Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.
Sorry if this has been covered in this subforum in the past. Something I've wondered about ever since a guy I know in Sydney told a friend's fortune from 3-5 years out with incredible accuracy, about personal stuff that would happen that no-one would want, and that you couldn't make happen. And it all happened. I can elaborate on some of the details on request. This guy is not rich but he is in some demand for his abilities, and people even pay to fly him all over the country to tell their fortunes. He can do it over the phone at a distance, but he says it's harder, so ideally he should be physically quite close to the person. Also, he is quite old (80s), blind and infirm. He was a European migrant many years ago.
Similarly for people who have premonitions a few minutes or a day or two out -- clearly somehow 'information' is able to travel backwards in time for some psychics -- the question is, what is the mechanism or physics that allows 'information' to travel back in time to a gifted medium? Is it the action of somehow sentient 'beings' that can relay information back to a medium from the future -- i.e. time can go forwards or backwards for them, or possibly stand still -- or is it something more direct that is simply a viewer on the future?
Similar questions could be asked about other abilities in physics -- how does telepathy work? Are our brains some sort of biological antenna? etc.
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There are two completely different, yet related things afoot; the psychological or wordsmith element and the empathic/intuitive side of things.
Anyone can go out and buy a deck of Tarot Cards, learn their meanings and how to do a spread (Reading) and get amazing hits. All of this is possible without a single bit of mysticism, it's just the fact that you have learned the language of the cards, runes, numbers or whatever system you choose to study and on an analytical basis you know how to interpret them.
If you are a right brained, empathic individual with strong intuition you are able to translate the more subtle side of things and add to what the oracle is saying; coupling your analytical understanding with these natural aspects of your nature. This is when we start moving towards the "Psychic" side of the work, but I emphasize, this is but the "start" of things in that direction. Every one of the older books and lessons on most any major oracle or skill will tell you that the "device" such as the Tarot or someone's hand (palm) is only a key by which to help you unlock the more mystical side of the self . . . something I look at as being expanded awareness more than anything mystical. I've never seen an angel or imp sitting on a psychic's shoulder whispering things in their ear though you will hear tall tales of this kind of thing.
Yes, I do believe in having familiar spirits around a person be it Guardian Angels or Spirit Guides or even past relations. NO, I've yet to find a logical explanation behind the existence of such things, only experiences that reinforce my belief that such things are real. But let's address the other side of Readings -- the psychological/wordsmith element.
In the late 1940's a Psychology Teacher named Forer conducted a series of experiments using the Sunday paper astrology forecasts; he'd realized that how they were written made it difficult for them to not get credited with "hits" -- testimony by patrons of the column that such and such came true.
How could this be possible?
Because the wordage allows the person reading the forecast to see a full spectrum; the positive side of a given path as well as its polar opposite e.g. the name Forer Effect (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading for more insight) a.k.a. "Cold Reading". But there is a bit of confusion on this point in that those not studied in the actual work of doing Readings confuse the Forer formula with a Reader's tendency to lean on "stock lines" or "Barnum Statements" as they are often referred to. The fact being that Barnum Statements consist of two "habits" -- the aforementioned tendency of Readers to get lazy and fall back on "lines" used in the past that got positive reactions and too, the tendency to end a Reading on a high note by making bold and typically grand predictions (something most legit Readers will refrain from).
FAKE PSYCHICS EXIST. . . there is a very valid argument that most of the people claiming to be "Psychic" AREN'T and that's coming from within the trade itself. We understand that most of these people, especially the younger ones, are delusional and frequently have psychological and emotional issues that have lead them into this rather peculiar world. As I pointed out, many think that if they own a deck of cards and can "Read" them, they are Psychic. . . nothing could be further from the truth. They may be good Readers, which is somewhat easy to do if you are a personable and chatty sort that's got sound "Street Smarts" . . . the ability to size a person up practically at a glance. It's what we call a "Sherlock Holmes approach"; this is far more common than any other mode of Reading and has evolved into several different "sciences" such as FACS. . . the art of discerning truths from falsehoods by way of subtle facial twitching, eye movement, general body language, etc. and then we have the highly debated pseudo-science of NLP, which is a pot pourri of psychological and hypnotherapy styled tactics coupled with some of the FACS elements of observation.
