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Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

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Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Scepcop » 09 Jun 2010, 16:30

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby ciscop » 09 Jun 2010, 21:31

i guess you are talking about
misdirection and showmanship

cause apart from those 2, uri geller doesnt have any powers

here is a magician reproducing ALL of uri geller tricks
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/lovasip#p/u/3/9mtprdOP_3A[/youtube]
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby really? » 11 Jun 2010, 19:02

In 1973, Carson had a legendary run-in with popular psychic Uri Geller when he invited Geller to appear on his show. Carson, an experienced stage magician, wanted a neutral demonstration of Geller's alleged abilities, so, at the advice of his friend and fellow magician James Randi, he gave Geller several spoons out of his desk drawer and asked him to bend them with his psychic powers. Geller proved unable, and his appearance on The Tonight Show has since been regarded as the beginning of Geller's fall from glory. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_C...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKmhv9uoiQ

What surprises me most about the people that think Geller has special powers is this. In all that time he's not once made any attempt to find an explanation for this ability. Has never bent a portion of the spoon that would be more difficult such as the bowl of the spoon bent inside out or the short axis of the handle bent. In all demonstrations the spoons have been bent along the long axis the weakest part. Those facts seem to escape the eye witnesses.
As for Targ and Puthoff they are credulous of Geller and bias in there own studies.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Indigo Child » 14 Jun 2010, 04:41

Uri Gellar has been scientifically tested, and it has been
demonstrated conclusively in these experiments that he did
indeed mentally bend spoons, read minds etc

The later demonstration of his powers may or may not be genuine,
it is possible Uri Geller felt in order to preserve his fame, he needed
to cheat a bit. However, there is no conclusive proof he has ever cheated.

The Tonight show was not a demonstration of inability, but a demonstration
of a reluctance to show ability. Understandly so, because Uri Geller was staged
by Randi and the host, and if he was a real psychic he would have picked that up,
interfering with his abilty.

In so called exposures of showing him cheating by pre-bending, none of this is
apparent from watching the video itself. In the scientific tests the bent objects
were later examined scientifically and it was shown that no motor force was used
to bend the objects.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby really? » 14 Jun 2010, 05:53

Indigo Child wrote:Uri Gellar has been scientifically tested, and it has been
demonstrated conclusively in these experiments that he did
indeed mentally bend spoons, read minds etc

The later demonstration of his powers may or may not be genuine,
it is possible Uri Geller felt in order to preserve his fame, he needed
to cheat a bit. However, there is no conclusive proof he has ever cheated.

The Tonight show was not a demonstration of inability, but a demonstration
of a reluctance to show ability. Understandly so, because Uri Geller was staged
by Randi and the host, and if he was a real psychic he would have picked that up,
interfering with his abilty.

In so called exposures of showing him cheating by pre-bending, none of this is
apparent from watching the video itself. In the scientific tests the bent objects
were later examined scientifically and it was shown that no motor force was used
to bend the objects.


I actually watched Geller on Carson live. I remember full well Geller had no reluctance to perform his magic trick prior to actual demonstration.

Uri demonstrating his powers of PK-perhaps not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTxf9XP36M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVKNWgCG ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDvtTP41 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinkCry5 ... re=related


As I've pointed out Geller has never bent a spoon or key without holding it and the bending always occurs along the long axis which is the easiest way to bend such objects using elbow grease. I'd believe Geller could do what he claims if he was
1. Never be allowed to touch an object. 2. Bend an object from a distance. 3. Bend an object along a portion offering greater resistance. 4. *Bend other and different types of metal objects 5. Bend non metallic objects. 5. **Show an increase in the ability to bend objects quicker. Be more proficient. 6. Offer up some explanation how an object can be bent by human thought.
Indigochild, for one that prides themselves on being a true skeptic you show precious little of such a thing and to thinking skeptically.


* Move beyond spoon bending
** After all he's been doing it for 30+ years.

