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Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

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Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 19 May 2010, 02:52

first of all.. sorry for the title craig
i just like writting overhyped titles just like scescop does

So.. this is a Show where Derren Brown an intelligent, sincere and charming guy who doesnt have a reason to lie (sorry.. scescop´s way of explaining things again)..

let me start again..
so Derren has this new show in UK were he investigates people who claim paranormal ability
this is the first episode a medium (the 2nd is xray vision and so on...)

it is great
here is how it goes
1. Derren meets Joe Powell the Medium
2. Joe Powell does a series of readings getting great hits
3. Derren does a reading and gets some hits
4. Joe Powell does a Psychic Show
5. Richard Wiseman explains away the way cold reading works and you can see piece by piece how he did the show
6. Joe Powell refuses to do a test he had previously agreed on (how weird!)
7. Last reading goes wrong since sitter meet Derren
8. Derren and Joe face each other one last time
9. Some funny stuff comes up showing how Joe had some information of a sitter

It is really great, i think is quite entertaining
and like all believers, Joe he refuses to be challenged

too bad.. :-(
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtlhjsiBEDw[/youtube]
this is the first chapter out of 5, if it grabs your attention you can find the rest in ScepticaTv on youtube

i Particulary like ¨what about the affair?¨ thing..
that´s reminded me so much of David Hoy.. a mindreader-christian charlatan who use to ask when meeting somebody ¨hows your father?¨ letting people think.. he knew something about their father..

i have a story on this..
one time i was table hopping in a bar.. doing mindreading and stuff like that
a really pretty girl came and ask me if i could tell her about her boyfriend.. and i just asked ¨he isnt married, isnt him?¨...
yep.. sure enought.. he was!.. and the girl was so impressed i decided not to do anything else that night.. (just like george constanza on seinfeld.. you pull off a big joke.. and you are off).

so.. this is how readings work
nothing more, nothing less
nothing far beyond :lol:

hope you have fun
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ProfWag » 19 May 2010, 03:02

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out, but if it's anything like Richard Gage talking about stuff he doesn't know about, I'm not going to watch... ;-)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 19 May 2010, 06:15

oh!
believe me
Derren knows what he is talking about since he does the same type of tricks this scam artists use

and like i said.. i particulary liked this show since you could see Richard Wiseman!
that guy is awesome, i love his books and youtube videos.
a profesional magician that is also a psychologist?!?! oh man!.. that´s great!
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby Nostradamus » 19 May 2010, 12:13

I enjoy watching Derren. He's not the dolt Gage is.

It's interesting how baloney artists get under the eye of the camera and then deny their failings.
Scimitars were not available - beware January 19, 2038 is upon us.
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby Craig Browning » 20 May 2010, 09:41

Yea, yea... Derren and Ian Rowland of the Lords of London and the new gurus of cynicism

I actually like Derren even though I don't agree with some of the things he does in that it boarders on exposure in a bad way... but then most cynics get themselves into trouble for this very reason. That's why Ian Rowland's North American lecture tour got canceled... boycotted because he'd been exposing too much stuff on Tv.

I've been hearing about this show on another forum. I just stay out of all the gloating "yea, he showed them" horse pucky. I have my experiences with things that I cannot deny. As I've said before, I'm only 93% skeptic. I've seen and experienced far too much to step over the line and give up that other 7%. :mrgreen:
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 20 May 2010, 12:41

hahahahaha
i knew it !.. just like koenig.. you hate exposure
you still are one of those magi that want people to believe they are the real deal in the cagliostro type of ways
who the hell cares. is just entertaining and nobody is the real deal

by the way
when people use tricks to say they have supernatural abilities i dont see it as exposure
it is teaching, and that is welcome in my book, so sorry !.. i will keep doing my part teaching my friends and famiy and audiences how psychics and mediums and witches (yes we have those in mexico) do their stuff

common craig, he doesnt exposed anything other than cold reading and thats already part of the public knowledge (ok.. not to everybody)

i dont see it as cynicism is rather skepticism, he met with a guy, he tryed to do a test, the guy refused, there is an obvious conclusion (he doesnt have powers... nor does anybody else for that matter right now)
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ProfWag » 20 May 2010, 20:57

I tend to believe that if someone claims to have paranormal powers, then explaining the secrets of how they do it to a layman is really the only way to expose that person as a fraud. As a former magician, I'm understanding of not exposing magic tricks and don't believe there is any fraud involved in magic. Playing with someones emotions, money, etc. is a different story all together. Derren, Banacek, etc. have made a good living off of playing the part of a psychic without claiming to actually BE psychic. So, if one is good, they can do mentalism as entertainment without the need to have people convinced that psychic powers are possible. My humble opinion anyway.
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby Craig Browning » 20 May 2010, 22:04

ProfWag wrote:I tend to believe that if someone claims to have paranormal powers, then explaining the secrets of how they do it to a layman is really the only way to expose that person as a fraud. As a former magician, I'm understanding of not exposing magic tricks and don't believe there is any fraud involved in magic. Playing with someones emotions, money, etc. is a different story all together. Derren, Banacek, etc. have made a good living off of playing the part of a psychic without claiming to actually BE psychic. So, if one is good, they can do mentalism as entertainment without the need to have people convinced that psychic powers are possible. My humble opinion anyway.


No... Brown only claims to use NLP which he don't, amongst other things. They promote using a different set of lies to manipulate the public in which "science" is the "religion" whereas the Psychic thing a century ago, leaned on Spiritualism and even the Occult... either way, a lie is a lie and when a showman claims to be using one thing but isn't and doesn't clarify that point, he/she is just as guilty (if not more so) than the Sylvia Brown types out there (and she's not even a good con-artist).

Understand, Banachek is a business acquaintance of mine as is his partner Scott Wells. I have tremendous respect for them and from what I've picked up, Steve gives me my due as well though we may not see eye to eye on certain points... we can agree to disagree I guess you could say. But some of what Brown, Rowland and others (primarily out of the UK but the list includes Jamie Ian Swiss, P&T and a few lesser known American acts) offers a very big question mark in my mind when it comes to expose' and worse, neutering Mentalism so that it is nothing more than the same crap we see at a kiddie show.

Invoking an investment of belief is what makes Mentalism work, whether your cover story is the Power of Suggestion, NLP, Body Language, FACS, etc. or being a Clairvoyant. The instant you lower your standards and start presenting such programs as being "simple magic tricks" you've not just hurt your own advantage, but the art as a whole... especially given how fast kids jump on-line now days and find the name and price of this or that effect, having it in their grubby little paws within a week (frequently, not via legal channels).

If you haven't guessed, I'm a die-hard when it comes to Mentalism and Bizarre Magick. I was doing it well before it became a trend... I can even remember when there were fewer than 200 full time professional Mentalists world wide and how, the day after David Blaine's second special everyone that could spell the word claimed to be one. :x
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ProfWag » 20 May 2010, 22:20

Craig Browning wrote:
ProfWag wrote:I tend to believe that if someone claims to have paranormal powers, then explaining the secrets of how they do it to a layman is really the only way to expose that person as a fraud. As a former magician, I'm understanding of not exposing magic tricks and don't believe there is any fraud involved in magic. Playing with someones emotions, money, etc. is a different story all together. Derren, Banacek, etc. have made a good living off of playing the part of a psychic without claiming to actually BE psychic. So, if one is good, they can do mentalism as entertainment without the need to have people convinced that psychic powers are possible. My humble opinion anyway.


No... Brown only claims to use NLP which he don't, amongst other things. They promote using a different set of lies to manipulate the public in which "science" is the "religion" whereas the Psychic thing a century ago, leaned on Spiritualism and even the Occult... either way, a lie is a lie and when a showman claims to be using one thing but isn't and doesn't clarify that point, he/she is just as guilty (if not more so) than the Sylvia Brown types out there (and she's not even a good con-artist).

Craig, I, personally, am unaware of Brown claiming to use NLP, although I admit, I don't really follow mentalists all that much so I am at a disadvantage compared to you. However, after a brief search, I did find this quote in reference to Derren Brown: "He calls NLP 'the Frankenstein grandchild of Ericksonian'." Additional information appears to indicate that Brown does NOT claim to use NLP. According to http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... s-nlp-work , "(3) What does NLP have to do with Derren Brown's feats of "mind control"? Here, at last, we can offer a definitive answer: nothing at all. In his own book, Tricks of the Mind, Brown writes, “I now have a lot of NLPers analysing my TV work in their own terms, as well as people who say that I myself unfairly claim to be using NLP whenever I perform (the truth is I have never mentioned it)." He adds that he does what he does using a mixture of "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship." It appears you are accusing him of a lie or something else because of your emotional attachment. My perception only, but to compare him to Sylvia Browne is as wrong as two boys in bed.
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 20 May 2010, 22:43

first of all Derren always says he does magic and always says he is cheating
and second of all, HE NEVER CLAIMED TO USE NLP, as usual, craig doesnt know what he is talking about but he will spill the lies and beliefs anyway.

this is from Derren Brown Trick of the mind book page 173

¨ i know have a lot of NLPers analysing my TV work in their own terms, as well as people who say that I myself unfairly claim to be using NLP whenever I perform (the truth is I have never mentioned it). To confuse things even further, it has recently made a home for itself as a fashionable conjuring technique of dubious efficacy.¨
¨


there you go Craig, learn your facts

by the way i find it funny that your fear is that mentalism is magic from a kiddie show... dude.. we use a lot of the same things that magicians.. some of it is pure sleight of hand.. i love the snobby conception that mentalists are not magicians.. i find it hilarious. is like a clown saying he is not a circus act.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 20 May 2010, 22:52

i know realized profwag already posted the same thing..

all right.. still
craig doesnt know what he is talking about but he joins the haters wagon since derren is one of those magi that exposes
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby Craig Browning » 21 May 2010, 21:59

Ok... misinformation from the grape vine... according to many Derren either used to use the NLP explanation (or Ericksonian methods) or at least his massive scores of followers get it wrong... he's more directly tied to the idea of NLP, FACS and various modes of suggestive psychology than Kenton Knepper or Luke Jermay :lol:

No... I don't know all of the facts on Derren in that I see him as being another short term trend setter in Magic that won't be as heavy an influence in a decade as something new comes to the forefront and the next batch of youngsters "discover" something "even better". And though I own most of Derren's books, I've yet to take the time to read them. Sadly, I have to deal with research material first so like so much other material, it takes a back burner along side the various biographical bits I'm longing to dive into.

"Cold Reading" is only "known" to the public for two key reasons; RANDI'S BIG MOUTH back in the 70's and how it managed to get the professors of Psych departments in a number of Universities to start bringing it out during their lectures. This includes a brief review of the Forer experiments and of course, JREF approved biased reports. Rarely, if ever, is any comparably researched material ever offered that gives "the other side" equal time. This bias is part of a deliberate agenda and I'm not being a conspiracy theory fanatic on that point, other "reputable" sources have seen the same things (and more) than I've noticed and it all leads (primarily) to the American and UK Atheist Society Agendas for which Randi tends to be the lead Evangelist. :x

So, to coin a phrase, "Brain Washing" via academics is what placed the idea and understanding of "Cold Reading" into the public mind but since the early seeds were planted and the exposure went unchecked when it happened, we now have amateurs tossing the phrase around, about all they really know is the term and not much more... then you have books like TRADECRAFT that are nothing but a list of "facts" and "demographics"... a great reference tool but highly inaccurate.

If "exposure" is ok when you want to educate the public about psychic con artist we can go back and do like some were doing in the 60s & 70s... exposing closely guarded magician's secrets as "proof" to how things were done as well as inventing contrived theories as to how things are done, insinuating that you have proven fraud... in fact you've proven NOTHING other than you're a student of magic doing what magicians are supposed to do.

Sorry, this is one of those cake & eat it to things and I loathe the idea that some want to destroy my art. Not for the sake of "protecting" or "educating" the public but for the sake of cheap PR and ego building.
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ciscop » 21 May 2010, 22:59

whats the other side??
you want psychology professors to also present the theory that there could be those people that actually doesnt use cold reading?..

yeah.. for that there should be at least one guy able to do it
and none has came forward with that ability.. thus we stay with the RATIONAL and scientific explanation.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby ProfWag » 22 May 2010, 00:05

Craig Browning wrote:
Sorry, this is one of those cake & eat it to things and I loathe the idea that some want to destroy my art. Not for the sake of "protecting" or "educating" the public but for the sake of cheap PR and ego building.

I don't think anyone wants to destroy your art unless, of course, your art is fraud on unsuspecting people who would pay big money to hear from the other side that their dead mother is doing okay. There is just a huge, massive, colossal difference between someone who practices magic and/or mentalism and one who takes money from people who think the performer is actually talking to the dead.
Even you, Craig, when stating no one knew about cold reading until Randi "opened his big mouth" are suggesting that it's okay to fraud people and play with people's emotions when it comes to dead loved ones. If you are okay with that and support that con, then you are not a good person in my eyes. Sorry.
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Re: Awesome show Craig Browning doesnt want you to see

Postby Craig Browning » 23 May 2010, 22:57

The facts are quite simple (when it comes to the idea of Cold Reading)... every counselor, therapist, etc. uses it. They know and apply the very same demographic and profiling tactics an educated Reader employs and in many ways, the same courses of manipulation but without boogiemen to blame. Worse, they appeal to one's intellect and logic over "faith" and "superstition".