To my mind genuine Psychic ability does require a pragmatic sense of observation; learning to "see" by way of one's sub-conscious. Development of one's memory and mental gymnastics, as I call it; learning to do basic mathematical computations in your head, memorizing and related recitation of artistic literature and literally learning to pay attention to even the smallest details when it comes to one's environment or the person sitting across from you, as the case would be.
This is where I differ with the majority of my cohorts within the Psychic industry, in that I tend to embrace this pragmatic side to thing vs. all the boogiemen and etheric entity explanations. You could say that I support much of what the skeptics & cynics have to say when it comes to the act of being a soothsayer BUT, I do not find such explanation and understanding to be "proof" of fraud -- "proof" that psychics don't exist -- in that I merely seeing these things as mechanical explanations to a Mystery; it's the exact same thing as learning how to do a Magic Trick properly. . . and you'll discover that I know a bit on that topic as well. . .
WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR FRIEND. . . I can't say if he was given this Reading by a genuine Psychic or not in that I was not present and able to observe the session. Thing is, the patron of such Readers play a role in things and it is their perception of what is being shared that lends to the Reader, validation. The more you review the session in your mind, the more you unconsciously change what was actually said, to being what you want to hear -- you subconsciously make the Reading fit circumstances in your life.
Yes, such Readers can give you some interestingly hard hits such as naming key people in your life or "seeing" that accident you had when you were about 8 and the scar it left on your knee. . . these are generic lines, a form of Barnum Statement that's based on statistical averages; most everyone has a scar on their knee and had a serious accident in around 8 years old. . . when they were learning to ride their first "full sized" bike or, if they live on a farm, it's about the time they actually start learning about the machinery and work cycle when it comes to said world.
This is a HUGE field and to give you a more complete answer would require loads more space. I've given you the bigger chunks when it comes to the facts and I'll be glad to answer, as best I'm able, your questions and as well as possible, I'll be kind in my replies . . . sometimes folks think I can be "jolting" for some reason.
For now, I can only encourage you to re-read this post a few times and digest what I've said.
That's funny, I actually did get a deepish scar on my knee when I was 7 years old...
Interesting discussion about cold reading, but this guy doesn't use Tarot etc, he just tells it the way it is (or will be) and speaks only to the future, no tricks with the past. I think there are genuine 'psychics' who are telepaths who can 'read' people's past simply by reading memories from subjects' minds in the present, and then there are the fake cold reading type with little or no abilities whatsoever, just a lot of intuition and social intelligence, but neither of these types can necessarily see into the future and just make stuff up that's fairly likely having convinced the subject of their 'abilities' by describing past events. (This is how I see John Edward working, by the way.)
I'm much more intrigued by the 'physics' (no psychology or mysticism needed) of being able to get information from the future into the present, i.e. information is travelling backwards in time.
I'll tell you what this guy foretold several months and years ahead to my friend, a respectable public service auditor, on a difficult phone reading:
- I can see drugs in your house
- You will have job problems in August 200x (2 years away)
- Your daughter will have health problems (then a very healthy young girl in her early 20s)
The thing is the 'information' he is receiving is kind of impressionistic as per his remarks -- he cannot say exactly why things will happen or what will lead to what, it's like a very blurry prism of emotionality. He also says he tells it the way it comes to him, he doesn't sugarcoat anything for his clients, if he sees bad things or gets a negative emotion he will tell you.
What then happened to my friend is that her daughter later fell in with a heroin addict, who she had met while travelling overseas and brought back on a tourist visa, who ended up staying at her house for a short while (although she wanted to throw him off the balcony), he was definitely dealing in drugs at the time because of his habit, and her healthy young daughter ended up contracting Hep C from the guy as well. All the trauma put her normally very good 'work quota' under par, and her fascist boss instead of asking her whether anything was wrong started making noises to have her sacked, as he was an ex-banking hardliner with no personal redeeming qualities or social intelligence whatsoever. The sacking noises and performance review and recommendation for firing started in exactly August 200x as predicted. Luckily we managed to pull her out of the work problem with some effort. Her daughter of course has potentially fatal Hep c for life barring the invention of some miraculous new antivirals, which is not out of the question.