Shall we pick up this thread again for those that missed it the first time ? http://debunkingskeptics.com/forum/view ... &sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Indigo Child » 14 Jun 2010, 10:05

Really,

If you are going to think critically about this, you should be able
to separate Uri Geller as a test subject by scientists like Pulthoff
and Targ, and Uri Geller as a TV celeb demonstrating things on show.
It is possible, as I said that Uri Geller does cheat to preserve his star,
but as far the scientific experiments go, the controls were vigorous and
several experiments were conducted which were able to rule out basic
things like magic tricks to sophisticated international intelligence scams.

The spoons were examined by sophisticated microscopes to show evidence
of any force being applied on them. There was no evidence, on the
contrary evidence showed that the spoons melted at a molecular level.

You seem to have faith in science and its vigorous scientific method, but
your faith seems to vanish with these experiments on Uri Geller. Can you explain
this inconsistency?

Regarding the so-called debunkling of Uri Geller. Nothing of the sort has been done,
all Randi has done is showed how similar feats Geller does can be done using magic tricks
such as concealed magnets(compass effect), concealed mirrors(mind reading) and pre-bending
of spoons and keys. This does not in fact prove that is how Geller did it, and nor are Randi
suggested reproductions of the same quality as Geller does them. For instance, in the compass
effect Randi accuses him of using a concealed magnet in a thump tip. The only proof that this
happened is speculation of an unusual hand gesture he does. Randi demonstration shows a little
magnet attached to the edge of his palm can replicate the effect. However, Randi puts his palm
very close to the compass, whereas Geller has his palm about 20cm above the compass, which
would mean the magnet would not have enough field strength to affect the compass.
Secondly, the compass moves immediately when Randi puts his palm over it, because that is exactly how it
would behave if a magnet is placed above it. In contrast, in Gellers demonstration there is a delay
before the compasss moves, which is impossible if there was indeed a magnet over it.

I am not going to rule out trickery though. It is still possible, because in the end all I am seeing is a TV demonstration,
which has little to no controls. I only accept controlled scientific experiments as conclusive.
Last edited by Indigo Child on 15 Jun 2010, 02:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby really? » 14 Jun 2010, 11:12

Indigo Child wrote:Really,

If you are going to think critically about this, you should be able
to separate Uri Geller as a test subject by scientists like Pulthoff
and Targ, and Uri Geller as a TV celeb demonstrating things on show.
It is possible, as I said that Uri Geller does cheat to preserve his star,
but as far the scientific experiments go, the controls were vigorous and
several experimented were conducted which were able to rule out basic
things like magic tricks to sophisticated international intelligence scams.

Why cheat at all if you can do what you claim ?

Indigo Child wrote:The spoons were examined by sophisticated microscopes to show evidence
of any force being applied on them. There was no evidence, on the
contrary evidence showed that the spoons melted at a molecular level.

How do you know heat wasn't applied to the metal. You don't. Of course there would be evidence of spoons being melted. All metal utensils start out as molten metal.


Indigo Child wrote:You seem to have faith in science and its vigorous scientific method, but
your faith seems to vanish with these experiments on Uri Geller. Can you explain
this inconsistency?

Because testing done on on Geller by Putoff and Targ was anything but rigorous. These two fellows are as credulous as they come.

Indigo Child wrote:Regarding the so-called debunkling of Uri Geller. Nothing of the sort has been done,
all Randi has done is showed how similar feats Geller does can be done using magic tricks
such as concealed magnets(compass effect), concealed mirrors(mind reading) and pre-bending
of spoons and keys. This does not in fact prove that is how Geller did it, and nor are Randi
suggested reproductions of the same quality as Geller does them. For instance, in the compass
effect Randi accuses him of using a concealed magnet in a thump tip. The only proof that this
happened is speculation of an unusual hand gesture he does. Randi demonstration shows a little
magnet attached to the edge of his palm can replicate the effect. However, Randi puts his palm
very close to the compass, whereas Geller has his palm about 20cm above the compass, which
would mean the magnet would not have enough field strength to affect the compass.
Secondly, the compass moves immediately when Randi puts his palm over it, because that is exactly how it
would behave if a magnet is placed above it. In contrast, in Gellers demonstration there is a delay
before the compasss moves, which is impossible if there was indeed a magnet over it.

