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Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 22 Jun 2010, 23:14

Indigo Child wrote:. You have shown me speculation that he's been caught cheating, not proof that he's been caught cheating. There is a world of difference between these two things.
The latter can get you sued if found to be false.

If you can't see him bend the spoon in his hands or put a magnet on his thumb in those videos, then it is of no use further discussing anything with you.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 22 Jun 2010, 23:17

Indigo Child wrote: There are several hypothesis
that can be used to explain Geller abilities perhaps he has ultra sensitivity and can detect metal, water, perhaps he has x-ray eyes, perhaps he produces unusual magnetic fields,
perhaps he can receive brain wave signals, perhaps he has super-muscular strength in his fingers(they actually seriously considered this possibility) All of these incredibly far-fetched
alternative hypothesis are potential non-paranormal explanations. Hence their reluctance to admit that the experiments prove he has psychic powers.

However, the simplest explanation here is that he has psychic powers. Case closed.

Or, since he won't do them again as is standard scientific practice, the only logical explanation that a reasonable person can deduct is that he cheated the first time. Case closed.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Indigo Child » 22 Jun 2010, 23:21

No I'm not, I'm saying their experiments did not rule out cheating. And to accuse me of claiming otherwise can be done for defamation and libel.


This is like proving the non existence of the invisible pink unicorn gambit. Your claim that their experiment did not rule out cheating is like me trying to prove
the invisible pink unicorn does not exist. It is unfalsifiable. You need to first establish with evidence, something that can be tested, that cheating was possible
under their conditions and demonstrate what kind of cheating. As soon as you resort to accusing the researchers of conspiracy that is where you lose every ounce
of credibility.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Indigo Child » 22 Jun 2010, 23:29

If you can't see him bend the spoon in his hands or put a magnet on his thumb in those videos, then it is of no use further discussing anything with you.


I see his fingers and hands make gestures, I do see any attempt at bending or putting a magnet on his thumb. You are jumping to conclusions, because you
are so depserate to believe he is cheating. If Geller was a proven fraud, then Randi would not have been done for libel.

You are criticising us "believers" for accepting the scientific evidence for the paranormal citing the experiments have insufficient controls,
and you yourself readily accept some speculative youtube videos posted by anti-paranormalists of alleged cheating in live tv demonstrations lol.
Like I said the irony is killing me.

A real skeptic cares about logical consistency in the statements they make. You evidently do not.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Scepcop » 27 Jun 2010, 18:22

ProfWag wrote:
Indigo Child wrote:A simply visual analysis under non-controlled conditions is not enough to prove how he is
bending the spoon. The reason I pointed out that even Puthoff and Targ did not accept his
spoon and ring bending acts was because visual analysis could not prove how they were being
bent, even despite how controlled their conditions were. I personally would accept it, because
it would be impossible for him to create 150lb force to bend the ring from just his fingers. They
did not.

You really should also point out that even Puthoff and Targ didn't conclude that what Uri did was paranormal. You are suggesting those experiments did when, in fact, they didn't even conclude that. Why are you so adamant that they did? If you are as suportive of their experiments as you appear to be, then you should at least agree with their findings.
"What we've demonstrated here are the experiments that we performed in the laboratory and should not be interpreted as of psychic functioning." http://www.uri-geller.com/books/geller-papers/g5.htm


That's not true. They just said that in the Nature article, cause if they said otherwise, it wouldn't have been published. But in private email to me, they said Uri Geller was real and had real remote viewing abilities.

Hal Puthoff:
“Geller did the same kind of remote viewing in our lab, that more than fifty others from the government and army have done as part of the 25 year remote viewing program. If the whole world has remote viewing abilities, why shouldn't Geller have some?”
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 27 Jun 2010, 19:09

Scepcop wrote:
That's not true. They just said that in the Nature article, cause if they said otherwise, it wouldn't have been published. But in private email to me, they said Uri Geller was real and had real remote viewing abilities.


So, per your words, they lied to someone.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby really? » 27 Jun 2010, 20:03

Scepcop wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Indigo Child wrote:A simply visual analysis under non-controlled conditions is not enough to prove how he is
bending the spoon. The reason I pointed out that even Puthoff and Targ did not accept his
spoon and ring bending acts was because visual analysis could not prove how they were being
bent, even despite how controlled their conditions were. I personally would accept it, because
it would be impossible for him to create 150lb force to bend the ring from just his fingers. They
did not.

You really should also point out that even Puthoff and Targ didn't conclude that what Uri did was paranormal. You are suggesting those experiments did when, in fact, they didn't even conclude that. Why are you so adamant that they did? If you are as suportive of their experiments as you appear to be, then you should at least agree with their findings.
"What we've demonstrated here are the experiments that we performed in the laboratory and should not be interpreted as of psychic functioning." http://www.uri-geller.com/books/geller-papers/g5.htm


That's not true. They just said that in the Nature article, cause if they said otherwise, it wouldn't have been published. But in private email to me, they said Uri Geller was real and had real remote viewing abilities.