So all 3 things came true, and all 3 were unusual based on existing evidence and likelihood, unexpected and unwelcome. He also told her some other things about relationships etc that he could see.
There is no way on earth my friend could have manipulated the situation to create a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' as you wouldn't wish those events on anybody. Further, who her daughter met while working overseas was completely outside her control, and it was the last person she would have been happy with for her daughter anyway. All the other events were pretty well external and the timings were outside her control -- she couldn't even subconsciously manipulate that stuff. And she desperately needed her job to pay her mortgage.
Furthermore, this seer already has a reputation as someone who can do this for anyone -- that's why she saw him in the first place, and why he is well known. He has a genuine ability to get information from the future somehow. My question is, how can you study this phenomenon in 'physics'? What is the scientific explanation? (Note, not the pseudoscep explanation.) All this is assuming the reader accepts the basic premise and story I'm recounting -- I personally know the person, know the events, know they are operating in good faith, etc, and can corrobrate them as pretty well not possible to have been willingly arranged, consciously or subconsciously, but of course you have to believe the account is factual. There are no doubt many other people around the world performing similar work. Further, one meets various other people in the course of one's life who have shorter-term very specific premonitions that come true, or clear telepathic abilities in the present, and you cannot discount the evidence that is presented to you.
I've read that some experiments in quantum physics have shown that causality can work backwards as well as forwards, i.e. future events can influence the past. There's a good article about it here from Discover Magazine (in three parts): http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/01-back-from-the-future/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C=
If so then this could have some potentially major philosophical implications, such as explaining why the universe and the Earth is set up against all the odds to be perfect for the development of life. It could be that our observations have influenced the development of the past in such a way to make our existence possible!
I'm not an expert on this however, so how it might be connected to phenomena such as precognition I don't know.
Okay, quantum mechanics has been covered. That sets the goundwork for my current beta hypothesis.
As I have stated, I have come to conclude that infrmation and consciousness are the same thng.
I am biased by my humanity to consider informaation to be a code. It can exist at rest, in electronic form, in a book, in nucleic acid.
The second example we have, of non-human languages (the gentic codes) indicate the capacity to create information is inherent to chemicals dissolved in H2O under earth like conditions at least.
The fact that the languages of RNA , .mDNA, and cDNA are different shows that meaning itself (at least in this case) is created ultimately arbitrarily, and is not itself inherent in reality.
This implies to me that our means of measurement fundamental shape what we perceive, and therefore implies to me that (within the co-ordinate system at least) the meanings of that system have validity.
For example, within the world of Dungeon and Dragons, magic works.
It seems to me that any code created for the purpose of interpreting patterns, be they patterns in weather, tea leaves, cards, tossed coins, tea leaves, planetss, spilled sheep guts, or economic indices will have at least as much as internal validity, and are at leas as good predictively as investment bankers.
Of course, this does not conflict with my expeiriential conviction that all perception and consciousness is "Illusio". If anything, it strengthens it, and shows that the pun is the fundamental unit of meaning, the accidental conflation f referent and sign. Fiat confusion!
"What's so Funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
Wow. . . lots of perspective!
Ok. . . Reaching into the future -- most will refer to it as "checking the Akashic Records" which, by legend, is a kind of "chest" each person has in which all things pertaining to each incarnation can be found. The problem is however, looking into the "future" is a fluid thing. . . the ONLY details that can be given to a person can only be based on PRESENT & EXISTING energies. We can shift the dynamics of what will happen in our future by changing our thinking processes. This is the key reason why so many skeptics see the fulfillment of such "prophetic" phenomena as being "self-fulfilling prophecy" -- we want the psychic to be right and so we churn the energy within out own mind and create the circumstances that make it happen. There's tons of truth to this when we look at metaphysical/Hermetic law and how the mind creates all things into our existence. Take a look at the works of Louise L. Hay (You Can Heal Your Life), the principles found in Science of Mind, the writing of James Allen and going back into antiquity to the teachings of Confucius and Lord Buddha; ALL of these "mystics" shared on this common truth, today it is being hyped as the "Law of Attraction" but it's still one in the same.
