to look at the report and see what the reasoning was behind this statement.

Here is a link to the article: http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=778#toc
It's 719 pages so have fun with that... ;-)
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby NinjaPuppy » 17 Mar 2010, 19:51

Thanks ProfWag. I did an Evelyn Wood quickie of that book as they call it and it's very interesting. Not to mention, from what I read, I can understand it.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby Nostradamus » 18 Mar 2010, 11:21

Thanks for the link. I'm reading through the book and it is pretty interesting.

It's not too surprising to learn that the statistical method was accepted - today that's not too surprising. It's also not interesting to learn that as some experiments were tightened up that the results began to look more and more like chance. That's rather typical. Sometimes I've seen where better experimental methods actually make differences observable.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby Nostradamus » 19 Mar 2010, 02:15

Those are interested in remote viewing might want to read the information referred to by ProfWag. Info begins on p616.
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Re: free remote viewing magazine - issue 3

Postby dazsmith » 19 Mar 2010, 03:43

Okay I have an update form the Group owner and the police chief on the missing person case where I believe we helped.
Daz,
Just got off the phone with Chief Gonzalez and he stated that he and the state police and local Sheriff went to the spot we had indicated where we stated the body was by snagged by a fallen tree….. They used poles, oars and their engines to try to stir up the water to see if it would dislodge the body. They could not see it because of the dirty water. The following day a fisherman found the body next to the fallen tree, so it is most likely the stirring up of the water in the area around the tree forced the body to come up later…..

Regardless, it was because we pointed out that he was underwater by that tree is why he was found…..


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