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The Skeptic Damping Effect

Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.

Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Kevin Kane » 03 Mar 2010, 15:53

Nostradamus wrote:This is a rather sad statement indeed. It is completely wrong. Making such a statement lends support to the notion that someone is frustrated and depressed. Hope you feel better.


I suspect I'm more qualified to make such psychological determinations than Nostradamus. My advise is: if you don't like hearing the truth about skeptics, you should avoid forums such as this one. Just a suggestion.

Nostradamus wrote:
I'm coming a little late into discussion and need to read more, but I find this claim to wrong.


So, let's hear you to reason ...

Nostradamus wrote:Have you ever been to a scientific meeting? I have been to many and I also have been to many poster sessions at the nearby university. You have to make people think about heir claims. You ask them what they did and did not consider. You ask them how they would rule out other causes.

Creating doubt is good. It leads to questions of how to improve research.

As you state, asking for evidence (I assume that is what you meant by proof) is not investigation. The job of the questioner is not to do the work, but to evaluate the work done. The investigator does the work and present and defends it.

Science works that way. Look at some of the contentious issues that have been in the news:
1. birds evolved from dinosaurs
2. cold fusion
3. large hadron collider

The discussions or arguments can be heated and noisy and even long winded.



What you're describing, in a rather quaint, pixelated way, is not science. It's merely peer review and group think. Debating, consensus forming, rule-applying, conformity .. mid-level management .. community politics .. factory quality control.

Frankly, this is an almost pathetic level of thinking. Robotic or memetic thinking. I can remember the day when people made cogent and credible arguments ... long ago. Skeptics should be ashamed of the quality of arguments. Even a Richard Dawkins (post '80s) seems more of a media stereotype of a british scientist than an actual intellect. Hollow and banal scientism, disengenious, even fraudulent arguments reminiscent of early nazi propaganda. Pre-fabricated thinking and dumb slogans. Skepticism represents intellectual fraud and philosophic bankruptcy.

Quality Control Heirarchy (method for mass-producing low-grade, boring garbage):

Image

System Mutation (method for innovation and evolution):

Image


As you state, asking for evidence (I assume that is what you meant by proof) is not investigation.


I've noticed that skeptics have a problem with the word "PROOF" .... and I think I know why;



PROOF REQUIRES LOGIC.






... and logic requires thinking.




Asking for evidence of natural phenomena is not:

-Observation (of the real world, of the natural world, as called for by the scientific method)
-Investigation
-Inquiry
-Research
-Hypothesis
-Logic
-Theory
-Testing
-Determination

aka .. Science

Peer review/quality control is the final process ... after all the science is done. So how the hell can someone peer review something before all the evidence is in or has barely begun? Talk about jumping the gun. Talk about forming a conclusion before investigating.

Demanding to see evidence is just plain laziness. Lazy, memetic thinking .. it's skepticism, not science.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcello_Truzzi


The maxim/meme exists that says: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" .. (later amended by Carl Sagan from "proof" to "evidence"). A reasonable axiom, but is it applicable in the case of what is called paranormal?

1. Is it a "claim".

Evidence exists in some cases that psychic or paranormal phenomena are claims. But in many cases, the claim is subjective or not a claim at all (ie, testimony is not a claim but an inquired response, a product of active legal or scientific inquiry). And that's an important distinction.


2. Is it "extraordinary".

Evidence exists that indicates that it is NOT extraordinary. That the "paranormal" is just normal. That the "supernatural" is just natural. And the "extraordinary", just ordinary. One form or another probably experienced by the majority of all humans. That the mislabeled "paranormal" is a natural phenomena worthy of active scientific investigation, and not merely passive requests for evidence from lazy doubters.

The maxim is not applicable. Asking for evidence for the paranormal is wrong on several levels. The rational response for someone asking for such evidence is: Take A Hike. Skeptics should get off their lazy, unscientific asses and take a blank hike. It would probably do them some good. :)
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby ProfWag » 03 Mar 2010, 22:06

Kevin Kane wrote:
The maxim is not applicable. Asking for evidence for the paranormal is wrong on several levels. The rational response for someone asking for such evidence is: Take A Hike. Skeptics should get off their lazy, unscientific asses and take a blank hike. It would probably do them some good. :)

What the ...? Let's all agree with Kevin when he says that we shouldn't ask for evidence for the paranormal and just believe everyone who claims to have paranormal abilities really DO have paranormal abilities. No questions asked. Uhhhhh yea, okay.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Nostradamus » 03 Mar 2010, 22:17

What you're describing, in a rather quaint, pixelated way, is not science. It's merely peer review and group think. Debating, consensus forming, rule-applying, conformity .. mid-level management .. community politics .. factory quality control.