Using nothing but pure trickery I can replicate the very same thing you describe . . . at least when it comes to how you perceive things. Truth is, most of what we view as being prophecy is based on hind-sight . . . look at how many of Nostradamus' visions have "come true" AFTER THE FACT! This is because human beings manipulate what he wrote so as to make the prophecy fit given events such as the rise of Hitler, the Kennedy Killings, etc. You'll see the same thing when it comes to biblical passages.
Reading Without Devices . . . again, very common. I don't "need" a deck of cards, rune stones, etc to do a Reading such things are merely guides -- focusing tools. I can rely on my empathy and rapport with the sitter as well as those observations I mentioned earlier. There are ways that I can view the environment and by way of what is actually there that so many never see (they haven't been trained to see such things) I can extend an actual Reading; trust me, there are many signs surrounding us all every second of the day. There are techniques we use that allow us to "see" such things even when in total darkness. BUT, there are very rational explanations tied to these methods and not a bunch of mystical mumbo-jumbo. . . and I don't say that to be mean or to take side with the cynics; my personal challenge in life, as I've pointed out earlier, is to filter out the fantasiful and bring the idea of things Magickle and Mystical into present day understanding by pointing to what certain terms used in previous cycles, actually (most likely) pertain to in our present.
The problem someone like me faces, is the human desire to believe in the fantastic. While it does serve a purpose, it is not "reality".
YES, Real Psychics Exist . . . I've dealt with many, a small handful that are "notable" like John Edward but the majority of the one's I've known who would be considered "legit" aren't glory seeking egos and rarely present themselves as being the kind of person the majority of us envision a "Master Spirit" to be, but even legend and mythos tell us about Drunken Masters that relied on wine or other mind altering substances in order to capture the visions they would then translate into the form of a Reading. True "Masters" don't prop themselves up and above others, they SERVE the community . . . check out Frasier's "Chop Wood/Fetch Water" parable and you'll better understand.
Like I said earlier, this is a HUGE area of conversation & study. I come from a long line of sensitives, healers and spiritually oriented teachers as well as horse traders and notable con-men. I have seen both sides of the issue and made study of it for most of my life (well over 30 years). In all that time I've met fewer than two dozen souls that I'd call "Legitimate" Psychics that's how rare such people are. Understand though, there are many people in the world that we will perceive as being Psychic because they are learned and skilled in those areas that allow them to echo such abilities yet, what they do is actually based on the same techniques and principles I've pointed to.
I'm not in the position to sit down and write a massive compendium on this subject in which all of your questions can be answered, I can only encourage you to seek out the answers and to not fear discovery of things that will challenge your perception. Think of it this way, many people have seen David Copperfield "Fly", some even saying he flies out over the audience. . . I've even heard so-called "Mystics" tied to the New Age culture claim that David is able to do this because of his Jewish ancestry and his study of the Kabalah. . . This is all public assumption and perception -- our "need" to believe in the phenomenal. If however, you were backstage you would see what makes it happen or, if you happen to have a spare $60 grand or so, I could introduce you to the man that built it and holds the patten on it and you could own one of your very own . . . if you have a theater to work in, you could fly all over the place every day.
Illusions, though not quite as dramatic as this one, surround us. Our minds transform some of the simplest things into being the greatest of miracles because of this "hunger" we have -- our need to believe that something better exists beyond us. It is however our onus to create that "heaven" on earth by way of our realization and growth on mental, spiritual and conscious planes of existence a.k.a. KNOWLEDGE.
I hope I've not confused you and that you are able to more readily digest things a bit and in so doing, have greater clarity when looking at this person's encounter.
