View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

Psychics and Frauds

Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby Arouet » 13 Oct 2011, 09:49

We can't all be at your level of reasonableness I guess. Good luck to you...
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07






Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 13 Oct 2011, 18:16

craig weiler wrote:And Yes, ProfWag, we all know what you think of psychics. I'm not impressed.

Ironically, that's exactly what I think of the evidence presented for psychics...unimpressed... Sorry.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby craig weiler » 14 Oct 2011, 02:08

Arouet,
I don't claim to be reasonable. That's your job. I'm psychic remember? I know what psychic ability is and it is accessible to me. It's no more possible to convince me otherwise than it would be for me to try to convince you that trees don't exist. If you were trying to convince someone that trees existed, how much effort would you expend? Would you be reasonable about it and allow for the possibility that trees might not exist in order to spare their feelings? That's the position I'm in. I choose not to spare your feelings.

You don't have psychic ability and you have to rely on others to tell you about it. Others such as myself will only go so far in trying to convince you. After that, well, we have better things to do. It's up to you be flexible. If you want to actually learn, great, but don't pretend for an instant that it's my job to convince you. Homey don't play that game.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
User avatar
craig weiler
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 03 Sep 2011, 12:08
Location: San Francisco Peninsula

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby Arouet » 14 Oct 2011, 02:50

craig weiler wrote:Arouet,
I don't claim to be reasonable.


Well, I'll give you that! :D

I'm a little confused why you come to discussion forums when you don't seem to really want to discuss topics. Or rather, I gather you only like discussing topics with people you agree with. I find that pretty boring actually, which is why I spend far more time on forums where I have discussions with people of opposing views. I learn more, and it's more fun to boot.

You are rude and closed minded. you selectively read posts and interpret them in your biased manner. You don't really read what is posted (you still haven't understood the point about bias in the ioannidis study) and add in your own tint to the post based on what you think they must mean behind what they actually wrote. I've said before, I don't get people iike you who think that just because its the internet one needs to be rude - but to each their own I guess.
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 14 Oct 2011, 05:29

craig weiler wrote: I know what psychic ability is and it is accessible to me.


Okay CW, just what is "psychic ability?"

craig weiler wrote:It's no more possible to convince me otherwise than it would be for me to try to convince you that trees don't exist.


So there you have it. You've made some derogatory claims towards me and other skeptics because we won't come over to the believer aisle and because you say we are closed-minded. Yet, your comment right there shows that you are the one being closed minded and bias. How could you ever participate in an actual psi experiment with an attitude like that? Any valid experiment that you would participate in would be skewed with that attitude. You ask arouet how there is bias in the ganzfeld studies, I think your comment gives a hint. You may have confidence in your "ability," but up to this minute, you haven't shown me anything paranormal. Sorry, just calling it as I see it. I would love it if you'd show me wrong though, but my hunch is, you won't.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby Craig Browning » 15 Oct 2011, 02:00

craig weiler wrote:Arouet,
I don't claim to be reasonable. That's your job. I'm psychic remember? I know what psychic ability is and it is accessible to me. It's no more possible to convince me otherwise than it would be for me to try to convince you that trees don't exist. If you were trying to convince someone that trees existed, how much effort would you expend? Would you be reasonable about it and allow for the possibility that trees might not exist in order to spare their feelings? That's the position I'm in. I choose not to spare your feelings.

You don't have psychic ability and you have to rely on others to tell you about it. Others such as myself will only go so far in trying to convince you. After that, well, we have better things to do. It's up to you be flexible. If you want to actually learn, great, but don't pretend for an instant that it's my job to convince you. Homey don't play that game.


Ok, Arouet and I have butted heads many times but I give him and others here that cling to the extreme a bit more credit; granted, it's taken me time to soften them up :twisted: On the other hand, I do believe each has a valid reason for standing their ground just as we do, Craig. While it is unfortunate, the fact that they make excuses to not play the game from our position on things, I do believe they have all learned a great deal about how we see and experience things vs. the huge pile of dung the "cult-mind" spoon feeds everyone on.