Hal Puthoff:
Geller did the same kind of remote viewing in our lab, that more than fifty others from the government and army have done as part of the 25 year remote viewing program. If the whole world has remote viewing abilities, why shouldn't Geller have some?”
[my bold]

I'd like to remind you that those programs were stopped. I'd also like to remind of this; if those programs for RV actually worked we here in the US would be finding the bad guys foreign and domestic we want to find. They are found through lots of hard work. So the next time you say RV is real to anyone stop yourself and think why we can't find the bad guys as fast as RV would allow. You can include missing persons especially children
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 27 Jun 2010, 20:12

really? wrote:
I'd like to remind you that those programs were stopped. I'd also like to remind of this; if those programs for RV actually worked we here in the US would be finding the bad guys foreign and domestic we want to find. They are found through lots of hard work. So the next time you say RV is real to anyone stop yourself and think why we can't find the bad guys as fast as RV would allow. You can include missing persons especially children

Yes Scepcop, why don't you pose those comments from really? to Dr Puthoff. I would be especially interested in what he says about why RV can't find missing children. It should would be nice to minimize such horrific crimes. Or, do you not care about missing children?
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Indigo Child » 28 Jun 2010, 04:47

RV has not been stopped at all. The research in RV has been ongoing in the military for decades, and
millions of dollars have been spent on the research annually. Even up to this very date psychic powers
are researched by the US military and talked about as if they are real, such as psychic teleportation which
I showed in the Human flying thread. They would not have been researching this stuff for the past few
decades, if there was nothing to it.

These powers do exist and it is only a matter of time before they enter the scientific mainstream and are
publically acknowledged, even taught at standard schools and colleges. The people are ready for it as well,
as more and more people accept the paranormal now and there is a huge resurgence in spirituality in the
world.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby really? » 28 Jun 2010, 05:30

Indigo Child wrote:RV has not been stopped at all. The research in RV has been ongoing in the military for decades, and
millions of dollars have been spent on the research annually. Even up to this very date psychic powers
are researched by the US military and talked about as if they are real, such as psychic teleportation which
I showed in the Human flying thread. They would not have been researching this stuff for the past few
decades, if there was nothing to it.

These powers do exist and it is only a matter of time before they enter the scientific mainstream and are
publically acknowledged, even taught at standard schools and colleges. The people are ready for it as well,
as more and more people accept the paranormal now and there is a huge resurgence in spirituality in the
world.


More declarative statements. Can you corroborate anything you just written ? Why do I get the feeling from you you are a true believer ? Is there anything paranormal supernatural you do doubt ?
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Indigo Child » 28 Jun 2010, 10:56

I think you should develop the habit of doing google searches.

Here is the search string I used: remote viewing decades of research

This was the first hit: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages ... tedRV.html

Abstract - In July 1995 the CIA declassified, and approved for release, documents revealing its sponsorship in the 1970s of a program at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, to determine whether such phenomena as remote viewing "might have any utility for intelligence collection" [1]. Thus began disclosure to the public of a two-decade-plus involvement of the intelligence community in the investigation of so-called parapsychological or psi phenomena. Presented here by the program's Founder and first Director (1972 - 1985) is the early history of the program, including discussion of some of the first, now declassified, results that drove early interest.


I make declarative statements when I know it is supported by evidence.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby really? » 28 Jun 2010, 11:49

Indigo Child wrote:I think you should develop the habit of doing google searches.

Here is the search string I used: remote viewing decades of research

This was the first hit: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages ... tedRV.html

Abstract - In July 1995 the CIA declassified, and approved for release, documents revealing its sponsorship in the 1970s of a program at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, to determine whether such phenomena as remote viewing "might have any utility for intelligence collection" [1]. Thus began disclosure to the public of a two-decade-plus involvement of the intelligence community in the investigation of so-called parapsychological or psi phenomena. Presented here by the program's Founder and first Director (1972 - 1985) is the early history of the program, including discussion of some of the first, now declassified, results that drove early interest.


I make declarative statements when I know it is supported by evidence.