Re QM working backwards - I'm far from knowledgeable on these things, but I think that what you're talking about is that the forumulas that they use can work forward or backwards mathematically. Whether the arrow of time can flow backwards I think is unknown at this time.
My question with regard to that is re: basic causation. If the particles are interacting and moving forward in time, wouldn't it be the same particles interacting moving backwards in time? wouldn't that result in conflict? I haven't seen this discussed publicly so I don't know what physicists would say about it.
The Akashic records are one f the trans human awarenesses I hypothesize in my beta.
The Delphic Oracle was one of the most revered Oracles of the Mediterranean 2000 years ago.
The most famous prophecy was the one made to both Laius and his son, Odipos. There efforts to avoid that outcome actually brought about the conditions that fulfilled it!
That is the OPPOSITE of a self fulfilling prophacy.
Coming down to the historical record, Croesus conducted the first experiment into the accuracy of the Oracles. He sent messengers to the Seven most respected Oracles in the Eastern Med, and had them all ask, one hundred days from the date they left, "What is the Tyrant doing now?"
He was boiling beans that day (something he had probably never done before in his life.
The Oracle at Delphi answered correctly. The others did not come close!
(What are the odds or explanations for that?)
Having established Delphi was the most reliable by far, Croesus asked "If I wage war with Persia, what will be the outcome?"
The Oracle replied "A great kingdom will be destroyed!"
Grumbling "But which kingdom?" an unsatisfied customer road off to his Doom.
But my favorite Delphic response is this! Once asked "Who was Homer?" the Oracle said he was the son of Telamachos, son of Odysseos (which explains how he knew so much about the affairs of Bugtussle, I mean Ithaca!
Interestingly, by this time, the Oracle had so fallen into disrepute among intelectuals, they ignored the statement and continued investigating the question as sincerely as any Biblical Revisonist after being censured by the clergy!
"What's so Funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
I think that the topic is controversial amongst scientists. But if it were true then it would imply that the future is fixed, and the future interacts with the past in such a way to make that future come about. For example scientists have long been puzzled as to why all the physical features of the universe seem to be tuned perfectly to allow life to exist. If they were set up even slightly differently, then we wouldn't be here. It could be that if causality works both ways. Our existence has influenced the past development of the universe in order to make our existence possible (I know that is pretty mind boggling, but quantum physics is like that!)
I'd be careful with that whole finetuned thing. I don't think scientists think that today and have even hypothesized that if things were slightly different in certain ways life would flourish even more than it does.
It is also the view of prophecy among the people of the pre quantum Era. I have been using the muktiverse hypothesis, but I am finding "predestination" both more plausible, and more in conformance with my experience (aside from thee pseky portals to otherwhen that keep popping up.
Again, I am comi
ng to conclude that Plato's eternal pool of all knowledge and source of all is, as The Gosple sez "Fiat lux!" In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the word was Light. an eternal summa of pantheistic awareness!
"What's so Funny about Peace, Love, and Understanding?"
That's another interesting point, CB -- would be interesting to study the prevalence of psychic ability in the population as a percentage -- given that non-speudosceps know a few people who seem to be able to unequivocally do certain things (even when they have eschewed the MDC!), I wonder if we will reach a point where we can estimate what percentage of the population can do things under the various psi categories -- telepathy, premonition/precognition, second sight, etc.
It would be handy if many more people could read people's minds clearly and know when they are lying, or their true motivation -- making Mitt Romney and his cronies more transparent would be a very interesting exercise. Reading the minds of FBI agents covering up for 9/11 etc...
First things first. . .
This is a famous argument and while "a truth" exists within it, it is not a complete truth.
Based on what I understand of Karma and the whole aspect of a soul planning for their next incarnation, there are numerous maps or paths charted with each host important intersections at which one particular destiny can shift from one point to another; when a person is in the middle of such a hub is when the Psyhchic/Seer can give the patron any sense of certainty because it is quite literally a matter of what their choice will be during this point of "challenge" and sometimes they could be facing multiple directions based on the complexity around this choice. Regardless, each path from that hub leads to a new course with other karmic obligations or in some instances, repetition of lessons yet learned. Too, if there is an "appointment with destiny" that "must" be fulfilled, it will be. This level of karmic obligation CANNOT be undone, the subject must face that situation.