Why don't you just admit that you haven't been to a scientific meeting instead of trying to bluff us. It is very clear from what you have written that you have no idea what happens there. Your statements are completely wrong guesses. These things are not done at the meetings. These are really bad guesses. You get an F on this test.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Nostradamus » 03 Mar 2010, 22:20

Quality Control Heirarchy[sic] (method for mass-producing low-grade, boring garbage):

The rest of your post is a worthless collection of nonsense based on your false understanding of the processes at work.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Mar 2010, 00:11

I'm eating Oreo's and waiting to see how all of this works out.

My psychic prediction is......

"Nothing good will come of this".

That's all I got.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby ProfWag » 04 Mar 2010, 00:44

Kevin Kane wrote:
I've noticed that skeptics have a problem with the word "PROOF" .... and I think I know why;


I've noticed that believers have a problem with the word "PROOF" ... and I think I know why:
They don't have any...
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Mar 2010, 01:51

Nostradamus wrote: Isn't this the explanation used to explain why evil sometimes outlives good, or evil can prosper while the good are downtrodden?


No... that's just karma doing her thing... :lol:

Truthfully "Evil" is on many levels, an Illusion. We see it only because of the contrast it offers us but that contrast is based on perspective, a perspective created via our social/cultural/political and religious environs. To many in the U.S. and most of Europe having more than one wife is wrong... "Evil" and even "against God" and yet most of God's messengers in the Old Testament had more than one wife and in many cultures the practice is quite normal and seen as a blessing from God... even though, to western eyes, it seems permission for dirty old men to take unfair advantage of innocent young girls (minors in most cases). But, in holding to this theme, what makes us view these "under-aged" wives as "victims" and the act as being evil and wrong?

Not even biblically do we see this idea. In fact, most theologians put Adam & Eve at being in their mid-teens physically when they were created... most claim that the Mother Mary was 14 or 15 when Yahweh knocked her up (those damned senior gods seem to have a thing for young virgins.. .all of them!). The other fact is that it wasn't until the latter Victorian era that society slowly INVENTED the idea of "minors" and stuck the "you are now an adult" label on age 18. Within Nature and society prior to this point in time, it was not unusual for 14 year old girls to be married and having kids and of course, the strapping lads got some of the same treatment, many of them becoming land (and slave) owners well before seeing 20. Simply because "man" or "womanhood" had always been something seen to start as puberty completed its cruel course... when a girl had her first menses and the lad, his first orgasm (wet dream... balls dropping... voice changing, et al) which seem to culminate between 12 and 14 years of age.

Even as recently as the early 1960s, females residing in rural areas (of the U.S. at least) who weren't at least engaged by the time they were 20, were seen as "Old Maids" and even suspected of Lesbianism. Of course my views are slanted in that my mother was 19 when I was born and I was her 3rd pregnancy (but the only one of the 3 to survive more than a year). Today, a girl 18 or 19 having a kid is seen as wrong; morally and ethically irresponsible, cruel and a number of other misplaced/invented views. The truth may be simply that the girl's parents don't want to give up their baby doll... that play thing they could dress up and "control" :roll: I'd say that such psychological hang-ups are just as wrong, cruel and immoral but I don't know of many parents who don't try to extend their lives by living it through their children.

Karma however, answers a lot of what we see as injustice... "evil" or just bad things happening to good people. One of my favorite examples of this is when a Monsignor for the Vatican was assigned to investigate the East Indian Mystic Sai Baba. As the story goes the two were walking side by side through a group of disciples, one of whom was a young girl horribly deformed as the result of CP. The priests asked Sai Baba why he didn't heal her; Baba almost instantly grabbed the arm of the priest and laid his hand on the girl's head at the same time.Within a minutes time the priest collapsed, crying and sobbing... literally whaling because of what he saw... he claimed to have experienced this girl's past life and saw how cruel she had been to others and how she'd earned this particular form in her current life. Once he'd stopped sobbing and crying over what he'd experienced Baba asked, "What right have I to take from anyone, the right to learn the lessons they are here to learn. Until she has completed that lesson and restored balance in life, she cannot be healed."

If you think about it, many of us cling to our ails and negative vices and do so for years. Then, if we are lucky, we wake up and recognize that they are only hurting us... our perspective has shifted so that what was once seen as a good thing, has become a negative. There was no way of changing our life until we reached that conclusion and willingly made the shift.

We must consider many other things when it comes to the dichotomy of Good vs. Evil... the latter being akin to that pimple on the tip of your nose that everyone seems to focus on, ignoring all the good and beauty surrounding it; the pimple offers more drama and reason for excitement. It's a distraction from that calm one must be a part of in order to pop all your own zits (imperfections) and thus, your zit let's us escape. That is why it seems that there is more evil or bad in the world, we are drawn to it and choose to see it more than what else is there that is good, beautiful, kind, filled with glory and hope.

