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How does genuine fortune telling work?

Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.

Re: How does genuine fortune telling work?

Postby Craig Browning » 04 Nov 2012, 00:54

Sidney. . . don't ask a question and ACT as if you have a genuine desire to learn about it from the metaphysical point of view when you're just seeking an opportunity to be another ass, just like 90% of the skeptic culture.

Karma & Reincarnation have a significant position in things that goes way outside the whole biblical hoopla, which I will agree, is quite questionable at best and which human beings have grossly bastardized in a mountain of ways. Karma & Reincarnation on the other hand, have a significant and growing level of analytical support even though it is difficult to "test" it in the sense or at the extremes the more cynically inclined want to do things. There is legit research when it comes to Reincarnation however, the UTNE Reader did a huge article on this fact about six or so years ago with reference to (I believe it was) the University of Colorado as well as UCLA and other such institutions that are involved in serious studies along this path. There is likewise that strange, almost constant factor when it comes to exceptionally intelligent but spiritually minded (not Religious. . . two different things) individuals throughout history, who refer to their own past-lives with uncanny accuracy, and that includes several young "Savants" in current time.

Karma, basically the idea of what goes around comes around, is one of the oldest and most universal beliefs known to human culture and even the so-called "intellectual" tends to recognize that the pattern exists. Philosophically speaking it is the "law" that makes the most sense out of any religious type of tradition . . . even biblically, we find that the Hebrews had a strong belief in Karma & Reincarnation but like much of their more esoteric tradition, this was drummed out of them and their culture during the Spanish Inquisition (don't you just love those gentle and forgiving Christians?)

There is an old saying that goes something like this, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice." . . . while I know the back-story to this famous line by Joseph Dunninger (from someone that was in the room when he said it), the fact of the matter is, you are of that latter group. I've found that most such folks simple do not want to know an honest explanation of such things, usually because they have a misplaced loathing towards "God" rather than being able to understand that there is a difference between Religion and living a Spiritual life -- I know several Atheists that are exceptionally spiritual when it comes to how they view and live life. They are critical when it comes to issues around the paranormal, but they aren't obsessive compulsive zealots for "the cause". In fact, many an ardent skeptic have deliberately distanced themselves from groups like the JREF and the bogus MDC because it has become far too extreme and cruel -- the Evangelic arm of the Atheist movement, some say.

You asked for an explanation to the issue of "Prophecy" and to the best of my ability, I've explained it to you based on what I know and have found to be consistent. There is one important clarification that must be made however; just because a person does Readings DOES NOT mean they are a "Psychic" (though many, in ignorance, claim the title). Anyone can learn to do a decent Reading by simply following the traditional shut-eye approach of study; the results can be confounding when it comes to one time skeptics that humble themselves enough to do such in that they find themselves making "hits" that have no explanation (other than the "excuses" of "coincidence" and "self-fulfilling prophecy" . . . two of the most over-used and lame "outs" ever uttered, and far from being "hard science" -- the level of critical proof so many want to apply to those they judge). However, there is a HUGE difference between doing a Reading or consulting any Oracle vs. Prophecy -- the latter is more or less carved in stone and cannot be avoided without extreme effort. A reading and what comes from one, is based on the current situation around the question itself. The information is fluid and much of it can and even will shift because the patron still has their Freedom of Will. The whole purpose of such sessions center on making decisions. Unfortunately most commercial Readers don't care about that requisite and are more interested in taking people's money vs. qualifying them when it comes to doing the Reading. My job as a Reader is to be a sounding board for the sitter and by way of the various tools (oracles) I have available to me, give them options by revealing what COULD BE if they choose to move in one direction over another. This goes back to the whole tradition of consulting the "Wise Ones" prior to making major decisions for the sake of preventing undue loss or harm to others. . . a long forgotten tradition that really could stand a revival given how cruel and selfish our society has become.