The future is always mutable and never rigid and always a matter of our personal decision BUT, we have made previous plans prior to inception that lay out this sense of "destiny" and because of this, the understanding of "the future" can prove a fickle thing. . . we may turn right instead of left when we leave the Seer's table and make finite changes that affect the process.
Sydney, I ask that you not bring up the JREF Cult and it's bogus challenge, there's been plenty of argument on that here and elsewhere and I will not play that game. I've had positive experiences with Randi, I consider Banachek to be a friend alongside several others of note within that group, but I do not endorse the hair splitting zealousness and cruelty that has oozed out of said fellowship, especially when it has so many ulterior motives. Too, I find it peculiar that so many "moral" individuals would seek to hang most any other child molester on the planet but they defend St. James and do all they can to obfuscate his known of activities.
So let's just not make that part of this thread.
I will point out however that the majority of people that I'd classify as being "plausibly the real thing" are quite private and not seeking the limelight. They live by an old axiom that basically states that what they have "inherited" is not a thing for self-aggrandizement or profit but an onus to serve and to do so modestly and without fan fare. As such they view those that betray this thinking as being "frauds" and are quick to point out how certain of these personalities come to know all matter of grief in later life, because they have knowingly betrayed the spirit.
I'm kind of torn on what this ideology implies in that I do believe that humankind will, in the not so distant future, come to understand such things BUT as a matter of actual present day science, not the mumbo-jumbo that's proven so common for so long. I think we are already catching glimpses of this, though most skeptics deny such, but with the amount of "thought control" robotics and computer based work, even games like "The Force", we have tangible proof that this form of psi is plausible even though it may require amplification at present. . . and that's not including what is known in the arena of telepathy type phenomena and how science is experimenting with it, even to the point of referring to their work by such established terms (and as most here know, don't ask me to fetch, I don't play that game. If I find the data as the result of casual reading I'm not taking down names, dates, etc. I'm simply not that anal nor is my memory that "focused", for lack of a better term).
I hope I've not confused the issue too much
the 'determinism' and 'time travel paradox' arguments are important ones.
I'm not sure why you're referring to 'karma' and a lot of thousand year old and more pre-scientific belief systems in your posts, Craig -- they don't prove anything or mean anything at all particularly -- you can't point to a religion or belief system that looks a bit dodgy (as they all are) and claim it as some sort of irrefutable doctrine or proof or manifesto from which you have to reason as though they're 'first principles', which they're not -- not without some hard physical evidence to back up the claims -- this has been the downfall of all the BS Catholic 'canonical law' and theology for centuries, and exactly the same BS occurs with rabbis and imams.
What does the doctrine of 'karma' mean -- it means nothing. At best it is an attempt to structure observations of human social systems -- that nasty people will have revenge exacted on them eventually by other people (we hope) -- this is just human agency and an artifact of humans interacting in social space, nothing to do with some universal law that transcends human relations, it's ridiculous. this is the whole problem with islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc etc -- they are just bad attempts at understanding and regulating human interactions, overlaid with high priesthoods and power trippers attempting to control the discourse for personal economic gain and to feel important -- something that happens in today's societies with doctors and 'experts' we keep appealing to.
ditto for beliefs like 'reincarnation' -- while the thinking certainly stems from something that has been observed, the theory of reincarnation doesn't hold much water for many logical reasons -- population explosion being one of them.
And I'm going to reference the 'MDC' whenever it seems relevant, what's wrong with that? What's with the laughable attempts to control the discussion through power discourses? Ain't going to happen in this little black duck's first amendment social networking rights...
Anyway, I just said MDC, you pulled out the JREF and a pile of other hooey that no-one cares about. Don't say 'beelzebub' either, he will appear over your left shoulder, and no-one wants that.
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