20 cm did you measure it ? As for the delay you can't tell from the overhead camera angle whether Geller moved his hand closer. So it's not impossible to create a delay because we can clearly see the compass needle behave as it should when in the presence of a magnet.

Indigo Child wrote:I am not going to rule out trickery though. It is still possible, because in the end all I am seeing is a TV demonstration,
which has little to no controls. I only accept controlled scientific experiments as conclusive.

All you've shown to support your contention is what ?
With all of the apologies from you on Geller's behalf I'd say your consideration that Geller used trickery is only lip service.

It's been 40 years since Geller was tested by Tart, Targ and Puthoff and nothing ever came of it. Why ?
There might be somebody out there that can bend a spoon by paranormal talent, but Geller isn't one of them.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Nostradamus » 14 Jun 2010, 11:42

Geller was and is a magician. He has no powers other than misdirection.

The Tonight show was not a demonstration of inability, but a demonstration
of a reluctance to show ability.

A laughable claim.

and if he was a real psychic he would have picked that up,
interfering with his abilty.

If he was a real psychic he'd never have fallen into the trap of having to demonstrate his so-called powers.

In so called exposures of showing him cheating by pre-bending, none of this is
apparent from watching the video itself.

It's so obvious unless you are blind.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Jun 2010, 19:16

Nostradamus - This comment intrigues me. May I ask you to elaborate?

If he was a real psychic he'd never have fallen into the trap of having to demonstrate his so-called powers.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby ProfWag » 14 Jun 2010, 21:28

Indigo Child wrote:Uri Gellar has been scientifically tested, and it has been
demonstrated conclusively in these experiments that he did
indeed mentally bend spoons, read minds etc

Hi Indigo,
Could you be more specific as to which experiments you are referring that "demonstrated conclusively in these experiments that he did indeed mentally bend spoons?"
Thanks
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Indigo Child » 15 Jun 2010, 11:37

Progwag and Really,

Watch these scientifically controlled experiments by SRI:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1225

It is clear the controls were rigorous, and Uri Geller succeeded to
demonstrate his abilities under these conditions.Most of the experiments
done on him were double blind and involved meticulous data collection methods
and sophisticated analysis.

Why would Geller want to submit himself to the tests of some amateuer, atheist and hate
organization like JREF, when he is already succeeded at the tests of professional scientists at one of
the most prestigious scientific institutes in the world. Randi has no credentials, sorry.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby ProfWag » 15 Jun 2010, 21:00

Indigo Child wrote:Progwag and Really,

Watch these scientifically controlled experiments by SRI:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1225

It is clear the controls were rigorous, and Uri Geller succeeded to
demonstrate his abilities under these conditions.Most of the experiments
done on him were double blind and involved meticulous data collection methods
and sophisticated analysis.

Let me give you an example of how "unrigorous" those tests were and hopefully you will see the error in your critical thinking. From the first video, he did an experiment with steel balls inside steel containers. Any magician knows that if one were to ever-so slightly tough the table, the container holding the ball would move. It's almost undetectable, but it's there if you know to look for it. Granted, Uri wasn't allowed to touch the table, but Puthoff was and he had to touch the containers each time he pulled one out of the box and place it on the table. I promise you that at some point, he touched it enough to make the container holding the steel ball move (remember the containers were all placed against the edges of the box). If he was REALLY able to detect which container held the ball, he would have been able to do so without ANYONE touching the containers or the table. This didn't happen, thus the experiment was not "rigorous" in the least.
Here's Indigo Child's grade for providing evidence for controlled experiments from the Uri Geller Stanford tests: F for Fail.
Can we now move on to something a little more "authentic" in the world of the paranormal? Oh wait, there isn't such a thing as a rigorous experiment in the world of the paranormal. Period.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby Indigo Child » 16 Jun 2010, 08:11