Counselors, Clergy, etc. all exploit "Hot" or "Warm" Reading elements (an invented associative inference form the late 70s)... why do you think they ask you to sign an information exchange waver when you come to a new clinic? It's exactly like the "Psychic Mafia" antics but with a legal and authoritative veneer.

Just as some scrupulous folks have destroyed the lives of others under the guise of being a Psychic or Medium there have been thousands of lives destroyed via the "legit" system... that includes those trained in "Grief" counseling who rarely consider or allow the patron to the right to gain closure by way of personal spiritual/religious paths. Though it's subtle, certain therapists allow their analytical bias to become part of a treatment scenario which can do far more harm than an actor taking on the tone of Aunt Sarah's spirit saying good by.

The act of selective finger-pointing is one of my biggest pet-peeves when it comes to the "Skeptics" culture; it's quite comparable to how the fundamentalist zealots of religion treat scripture or historic examples; presenting biased thinking that's based on both, rumor and insinuation tied to a limited number of cases vs. individual considerations... judging a book by its cover or contempt prior to genuine investigation.

Yes, there are people who can intuitively sense things about others. I don't say that lightly or because I have developed such an ability, nor am I saying that I have dead people, angels or the fey whispering in my ear. It's 100% natural, anyone can develop similar skills over time and practice, you will see it in detective work, counseling, sales... any industry in which one deals with the public and you must be able to size up someone or something within a few short minutes. This is why you have those cases in which a cop or doctor don't accept the evidence being presented... they KNOW something else is afoot though they can't pin point it initially. Ironically such things are referred to as an "Occult" factor... a "hidden" something or other which Intuition and Instinct can fall into... we really don't understand them.

Channeling/Mediumship is NOT the same thing as what I'm speaking of above though circumstance has conveniently tied the two together (and mostly from the Psychic/Spiritual community itself -- ego seeking to stack on a truck load of "credentials"). I've had dozens of Readings from people who claim to have this ability, including a few that are heralded as being exceptionally good. I can honestly say that of said encounters I've only found two or three that were anywhere near accurate with things and what I would call "sincere". Most of them are the worse Readers on the planet and how they manage to suck people into their world is beyond explanation. :twisted:

I have had two situations that I tie to this sort of scenario; situations in which I felt that someone or something else was influencing me and my thoughts. I'll state up front that it was a strange in "uncomfortable" sensation but the information that I shared with both client groups was 100% on the mark and frankly, I don't know where it came from. I wasn't using cards or anything outside of what I felt, smelled and heard... I can't explain it beyond that in that it defies intellect... it doesn't fit into any of the niches I'm familiar with and I'm not exactly "ignorant" when it comes to this stuff.

CONSUMER PROTECTION is something I support 110%. I do FREE talks that do exactly this and focus on teaching the public what to be aware of and what to do when they start noticing certain patterns with whomever (charlatans wear many different masks). When our efforts step outside that picture and start blasting people's beliefs as a whole, insulting those who have any form of faith in any thing outside science and intellect... this is when the message gets distorted and hurtful. We are imposing our ideology onto others vs. allowing them to make their own decisions. This is where we come back to what Psych Profs should be presenting to their students...

Sure, let them know about the Forer experiments the Barnum effect, etc. but show them where it is used in daily life in situations OTHER THAN the Psychic world. Be fair and more "complete" when it comes to presenting this package of facts, including the fact that most of the "science" tied to Profiling methods, counseling, modeling, etc. COMES DIRECTLY FROM the practice of psychics, gypsies, etc. Early studied and well into the mid-20th century (*if not to date) have always looked at symbolism, cultural influence, age factors, etc. which Psychics have known and understood for generations... at least in the case of those properly trained, which brings us to an important point... the fact that modern society doesn't allow room for this type of "training" let alone acknowledgment to the fact that certain "mystical rites of passage" were observed for some very logical reasons.

As I've said before, I believe that most of what we call "Psychic" hosts some very mundane explanations that are spot on to what skeptics promote and the "Masters" of yesteryear mysticism knew; terms and perspective have however, become blurred. Much of this blurring has happened for two primary reasons; the layman that hosts the fantasy of being "special" and thus, falls into the delusion of being "Psychic" and too, the loss of the more formal modes of traditional development and education (the Mystery Schools of the past) that lends to such abilities a more honest sense of perspective as well as application... interestingly enough, it's quite close to what skeptics believe but are too blind to see at times... which is one of the reasons I call myself a PSYCHIC... it allows me to teach people on both sides of the invisible fence. ;)
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