Take a look at the 3rd Reich... just the mention of the idea makes us think of severe ugliness and yet there was a tremendous amount of good that came from its existence including many of the advancements the entire world has seen when it comes to general technologies, aerospace, medicine, genetic research & DNA studies, cloning and more! Not to beat the drum and break out in celebration, but we all owe that "evil empire" a hardy thank you! If it hadn't been for the genocide issue and attacking England & France it is not remotely doubtful that Adolf Hitler would have been seen as one of the Greatest Political figures of the mid-20th century... but he allowed his henchmen to have too much free reign and likewise, too much influence in his personal thinking (especially as some of his drug use progressed).

:| Ok... I'm rambling... hope I've made some sense.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby NinjaPuppy » 04 Mar 2010, 02:36

Excellent post. Thank you.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Kevin Kane » 04 Mar 2010, 05:08

Nostradamus wrote:Why don't you just admit that you haven't been to a scientific meeting instead of trying to bluff us. It is very clear from what you have written that you have no idea what happens there. Your statements are completely wrong guesses. These things are not done at the meetings. These are really bad guesses. You get an F on this test.


Not a rebuttal or valid argument.

Nostradamus wrote:The rest of your post is a worthless collection of nonsense based on your false understanding of the processes at work.


Not a rebuttal.

ProfWag wrote:I've noticed that believers have a problem with the word "PROOF" ... and I think I know why:
They don't have any...


No rebutting action happening here.

ProfWag wrote:What the ...? Let's all agree with Kevin when he says that we shouldn't ask for evidence for the paranormal and just believe everyone who claims to have paranormal abilities really DO have paranormal abilities. No questions asked. Uhhhhh yea, okay.


.. or here. It appears ProfWag didn't even read my post.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby ProfWag » 04 Mar 2010, 05:27

Kevin Kane wrote:
ProfWag wrote:What the ...? Let's all agree with Kevin when he says that we shouldn't ask for evidence for the paranormal and just believe everyone who claims to have paranormal abilities really DO have paranormal abilities. No questions asked. Uhhhhh yea, okay.


.. or here. It appears ProfWag didn't even read my post.

I'm on a diet so I had a hard time getting past the Oreos. However, my post was in a direct response to your post that stated we shouldn't ask for evidence of the paranormal. Here it is again in case you don't remember what you wrote:
"The maxim is not applicable. Asking for evidence for the paranormal is wrong on several levels. The rational response for someone asking for such evidence is: Take A Hike. Skeptics should get off their lazy, unscientific asses and take a blank hike. It would probably do them some good."
Again, my comment was directly rebutting the second sentence of this paragraph. Sorry, don't know how you can say I didn't even read your post. If you don't believe that asking for evidence for the paranormal is wrong and we skeptics should take a hike, then you should not have said it.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby ProfWag » 04 Mar 2010, 05:40

Kevin Kane wrote:
Nostradamus wrote:Why don't you just admit that you haven't been to a scientific meeting instead of trying to bluff us. It is very clear from what you have written that you have no idea what happens there. Your statements are completely wrong guesses. These things are not done at the meetings. These are really bad guesses. You get an F on this test.


Not a rebuttal or valid argument.



By the way, understanding the source of information is most certainly important in determining the validity of a statement. ND claims that you have not been to scientific meetings (and I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment, though I have no solid proof) and that he has been involved in science. As such, the casual reader who does not know either of you should now readily understand that your points come from an untrained source whereas other posters HAVE had some training in science. Again, most certainly a rebuttal AND a valid argument (and an important one at that).
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Nostradamus » 04 Mar 2010, 05:48

Kevin I don't need to refute your claims. You need to substantiate your unfounded notions.

You are posting unsubstantiated nonsense. I have been to a dozen SFN, several Cell Bio, and an ACT meeting as well as a number of smaller meetings. Have you ever been to any meetings? I doubt it.

Please substantiate your whimsical claims.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Nostradamus » 04 Mar 2010, 05:49

And yes your claims do deserve an F for lack of homework effort.
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby ProfWag » 04 Mar 2010, 05:51

Nostradamus wrote:And yes your claims do deserve an F for lack of homework effort.

Careful there ND. Kevin tends to get a little excited when people throw the "F" letter around... ;-)
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Re: The Skeptic Damping Effect

Postby Nostradamus » 04 Mar 2010, 06:08

Thanks for the heads up. Let me clarify that the F grade is for a failure to do any homework before posting a rant.
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