I am going to return you your F grade for your ridiculous counter explanation for the hidden
object experiments. You said any magician would be able to detect the micro movement of the steel
ball when the experimenter picked one out? That kind of magical hypersensitivity you claim magicians have
is a claim in it own right? Do you have proof of the magicans who have done this? Are you making it up? I watched
the video again, and at no single instance, did the experimenter disturb the other cans when eliminating
a can Geller told him to. Geller is barely even looking at the cans when the experimenter removes it.

Moreover, the hidden object experiment was also done with water in the can, and a permenant magnet.
Geller still succeeded.

Stop spouting nonsense about the controls not being sufficient. This was a double blind experiment, the object
was hidden and then randomized by a randomizer. None of the experiments knew where the ball was. They attempted
the experiments with various different target objects.

Finally, I find it interesting how you have failed to explain the other experiments. In the hidden drawing experiment,
15 different drawing were placed inside a safe in a double sealed opaque envelope of which none of the researchers
knew the code, and required signatures from both researchers to get it opened. Geller got everysingle one right
(his off target one, was very similar as well). Some of these were double blind.

In the double blind die experiment, a die inside a metal box die, both provided by SRI is shaken inside, nobody
knowing which face the dice is showing. Geller gets it right 8/8 for a probability score of 1 in a million. It cannot
get anymore controlled than this.

In the first PK experiment with the electric scales and 1g weight. The controls applied were covering the scales with
an alumnium can, then covering that with a glass cylinder to eliminate air currents. Then artefacts readings were taken
of various stimuli such tapping the glass cylinder, tapping the table, kicking the table, jumping up and down, a day long recording
with bringing in static eletricity dishcharge and with magnets. The results show that Geller produces completely different artefacts
and was able to increase and decrease the weight on the scales. He did not at any point touch the jar.

In the second PK experiment with the magnometer, Geller was able to produce a magnetic field comparable to that of the Earth's
magnetic field.

In the unconfirmed PK experiments of spoon and ring bending, the controls applied were mirros above and below his hands and
filming from every angle. The ring was manufactured at SRI and was measured to require 150lb force to bend it.

The controls were very rigorous and professional, in front of which Randi's experiments are amateuer.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby really? » 16 Jun 2010, 09:11

Indigo Child wrote:I am going to return you your F grade for your ridiculous counter explanation for the hidden
object experiments. You said any magician would be able to detect the micro movement of the steel
ball when the experimenter picked one out? That kind of magical hypersensitivity you claim magicians have
is a claim in it own right? Do you have proof of the magicans who have done this? Are you making it up? I watched
the video again, and at no single instance, did the experimenter disturb the other cans when eliminating
a can Geller told him to. Geller is barely even looking at the cans when the experimenter removes it.

Moreover, the hidden object experiment was also done with water in the can, and a permenant magnet.
Geller still succeeded.

Stop spouting nonsense about the controls not being sufficient. This was a double blind experiment, the object
was hidden and then randomized by a randomizer. None of the experiments knew where the ball was. They attempted
the experiments with various different target objects.

Finally, I find it interesting how you have failed to explain the other experiments. In the hidden drawing experiment,
15 different drawing were placed inside a safe in a double sealed opaque envelope of which none of the researchers
knew the code, and required signatures from both researchers to get it opened. Geller got everysingle one right
(his off target one, was very similar as well). Some of these were double blind.

In the double blind die experiment, a die inside a metal box die, both provided by SRI is shaken inside, nobody
knowing which face the dice is showing. Geller gets it right 8/8 for a probability score of 1 in a million. It cannot
get anymore controlled than this.