Now as I've already stated, I don't play the game so many eager cynics love to play when they find someone that have a belief in these sort of things. It's a no win scenario and for me. . . well, my health is already too fragile so I'm not going to get into a pissing contest that's going to stress me out. I know what I know based on decades of experience and study. I am considered to be one of the more open-minded students of this kind of thing in that I am willing to present either side of the argument and likewise apply both sides to my personal philosophy. . . to me, if a person claims to walk "the way of the wise" if means they aren't being gullible and living by blind faith and personal delusions; the Wise Ones of the past were the thinkers, researchers and "scientists" of their time; something so many of today's cynics tend to ignore and refuse to weigh. While I teach people to consider the more pragmatic perspective on all things paranormal and psychic I likewise encourage them to understand the spiritual/metaphysical as it applies in each situation. This is how things were in our world a few millennia ago, prior to the invention of "The Church".

enough said.
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Re: How does genuine fortune telling work?

Postby Grichard » 04 Nov 2012, 02:19

I haven't personally seen any psychics, but my Aunt did a few years ago, and the predictions of the psychic were scarily accurate. The psychic predicted that she would meet and have an unpleasant encounter with a man of a certain name later that year, and she did, as well as a number of other things. You could put that down to coincidence, but that doesn't convince.

Anyway that's my bit of anecdotal evidence.
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Re: How does genuine fortune telling work?

Postby Twain Shakespeare » 04 Nov 2012, 05:22

Arouet wrote:Any reason to believe those stories about the oracles really happened?


Short answer, yes.
Longer, any reason to suppose they didn't?

The documentation of these prophecies is vastly better than the documentation of the Biblical prophecies, which, in relation to the events prophesied, are arguably post-facto, and were culled from the free lance prophets of Israel and Judah. Delphi was an institution, and its words were taken seriously before fulfillment, unlike the Jews, who hundreds of years later, would say, "Well, that mad man Elijah as right!"

The only prophecy that looks indisputably like clairvoyance (not prophecy) I mentioned (or I know of) is Croesus' test. I have heard of equally accurate clairvoyance occurring since. (Arguably, the messenger might have known the answer, although that would have been such a sloppy procedure it is hard for a child of science to imagine an investigator making such a simple mistake.)

Sidenote, my all time fav oracle was the one that side the wisest of Greeks was a mere hoplite and barely competent stone mason. It also strikes me as the most unlikely correct statements to ever be made out of the blue! Both Xenophon and Platon related these events.

But my bottom line is experiential, and most people would consider it mere superstition, but Apollo revealed himself to me when I was six when he told me the myth of Oidipos. When I nearly died, I realized when I came back that I am Apollo's bitch, and have been all my life.

Having stated what little data I have in favor of he oracle, I will provide also the well attested fact that the Oracle was corrupt in that, on at least a few occasions, it was widely believed to have sometimes made desired predictions for money (Indeed, that was the Phocians rationale when they despoiled the Temple treasury) That, by the way, would have provided a motive for emphasizing (and embellishing) its accuracy, but the accounts by Herodotos of Croesos, of Xenophon and Plato about Socrates, and the identity of Homer, all predated the Phocian War.

Bottom line, the Oracle, and the Sybellines, appear to me to have been "shamanic institutions" and to have been a part of the same paranormal phenom the West has known since Swedenbourg (another documented clairevoyant) while biblical prophecies have all the appearance of constructed propaganda.

Arouet, do you have any specific reason to dispute any part of this analysis? (general skepticism in absense of more specific data is an acceptable answer, albeit disappointing)
Peace, love, and wisdom
"What's so Funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
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Re: How does genuine fortune telling work?

Postby SydneyPSIder » 04 Nov 2012, 11:53

Twain Shakespeare wrote:
Arouet wrote:Any reason to believe those stories about the oracles really happened?


Short answer, yes.
Longer, any reason to suppose they didn't?

The documentation of these prophecies is vastly better than the documentation of the Biblical prophecies, which, in relation to the events prophesied, are arguably post-facto, and were culled from the free lance prophets of Israel and Judah. Delphi was an institution, and its words were taken seriously before fulfillment, unlike the Jews, who hundreds of years later, would say, "Well, that mad man Elijah as right!"