No you don't you cherry pick. I can cherry pick too.
AIR evaluation of Stargate's results

In 1995, the CIA hired the American Institutes for Research, a perennial intelligence-industry contractor, to perform a retrospective evaluation of the results generated by the remote-viewing program, the Stargate Project. Most of the program's results were not seen by the evaluators, with the report focusing on the most recent experiments, and only from government-sponsored research.[17] One of the reviewers was Ray Hyman, a long-time critic of psi research, and another was Jessica Utts who, as a supporter of psi, was chosen to put forward the pro-psi argument. Utts maintained that there had been a statistically significant positive effect,[18] with some subjects scoring 5%-15% above chance.[19] Hyman argued that Utts' conclusion that ESP had been proven to exist, "is premature, to say the least."[20] Hyman said the findings had yet to be replicated independently, and that more investigation would be necessary to "legitimately claim the existence of paranormal functioning."[20] Based upon both of their studies, which recommended a higher level of critical research and tighter controls, the CIA terminated the 20 million dollar project in 1995.[5] Time magazine stated in 1995 three full-time psychics were still working on a $500,000-a-year budget out of Fort Meade, Maryland, which would soon be shut down.[5]

According to the official AIR report there was insufficient evidence of the utility of the intelligence data produced. David Goslin, of the American Institute for Research said, "There's no documented evidence it had any value to the intelligence community.
Here's a link that calls into question your proclamation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing


there are two reasons in the USA that this government would disclose a secret a. the secret can no longer be kept secret. b. there's no need to keep something of no use secret. Like I pointed out to scepcop we still can't find the bad guys as quickly as RV would allow they are found through hard work. A final quote:
"Because even if Utts and her colleagues are correct and we were to find that we could reproduce the findings under specified conditions, this would still be a far cry from concluding that psychic functioning has been demonstrated. This is because the current claim is based entirely upon a negative outcome – the sole basis for arguing for ESP is that extra-chance results can be obtained that apparently cannot be explained by normal means. But an infinite variety of normal possibilities exist and it is not clear than one can control for all of them in a single experiment. You need a positive theory to guide you as to what needs to be controlled, and what can be ignored. Parapsychologists have not come close to this as yet." – Ray Hyman,


The correct conclusion is there can be no conclusion.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 28 Jun 2010, 18:50

Indigo Child wrote:I think you should develop the habit of doing google searches.

Here is the search string I used: remote viewing decades of research

This was the first hit: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages ... tedRV.html

Abstract - In July 1995 the CIA declassified, and approved for release, documents revealing its sponsorship in the 1970s of a program at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, to determine whether such phenomena as remote viewing "might have any utility for intelligence collection" [1]. Thus began disclosure to the public of a two-decade-plus involvement of the intelligence community in the investigation of so-called parapsychological or psi phenomena. Presented here by the program's Founder and first Director (1972 - 1985) is the early history of the program, including discussion of some of the first, now declassified, results that drove early interest.


I make declarative statements when I know it is supported by evidence.

Okay, let's look at this again for a second. Your original post said RV research has not been stopped:
Indigo Child wrote:RV has not been stopped at all. The research in RV has been ongoing in the military for decades, and
millions of dollars have been spent on the research annually. Even up to this very date psychic powers
are researched by the US military and talked about as if they are real, such as psychic teleportation which
I showed in the Human flying thread. They would not have been researching this stuff for the past few
decades, if there was nothing to it.

Yet, your supporting article says the research was declassified in 1995, but it does NOT say it is ongoing which was our original point. Do you have a reference that the military, CIA, or any government agency is still researching it per your comment?
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby Indigo Child » 28 Jun 2010, 23:50

Duh, it was declassified not outside of choice, but because of a legal act. Of course PSI research still goes on:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

They have obviously found something, which is why there has been constant research going on for the past few decades.
Put and 2 and 2 together. Now PSI research is getting more advanced.

Face it, PSI is proven and it is real. Move on. Geez.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's pow

Postby ProfWag » 29 Jun 2010, 00:09

Indigo Child wrote:Duh, it was declassified not outside of choice, but because of a legal act. Of course PSI research still goes on:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

They have obviously found something, which is why there has been constant research going on for the past few decades.
Put and 2 and 2 together. Now PSI research is getting more advanced.

Face it, PSI is proven and it is real. Move on. Geez.

Sorry, but again it appears you didn't read the article. From the abstract:
"It is the purpose of this study to explore
the physics of teleportation and delineate its characteristics and performances, and to make
recommendations for further studies in support of Air Force Advanced Concepts programs."
If the purpose of the study is to make recommendations for further study, then that means it's not currently ongoing.
For further reading:
CIA (which spent $750,000 on psychic research from 1972 to 1977) determined that the program was a waste of money and moved to shut it down. Congress had ordered the agency to take over Star Gate last year and conduct a study of its effectiveness. "There's no documented evidence it had any value to the intelligence community," says David Goslin, of the American Institute for Research, which the CIA hired to do the study. So the three full-time psychics still operating on a $500,000-a-year budget out of Fort Meade, Maryland, will soon close up shop.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0sAGc6psj

No, PSI has not been proven, but you would like to think that it has so that it supports your belief. It appears you're not looking critically at the whole picture.
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