The line I highlighted above however, is what triggered me to respond in this case in that everyone has natural intuitive ability or PSI if you would. It is an innate thing even though it is suppressed in those that are Left Brained vs. Right; They are simply wired differently and thus, see things very different than we do; it is a matter of predisposition -- "Destiny" if you would. It is a mind-set that is frequently compounded by the various occurrences we have in life, be it that prayer that wasn't answered or the sense of betrayal we endured when it came to someone we thought "special" -- Magickle. Then too, it could simply be that our karmic gifts when born into this life, centered on the mechanical and deep pragmatism -- the need for adventure not in the romantic sense but for the greater good when it came to finding resources, expanding an empire and so forth. The "other" adventures are simply that of solving riddles or, more specifically, the riddles that seem to perplex our mind and dare us to step up to the plate and find a solution.

My quest down the psychic path was just that, trying to find answers as to why I had the sensitivity and understanding I had about total strangers. Let's face it, no four year old kid understands Forer, Barnum Statements or Erikson and yet there I was telling people exact information about themselves, their families and more, having dreams about places and events, etc. I wanted to know why, what it was that allowed me to do this. Being four my understanding on things was rather limited so when I saw a magician on Tv I started connecting the two things and so, the one became an integral part of my personal "left brain" journey. I couldn't deny what happened with me/through me, but I certainly became more and more aware of how environment and various modes of awareness would influence my feedback. I can't give complete credit to such mundane things, but I had to recognize that there was a truth to it as well. This is something most proponents of the Psychic world will not do, and just as one side of my "mission" in life is to help the naysayer come closer to understanding our side of things, so it is my obligation to help the believer to wake up and see just how "right" the rationalist are. It is only when these two points of view are brought together that we can find resolution and what I call the "Greater Truth" of the matter. While that's an oversimplification it is the gist of things.

When a psychic tells the skeptics "it's your job" it is the same redundant charge made by the skeptic to us -- PROVE IT!

How much more childish can we get?

We are in the middle of that old parable about leading the horse to water, neither side willing to partake of the other's cup and thus, no trust or communion can exist. Until that happens though, there will always be a division and sadly, a battle of wills. Man however, loves to complicate the simplest of things. :lol:
User avatar
Craig Browning
 
Posts: 1526
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 05:20
Location: Northampton, MA

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby craig weiler » 15 Oct 2011, 06:29

ProfWag,
I have made comments about your attitude towards psi. Nothing more. To the best of my ability I have avoided personal insults. I freely admit that I would not be a good experimenter for reasons of bias. As for being an experimental subject? That's what experimental controls are for. If they are sufficient, then I could do no harm to an experiment by participating.

You have asked me to prove my psychic ability. As you are not convinced by the scientific evidence or the 3 1/2 billion people who have had psychic experiences, I don't see much point in trying. I don't claim to have any psychic super powers and I think that's what it would take to convince you. My ability lies mostly in healing and while I have done this remotely, it has always been with people who were receptive. I have no idea what it would be like to try to heal someone through their brick wall of disbelief. I could try I suppose, but any lack of results could easily have more to do with your attitude than my ability. That's the problem with psychic ability: it functions best with trust, belief and openness.

You do not ever need to say "sorry" in any of your comments to me. I value your honesty regardless of whether I agree or not.

Arouet,
Unless telling you the truth is rude, I don't think I have done that. I have given you my opinions, not directed any insults toward you. I personally, don't think that you are very open to the idea of psi existing. That is not exactly a news flash.

Craig,
I am well aware of innate psychic abilities, I was merely phrasing it in an easy to understand way.

Bias is the elephant in the room. I am out in the open with my bias so that everyone understands my position whether they like it or not. I do not agree with Arouet or ProfWag, obviously, and pretending otherwise is something that I view as disrespectful. They might find me obnoxious, but at least they know where they stand with me. I am flat out admitting who I am.

And of course it's their job to convince themselves. No one can convince anyone else of anything. I'm not asking anything that I don't expect of myself.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
User avatar
craig weiler
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 03 Sep 2011, 12:08
Location: San Francisco Peninsula

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby Arouet » 15 Oct 2011, 11:17

Craig, you've made it clear that you have no interest in discussing things with me, so I'm going to return the favour and ignore you.
User avatar
Arouet
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 03:07

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 15 Oct 2011, 21:11

craig weiler wrote:ProfWag,
I have made comments about your attitude towards psi. Nothing more. To the best of my ability I have avoided personal insults.