The only prophecy that looks indisputably like clairvoyance (not prophecy) I mentioned (or I know of) is Croesus' test. I have heard of equally accurate clairvoyance occurring since. (Arguably, the messenger might have known the answer, although that would have been such a sloppy procedure it is hard for a child of science to imagine an investigator making such a simple mistake.)

Sidenote, my all time fav oracle was the one that side the wisest of Greeks was a mere hoplite and barely competent stone mason. It also strikes me as the most unlikely correct statements to ever be made out of the blue! Both Xenophon and Platon related these events.

But my bottom line is experiential, and most people would consider it mere superstition, but Apollo revealed himself to me when I was six when he told me the myth of Oidipos. When I nearly died, I realized when I came back that I am Apollo's bitch, and have been all my life.

Having stated what little data I have in favor of he oracle, I will provide also the well attested fact that the Oracle was corrupt in that, on at least a few occasions, it was widely believed to have sometimes made desired predictions for money (Indeed, that was the Phocians rationale when they despoiled the Temple treasury) That, by the way, would have provided a motive for emphasizing (and embellishing) its accuracy, but the accounts by Herodotos of Croesos, of Xenophon and Plato about Socrates, and the identity of Homer, all predated the Phocian War.

Bottom line, the Oracle, and the Sybellines, appear to me to have been "shamanic institutions" and to have been a part of the same paranormal phenom the West has known since Swedenbourg (another documented clairevoyant) while biblical prophecies have all the appearance of constructed propaganda.

Arouet, do you have any specific reason to dispute any part of this analysis? (general skepticism in absense of more specific data is an acceptable answer, albeit disappointing)
Peace, love, and wisdom


all very interesting, but ref postmodernism and 'the document'.

e.g.

Ultimately, postmodernists have a deep ambivalence about the document or record. While doubting the truth of history, while seeing archives as mere traces of now missing or destroyed universes of records and activity, while viewing records themselves as trick mirrors distorting facts and past realities in favour of the narrative purpose of the author/audience, they nevertheless often resort, paradoxically, to history and historical analyses. Michel Foucault has done important historical studies of mental illness, criminology, and human sexuality, for example. One postmodernist argues, displaying this very paradoxical ambivalence,

that all documents or artifacts used by historians are not neutral evidence for reconstructing phenomena which are assumed to have some independent existence outside them. All documents possess information and the very way in which they do so is itself a historical fact that limits the documentary conception of historical knowledge. This is the kind of insight that has led to a semiotics of history, for documents become signs of events which the historian transmutes into facts. They are also, of course, signs within already semiotically constructed contexts, themselves dependent upon institutions (if they are official records) or individuals (if they are eye-witness accounts). ...the lesson here is that the past once existed, but that our knowledge of it is semiotically transmitted.[12]

The record is a sign, a signifier, a mediated and ever-changing construction, not some empty vessel into which acts and facts are poured. The positivist model based on the integrity of a scientific resurrection of facts from the past and the record as an impartial, innocent by-product of action has been utterly discredited. And some archivists are now starting to explore the implications of these postmodern ideas for their profession.[13] Postmodernism is not necessarily antithetical to archival science, but a new kind of archival science -- or paradigm -- will be necessary to bring about a happy marriage of the two.

http://www.mybestdocs.com/cook-t-postmod-p1-00.htm


Or more directly from the source:

These problems may be summed up in a word: the questioning of the document. Of course, it is obvious enough that ever since a discipline such as history has existed, documents have been used, questioned, and have given rise to questions; scholars have asked not only what these documents meant, but also whether they were telling the truth, and by what right they could claim to be doing so, whether they were sincere or deliberately misleading, well informed or ignorant, authentic or tampered with. But each of these questions, and all this critical concern, pointed to one and the same end: the reconstitution, on the basis of what the documents say, and sometimes merely hint at, of the past from which they emanate and which has now disappeared far behind them; the document was always treated as the language of a voice since reduced to silence, its fragile, but possibly decipherable trace.

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspa ... ucault.htm
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