In the first PK experiment with the electric scales and 1g weight. The controls applied were covering the scales with
an alumnium can, then covering that with a glass cylinder to eliminate air currents. Then artefacts readings were taken
of various stimuli such tapping the glass cylinder, tapping the table, kicking the table, jumping up and down, a day long recording
with bringing in static eletricity dishcharge and with magnets. The results show that Geller produces completely different artefacts
and was able to increase and decrease the weight on the scales. He did not at any point touch the jar.

In the second PK experiment with the magnometer, Geller was able to produce a magnetic field comparable to that of the Earth's
magnetic field.

In the unconfirmed PK experiments of spoon and ring bending, the controls applied were mirros above and below his hands and
filming from every angle. The ring was manufactured at SRI and was measured to require 150lb force to bend it.

The controls were very rigorous and professional, in front of which Randi's experiments are amateuer.


You stated Geller might have used trickery in a previous posting in this thread, but now everyone knows it was just lip service.
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Re: Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ talk about Uri Geller's powers

Postby ProfWag » 16 Jun 2010, 10:28

Indigo Child wrote:I am going to return you your F grade for your ridiculous counter explanation for the hidden
object experiments. You said any magician would be able to detect the micro movement of the steel
ball when the experimenter picked one out? That kind of magical hypersensitivity you claim magicians have
is a claim in it own right? Do you have proof of the magicans who have done this? Are you making it up? I watched
the video again, and at no single instance, did the experimenter disturb the other cans when eliminating
a can Geller told him to. Geller is barely even looking at the cans when the experimenter removes it.

Moreover, the hidden object experiment was also done with water in the can, and a permenant magnet.
Geller still succeeded.

Stop spouting nonsense about the controls not being sufficient. This was a double blind experiment, the object
was hidden and then randomized by a randomizer. None of the experiments knew where the ball was. They attempted
the experiments with various different target objects.

Finally, I find it interesting how you have failed to explain the other experiments. In the hidden drawing experiment,
15 different drawing were placed inside a safe in a double sealed opaque envelope of which none of the researchers
knew the code, and required signatures from both researchers to get it opened. Geller got everysingle one right
(his off target one, was very similar as well). Some of these were double blind.

In the double blind die experiment, a die inside a metal box die, both provided by SRI is shaken inside, nobody
knowing which face the dice is showing. Geller gets it right 8/8 for a probability score of 1 in a million. It cannot
get anymore controlled than this.

In the first PK experiment with the electric scales and 1g weight. The controls applied were covering the scales with
an alumnium can, then covering that with a glass cylinder to eliminate air currents. Then artefactelieve a child could see that it was not s readings were taken
of various stimuli such tapping the glass cylinder, tapping the table, kicking the table, jumping up and down, a day long recording
with bringing in static eletricity dishcharge and with magnets. The results show that Geller produces completely different artefacts
and was able to increase and decrease the weight on the scales. He did not at any point touch the jar.

In the second PK experiment with the magnometer, Geller was able to produce a magnetic field comparable to that of the Earth's
magnetic field.

In the unconfirmed PK experiments of spoon and ring bending, the controls applied were mirros above and below his hands and
filming from every angle. The ring was manufactured at SRI and was measured to require 150lb force to bend it.

The controls were very rigorous and professional, in front of which Randi's experiments are amateuer.

I'm not going to argue with you Indigo about how a magic trick was done. I mean, I can explain how Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear, but if you prefer to believe that it really disappeared, then there's not much else I could say. It was obvious that Uri set the controls of the experiment rather than somone who knew how to prevent trickery which makes it invalid. If I can show that he did a trick during the Stanford tests, which I did, then it is logical that all of the experiments were tricks. If you really believe those tests were "very rigorous," then you really want to believe in the powers of Uri Geller so there's nothing else I can say, so I won't other than it is obvious that you are not a magician nor understand anything about what constitutes a proper protocol.
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