Oh, please accept my apologies. I guess it was your comments such as “embarrassing lack of rational thinking” and “have you thrown your brains out the window,” that led me to think that. ;-) No hard feelings though! I do appreciate your opinion and as Arouet has mentioned, I come here to learn. I can't question my own skepticism unless I try to understand how and why believers feel the way they do. I believe it necessary to ask the hard questions.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby craig weiler » 15 Oct 2011, 23:11

ProfWag,
You have a point there. I'm not entirely civil. I'm an emotional person and it comes through in my writing on occasion. I'm not actively trying to offend you, it's just that my language gets colorful. I grew up with two brothers and a non stop barrage of insults (including from my father) until I grew up and got away from there. Consequently, I"m so thick skinned about it that something that seems mild to me might be more offensive to someone else. I'm not hypocritical either. I'm not offended even by direct personal insults. I don't care anymore. I will make an attempt in the future to tone it down.

I have gotten my biases out in the open. I think that this honesty is required for any real discussion; I felt this before I could articulate it and it took awhile for me to get clarity on that issue. Going around accusing other people of bias forced me to examine that bias in myself. It is the elephant in the room. What sort of discussion is it when everyone is pretending to be reasonable, but really isn't? It's not really a discussion at all. Everyone has an agenda and is just talking past the other person. I'm not comfortable with that.

I'm not sure where I'm heading with this but I'm sure it's better than the alternative.

Arouet,
Let me be clear. I don't want to do in depth examinations of anything with you. Other than that I'm fine.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
User avatar
craig weiler
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 03 Sep 2011, 12:08
Location: San Francisco Peninsula

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 16 Oct 2011, 02:06

It's all good Craig. If someone were trying to convince me and others that my chosen profession wasn't valid, I'd get a little testy as well. Considering the subject matter though, I don't think we do tooooo bad in this forum!
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby craig weiler » 16 Oct 2011, 04:21

ProfWag,
I thought that I had clarified this point, but apparently not. I'm not a professional psychic nor do I do psychic healing professionally. Years ago I tried to make a go of psychic healing professionally, but found that it wasn't a good business. I have two different day jobs these days. I am a general building contractor that specializes in handyman jobs and I have sort of fallen into also shooting cheapo commercials meant to be played on the iphone. I blog on psychic stuff, but this is more a resource for psychic people than anything else. I have a lot of professional psychics as readers. I'm also a writer and I'm working on my first book.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
User avatar
craig weiler
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 03 Sep 2011, 12:08
Location: San Francisco Peninsula

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 16 Oct 2011, 19:39

craig weiler wrote:ProfWag,
I thought that I had clarified this point, but apparently not. I'm not a professional psychic nor do I do psychic healing professionally. Years ago I tried to make a go of psychic healing professionally, but found that it wasn't a good business. I have two different day jobs these days. I am a general building contractor that specializes in handyman jobs and I have sort of fallen into also shooting cheapo commercials meant to be played on the iphone. I blog on psychic stuff, but this is more a resource for psychic people than anything else. I have a lot of professional psychics as readers. I'm also a writer and I'm working on my first book.

Oh, my bad. I had misinterpreted you as a full-time pro. Sometimes, I don't get a chance to read through each and every post so I'm prone to miss things from time to time.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby craig weiler » 16 Oct 2011, 23:43

No problem.
A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for.
User avatar
craig weiler
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 03 Sep 2011, 12:08
Location: San Francisco Peninsula

Re: Psychics and Frauds

Postby ProfWag » 30 Nov 2011, 22:51

Craig W,
I was reading your blog last night (there's some "interesting" stuff on there, BTW). Anyhow, on October 18, you made this comment:
"The skeptics that I encounter rarely ask questions or wish to know anything about me at all despite the fact that I tell them that I am psychic. (I can’t remember any skeptic asking me even the most basic question: How do I know that I am psychic?)"

Five days earlier, however, I asked you this question:
ProfWag wrote:Okay CW, just what is "psychic ability?"


So, I guess my question to you is: :?:
Isn't that the same question?
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

PreviousNext

Return to Psychic Phenomena / ESP / Telepathy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron