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Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Discussions about Psychics and Psychic Phenomena, Extra Sensory Perception, Telepathy, Psi, Clairvoyancy, 6th Sense, Psychokinesis, etc.

Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 28 Mar 2010, 05:28

Over the years I've heard and read many times from Skeptics that, "there isn't a single case in all of recorded human history where a Psychic's Information has led to the discovery of a body or an arrest in a murder". Really now?

Etta Smith Case:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/crim ... ics/8.html

"In 1980, Etta Smith, a shipping clerk in Los Angeles, heard an announcement on the radio about a house-to-house search for Melanie Uribe, a missing woman from her neighborhood, as documented in A&E's film and Larsen's Psychic Sleuths. Smith had an impression that the woman was not inside a building but outside in a certain area, and though she'd never before had such an overwhelming sense of something, it seemed so vivid that she reported it to the police. "It was like someone was talking to me," she said. She felt that the nurse had been hit in the head and dumped in a canyon, which she showed to a detective on a map. She said there was a dirt path going to her. When he seemed not to take her seriously, she decided to go have a look on her own.

As Etta drove through the target area in Lopez Canyon, she had a feeling of "urgency." Spotting some tire tracks in the dirt, she felt them and sensed the trauma that had taken place there. "It was like a thermometer going up." She got back into her car and drove, but her daughter told her to stop because she'd seen something. What she had spotted were a pair of white nurse's shoes.

Smith knew who was there. She drove away and spotted a policeman. She waved him to a stop and told him about the body. He told her to go home. She did, but then two detectives came to bring her in for questioning. She agreed to take a lie detector test, and the police later said that she'd been judged "deceptive," so she was treated as a suspect, strip-searched, and put into a cell for three days. They planted an undercover cop in the cell with her to try to find out why she had come forward and whether her information had come from neighborhood gossip, as suspected. The cop reported that her motive was money.

Then three men confessed and Etta was released. She filed a wrongful arrest suit, asking $750,000 in damages. The jury awarded her $24,000.

She says she never had another such vision, or if she did, she was smart to not report it."


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 23,00.html

"For Etta Louise Smith, the nightmare began shortly before Christmas 1980, when she claims to have had a vision of something white, covered by brush. A Lockheed aerospace worker in Burbank, Calif., Smith does not consider herself a psychic. Yet after she heard radio reports about Nurse Melanie Uribe, 31, who had vanished on her way to work, Smith was convinced she knew where the body could be found. She took her information to the police, who put her off.

Smith then organized a search with two of her young children and a 20-year- old niece. In remote Lopez Canyon, 18 miles north of Los Angeles, her daughter spotted a white heap that turned out to be Uribe -- robbed, raped and beaten to death. Smith told police of her discovery and was arrested for the murder.

While she was held in jail for four days, the killers -- three men with prior arrest records -- turned up. Smith, 39, filed a suit for false arrest. Last week Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Joel Rudof ruled that despite Smith's detailed account of the murder of a woman she never knew or saw, police did not have probable cause to lock her up."


She and the Detective were interviewed on Larry King Live in 2004:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.00.html

"SMITH: Right. On Wednesday, while I was at work, I was listening to the news off and on during the day. And around 3:00, I heard the police say that they were doing a house to house search for her after locating her vehicle. And as soon as that thought registered, instantly my mind said, she's not in a house. As soon as that thought passed, it was as if I saw a movie. I could visually see where she was. I didn't know the name of the street, but I knew how to get there. And I couldn't shake this. I couldn't it to leave me.

GRACE: When I you say you saw, what did you see?

SMITH: I saw a canyon road. I saw where the road curved. I saw a dirt path going to a white object, and a hill behind it very, very clearly.

GRACE: An so officer, Detective Ryan, what did you do when this woman, you've never seen her before, comes up with this vision?

RYAN: I invited Etta to step into the squad room, where we have large wall maps of the area of our division and asked her to indicate as best she could the area she felt this canyon was in and the roads that led to it. And as she did so, I took several photographs depicting both her and her pointing to the location in case it did turn out that she was possibly involved.

GRACE: So you were cynical, weren't you?

RYAN: Yes, I was.

GRACE: When you come back, we are going to hear the rest of the story. At this juncture, a 31-year-old nurse, Melanie Uribe, never missed work, as reliable as a Timex wrist watch, goes missing. All that is found is her burned out car, and suddenly, a psychic comes on the scene. Stay with us.

So Detective Ryan, we left off where she was pointing on a map where she thought, after seeing a vision of a canyon, this missing nurse was. What did you do then?

RYAN: The area she was indicating is a very remote sector of the San Fernando Valley, Lopez Canyon. I then instructed her to be back at the station the following morning at 7:00 a.m., and we would have a helicopter from air support divisino there to take there up into this area and search with her help and assistance.

GRACE: The following morning, did she show up?

RYAN: No, she didn't.

GRACE: What happened, Etta? Why were you a no show?

SMITH: Well, as I was leaving the police station, Mr. Ryan had told me they had not checked that area yet, and I told him I had a feeling I would. Something inside of me said they might not check in time. I didn't know if the victim was dead or alive. I just felt so strongly she was there, that if somebody needed to get to her, they needed to get to her right away, and I couldn't let it rest because it wouldn't leave me alone. I kept seeing it over and over and over again. So I proceeded to go to the canyon.

GRACE: So you get in your car, and drive to this remote area, all on your own.

SMITH: Right, with some family members.

GRACE: You know, Etta, this is such an incredible story to me. You get in your car. You drive out to this remote canyon, and tell us what happened.

SMITH: Well, in driving up the canyon, I had instructed everybody with me to please be on the alert for anything white showing through shrubbery. We cruised the canyon very slowly, got to the top, didn't see anything but I could feel trauma.

And at the top when all of us got back in the vehicle, I said we may not have seen anything, but I feel her. I very much feel her. She's in this canyon, and I said we're going back down the canyon. If we don't find anything, we're leaving here, because I feel it.

GRACE: So you go back down the canyon and?

SMITH: Got halfway down, I noticed tire marks in an embankment on the left side of the road. I also noticed tire marks in dirt on the right side of the road. Instinctively, something told me to stop. I got out of my van. I looked to see if someone possibly could have turned around in the middle of this narrow canyon road, and I put my fingers into the impressions in the dirt, and as soon as they touched the dirt, it was almost electrifying, I could just feel all kinds of trauma.

In leaving that side, I went to the other side of the road laid my fingers in the impressions and the same thing happened. And I knew, I knew this was the vehicle. I knew that these tire impressions were involved with this victim.

GRACE: So what, in the end, Etta, did you find?

SMITH: We ended up finding the victim exactly as I had said, off on the right-hand side of the road with a dirt path leading to her, white showing through shrubbery with a hill behind her.

GRACE: Detective Ryan, this woman, Etta Smith, a psychic, found a dead body before the police could, and in return, they arrest her, detective. How was the case finally solved?

RYAN: Well, it was very complicated. That touches on the perimeter of the story. Basically, because she had found it, and nobody else was able to or come up with any clues, naturally, all involved in the investigation had felt that she had to know the perpetrators and, or, band of participant in order to go to that location so specifically.

I believe that it was not luck. I believe that she had a feeling for the location. There hadn't been anything in the newspapers indicating the clues that we had or the suspects we might be looking for. And basically the case was going absolutely nowhere at that point. So her finding the body just really tended to point fingers...

GRACE: At that point, it did make her a legitimate suspect, but in the end, as it turns out, three guys had been overheard bragging that they had kidnapped and tortured and killed a nurse. And they were turned in, and confessed, and were found guilty and the end of the story, I guess, Etta is something you didn't predict. You sued the police department and won for false arrest.

SMITH: Right. It took six years to do, but I felt forced to do it. I had to clear my name. I did not want any cloud of suspicion hanging over me, plus I had a high level clearance with the Department of Defense, and I needed my day in court."


What do the Skeptics have to say regarding this case?

The only skeptical information I've come across regarding this case is the conspiratorial accusation that Etta Smith must have had an unknown informant who must have overheard the three suspects boasting about the murder and the location of the body in town, and told Etta about it.

However, there are several problems with this:

One, while all sources mention that the three suspects did indeed boast of the murder in town to some people they knew (Etta never knew and never met the suspects, even according to them), which led to their downfall, none of the sources state or even suggest that they revealed the location of the body to anyone, only that they boasted about the murder itself. You'd think that those who turned them in for boasting about the murder would have also mentioned to the police that they revealed the location of the body to them, even if just to help clear Etta, who was jailed at the time on suspicion.

Two, there is ZERO actual evidence that there was such an informant at all who secretly supplied information to Etta, it's all purely conspiratorial speculation on the skeptics' part. You'd think the theoretical informant would have come forward after all this time to say, "I overheard the information from the suspects! I supplied it to Etta Smith!" Especially since she and the lead Detective have been on TV Programs like Larry King and Sightings to talk about what happened. Perfect opportunity for the theoretical informant to step forward and take the limelight. But no such luck.

Detective Lee Ryan, the lead Detective on the case, who witnessed it all go down, believes she's for real, for what it's worth.

The Jackie Poole Case:

(Thanks to Michael Prescott for pointing this case out to me)

"Murderer Anthony Ruark was fingered from beyond the grave by the avenging spirit of his victim Jackie Poole. Jackie's ghost gave stunned police the name of her killer in a macabre late-night interview conducted through a clairvoyant. Hardened sceptical detectives were so convinced by medium Christine Holohan that they arrested Ruark only to release him for lack of proof. But on Friday, 18 years on, evil Ruark, 40, was jailed for life at the Old Bailey after the world of forensic science finally caught up with her deadly accurate psychic evidence. The clincher was fragments of skin found under barmaid Jackie's nails matching Ruark's DNA profile. "

"P.C. Tony Batters and Detective Constable Andy Smith interviewed Christine Holohan who was claiming to have been contacted by the spirit of the murdered woman, Jacqueline Poole. After going into a trance both officers were surprised at the detailed information Holohan provided. She not only described the murder scene but seemed to know a great deal of personal information about the victim. For example she mentioned her divorce, that she was suffering from depression and that she had just been given a prescription by her doctor. She also knew her maiden name (Hunt). But that’s not all. She gave a detailed description of the killer and with ‘automatic writing’ wrote down the name “Pokie” which we now know to be the killer’s nickname. In relation to the missing jewellery she wrote down “garden”. Batters states that out of around 130 points made by Holohan more than 120 have now been shown to be correct. The two officers found this quite remarkable but what apparently clinched it for them was an impromptu psychometric reading from Holohan to D.C. Andy Smith in which she told him quite personal information that she could not possibly have known prior to the meeting."

“…but the fact is that, without the help of the medium's statements, the police would not have retrieved the pullover or interviewed and taken statements from everyone with whom Ruark came into contact with that evening. Nor, according to Tony Batters, would they have checked and verified all Ruark's movements during previous fortnight.”

He then elaborates further;

“The pullover became vital as it was his only garment retained for forensics, and it showed numerous exchanges of blood and saliva from Jacqui Poole to him. This proved an act of violence, as opposed to the intimacy which he claimed in his defence at Court.”


http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/pghost27.htm

http://www.tonyyouens.com/ruislip_murder.htm

http://www.laois-nationalist.ie/news/st ... cweykfmhoj

Psychic John Catchings Case:

He told the detective that the man's body is located very close by (within a mile of the victim's home) near a run down house (and described all the junk stuff in the yard) behind the house in a river stream, trapped under debris, and that one of his shoes is sticking out of the debris with his ankle exposed, and that's how he will find him. He told the detective he must go to the site with two additional police officers, and he will find the body. The detective instead went alone, and found nothing. Then he went again, with two other police officers, and found the body exactly as he described it, behind the same old house as he described it.

Video testimony of the detective ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOZKdFttTTM

Other Case (Needs Identification):

There was another case mentioned on the old TV Series "Sightings" (I can't find an online video of it unfortunately) where a Psychic told a Detective that the missing little girl's body was on an old local farm, right next to a big tree, and that there were chickens clucking all around her body. The detective in the interview said he followed her clues, found an old local farm, saw a big tree, and found the little girl just a few feet from the big tree, with chickens clucking all around her body. The detective followed the Psychic's clues right to the little girl's body. It had the detective interviewed and everything regarding what happened. He was quite clear about what happened, and that it was the Psychic's clues that led him to her body.

Teresita Basa Case:

http://ghosts-hauntings.suite101.com/ar ... her_killer

"On February 21, 1977 Chicago police officers found the body of Philippine born Teresita Basa lying on the floor of her apartment, stabbed to death and partially burned. She was a popular respiratory therapist at Edgewater Hospital. The initial suspect was her boyfriend, but after interviewing him, police realized he wasn’t her killer. Solving the case was dead-ended until Basa’s spirit named her killer.

Basa’s Ghost Contacts Mrs. Chua:

Four months after the crime, Chua, who also worked at the hospital, went into an altered state of consciousness, ASC, and spoke in Tagalong, a dialect of her native Philippine language. The voice said she was Basa and that co-worker Allan Showery murdered her because he stole her jewelry.

When Chua came out of her ASC, she remembered nothing. Her husband, Dr. Jose Chua, was baffled and frightened by the incident. During the next communication, Basa said that Showery had her jewelry and gave her pearl cocktail ring to his common-law wife. After the third incident, Jose contacted the police.

Police Investigation of Basa’s Murder:

The detectives handling the case, Joseph Stachula and Lee Epplen, were skeptical but wanted to follow up on all leads. The autopsy revealed Basa was a virgin. They asked Chua if Basa had been raped to test her. The answer was "no."

The Chuas told the men about Showery and the stolen jewelry. They searched Showery’s apartment and found Basa’s jewelry. When Showery was arrested and told about the evidence, he signed confessions admitting to murdering Basa and stealing her jewelry. The case was officially closed in August 1977."
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 28 Mar 2010, 23:07

Lots of stuff here. I took a look at the Etta Smith case.

Time magazine has a similar description of the events:
From http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,963923,00.html

People magazine (hmmm not a great source is it?) did publish the following:
From http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20096351,00.html
Smith, who claims no psychic powers (though she describes herself as "a very sensitive person"), replies that she had no reason to concoct a story. Conmay suggests that she did, and that it may have involved profit, not prophecy. "[Smith] made some comments to an undercover policewoman [who shared her cell] that she was going to make a lot of money from a book and a movie," he says.


Smith denies it, though an agent she has hired confirms that she has received several offers from would-be producers since she sued the police for wrongful arrest. She asked for $750,000 in damages, and was awarded $26,184 last spring. "For a civic-minded person," says Smith's lawyer, Jim Blatt, alluding to the humiliation of her four days in jail, "it was the ultimate nightmare."


Etta Smith makes it abundantly clear that she is not a psychic. There are a number of times I saw that statement. But then we have conflicting statements such as this from CNN on the Larry King Live show.

From http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/29/lkl.00.html
GRACE: I want you to meet detective Lee Ryan, and psychic Etta Smith. First of all, detective Ryan, when did you first become involved in the case, and this is an incredible case, in my mind.

LEE RYAN, LAPD: Etta Smith approached the detective desk of the Valley Office of LAPD, and indicated that she had some information she felt that she just had to share with us regarding a case that we've been working on.

GRACE: When she approached you, had she ever had any history of psychic visions? Had she ever worked on any other cases before?

RYAN: No, she stated that she felt in the past that she might have seen or heard things, that might have been of a psychic nature, but never of a nature where she felt she could assist in solving a very prominent homicide we were investigating.

GRACE: Well, Detective Ryan, a lot of police would have probably tried to arrest her right there on the spot. I mean, a woman comes into your office, you've got a missing nurse, all that's left is a burned out car, nobody knows where she is. She's been missing for some time. A lot of people, a lot of cops would have arrested Etta right then.

RYAN: Etta had credentials from her employer. She had top security clearances. She lived in the community. She was obviously a professional businesswoman, and she...

GRACE: Well, thank god you did not arrest her on the spot.

Let's go to the lady in question, Etta Smith. So how did you become attracted to this case?

ETTA SMITH, PSYCHIC: I had heard the news earlier in the week, Monday or Tuesday, that this nurse was missing.

GRACE: Melanie Uribe?

SMITH: Right. On Wednesday, while I was at work, I was listening to the news off and on during the day. And around 3:00, I heard the police say that they were doing a house to house search for her after locating her vehicle. And as soon as that thought registered, instantly my mind said, she's not in a house. As soon as that thought passed, it was as if I saw a movie. I could visually see where she was. I didn't know the name of the street, but I knew how to get there. And I couldn't shake this. I couldn't it to leave me.

GRACE: When I you say you saw, what did you see?

SMITH: I saw a canyon road. I saw where the road curved. I saw a dirt path going to a white object, and a hill behind it very, very clearly.

GRACE: An so officer, Detective Ryan, what did you do when this woman, you've never seen her before, comes up with this vision?

RYAN: I invited Etta to step into the squad room, where we have large wall maps of the area of our division and asked her to indicate as best she could the area she felt this canyon was in and the roads that led to it. And as she did so, I took several photographs depicting both her and her pointing to the location in case it did turn out that she was possibly involved.

GRACE: So you were cynical, weren't you?

RYAN: Yes, I was.

GRACE: When you come back, we are going to hear the rest of the story. At this juncture, a 31-year-old nurse, Melanie Uribe, never missed work, as reliable as a Timex wrist watch, goes missing. All that is found is her burned out car, and suddenly, a psychic comes on the scene. Stay with us.


The interview continues.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 28 Mar 2010, 23:21

I didn't realize that the second and third parts were also Etta Smith. I saw that the end of the post was other cases. I should have read everything at once - oh brother.

It seems that Etta Smith was a one time event. Was this just a coincidence?

I was not able to find out if she made money on this, but she did make it to Larry King in 2004 and the event was in 1980. Was she able to make a book deal or a movie deal as she told the undercover cop in jail?
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 29 Mar 2010, 01:06

Nostradamus wrote:Etta Smith makes it abundantly clear that she is not a psychic. There are a number of times I saw that statement. But then we have conflicting statements such as this from CNN on the Larry King Live show.

The context is that she didn't consider herself a Psychic in the traditional sense of someone who self identifies themselves as such and functions in society as a Psychic, giving readings to people, having a reputation as such, etc. She had that one powerful vision that placed her in that role though.

She mentions on Larry King about having Psychic type experiences growing up, true, but it wasn't until the 1980 case that she had that Psychic vision which led to the body. She had visions and psychic type experiences, but did not identify herself as a "Psychic", and still does not, apparently. Many people have Psychic type experiences, but do not self identify as a "Psychic". That seems to be her context.

Nostradamus wrote:I didn't realize that the second and third parts were also Etta Smith. I saw that the end of the post was other cases. I should have read everything at once - oh brother.

It seems that Etta Smith was a one time event. Was this just a coincidence?

Coincidence isn't something that can be proven or disproven in such a case. The fact of the matter is, she claimed a psychic vision, accurately saw the scene surrounding the body, accurately saw where the body was located, accurately pinpointed the location of the body to the Detectives. Then she went to the location with relatives and they found the body in the right area, in the correct surroundings. She even stopped to feel the murderers' tire tracks on the ground before finding the body and realized she was on the right track.

Was all of that an amazing lottery winning level coincidence or an accurate psychic vision? Proponents will point to the overall data and claim accurate psychic vision, Debunkers will throw their hands up and say "Amazing Coincidence!"

But the fact of the matter is, Debunkers claim that there isn't a single documented case where a Psychic nor Psychic Information leads to the discovery of a body, and the Etta Smith case proves that wrong.

Nostradamus wrote:I was not able to find out if she made money on this, but she did make it to Larry King in 2004 and the event was in 1980. Was she able to make a book deal or a movie deal as she told the undercover cop in jail?

From one source I read, the $24,000 she actually received mainly covered the legal fees and such, and it was FAR less than the $700,000 she was originally seeking in damages (the jurors did not award it because they were skeptical of the psychic claim and skeptical of the degree of emotional distress she actually received from the arrest), but she won the case nevertheless, and was judged to be in the right, and the police department in the wrong. She never made a book deal or a movie deal, no.

As for the undercover cop, all I read was that he claimed that her motive "was money". However, we do not know the context or transcript of the conversation he had with her. It could have gone down as something like, "So, you solved a murder case with psychic powers, you gonna make some money off this, get a book deal, get a movie deal, now that you've solved this case?" To which, as pretty much anyone would, reply, "Hells yeah!" You solve a murder case with Psychic ability, and your an ordinary middle class housewife, that sounds pretty sweet, why the hell not?

Interviews on Sightings and Unsolved Mysteries and Larry King seems to be the only recognition she got beyond newspapers and internet articles.

If, as the Skeptics claim (without any actual evidence), that she had an unknown informant supply her the information (even though all sources never mention the three killers ever gossiping about the body's location, merely that they had killed her, and she didn't know any of the killers), her appearances on those TV Programs and her Trial would have been perfect opportunities for such a person to step forward and out Etta and take the limelight. Especially after all these years. But, nope.

Regardless, Etta Smith was only one case I listed. The Jackie Poole case, the John Catchings case, and the Teresita Basa case are also very intriguing. (And one additional case I listed that I recall the details on but can't find further info on.)
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 29 Mar 2010, 06:25

I realized that there were other cases, but after the fact.

Her words were that she was not psychic, but others have labeled her as psychic. Remember that the Larry King show is 14 years after the fact. So what she says there could be history rewritten to match the flavor of the show.

Two books were written about this event. I was not able to find out if she was paid anything for a book deal.

The question that the police wanted to know is whether or not she heard a tip before reporting the case. The actual killers were caught because they blabbed. What they said was not reported, but they did talk. So could she have heard something? No idea.

All of these events took place in a short period of time: the disappearance, the Smith tip, the body found, the killers caught. I don't have all the dates, but it seems like it was just a week.

Regardless, this was an interesting case to read about.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 29 Mar 2010, 07:44

Nostradamus wrote:Two books were written about this event.

Really? What are the titles? I must have missed reading mention of them.

I wonder what additional information on the case they might contain. They would most probably have a full timeline of events listed within them.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 29 Mar 2010, 10:12

The off reference to some authors comments seems to be mention of the case in 2 or more books.

Psychic Murder Hunters by Andrew Boot
Psychic Sleuths by Joe Nickell

The murder was in 1980
She sued in 1987
The People magazine article was 1987
The Time article was 1987
The Larry King appearance was in 2004

In looking for more information on the case I bumped into this comment from another forum:
Actually I just was looking around in google earth for the locations, and if you use what is said in the articles:
She lives in Pacoima, CA
She works at Lockheed near Burbank (I assume they mean Lockheed Martin Info & Tech at 505. W. Woodbury Rd, Altadena, CA) Due to no other lockheed properties near (other than banks). (its basically burbank)

That means that everyday for work she drives both ways down I-210 to get from home to work. I-210 is also the main road that goes through Lakeview Terrace, the area that she found the body. If it was found 400 feet from I-210 I could see her glimpsing the body on her way to work that day, not knowing what it was, and thinking about it later.
Try putting those locations in google earth. Do a Lakeview Terrace, Burbank, CA to get some idea of where the "lakeview" area is in the foothills. Its not very large, and 210 goes right over the bottom of the "canyon", which is really just an old riverbed from the looks of it, at the bottom of the valley.

I'm not saying she isn't psychic, just that sometimes people remember things and, if they're intelligent enough, put it together in their head and check it out.

That's from http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-179856.html

Well I did take peak at Google maps and that's the simplest road into the hills from Pacoima.

When Time used the term remote and called it 18 miles north of LA, I'd say the writer should have said it was a mere 1.5 miles from the center of Pacoima to the start of the road, and at 4 miles you were at the end of the road.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby ProfWag » 29 Mar 2010, 21:15

Eteponge wrote:Over the years I've heard and read many times from Skeptics that, "there isn't a single case in all of recorded human history where a Psychic's Information has led to the discovery of a body or an arrest in a murder". Really now?


Yes, really. Every case mentioned appears to have two sides to the story and as Craig has alluded to, there is usually two sides to every story.
In any event, here are just a couple of the sources for my feelings:
It's not like I "Like to say psychics have nevere solved a case," I have evidence to back me up:

"These guys don't solve cases, and the media consistently gets it wrong," says Michael Corn, an investigative producer for Inside Edition who produced a story last May debunking psychic detectives. Moreover, the FBI and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children maintain that to their knowledge, psychic detectives have never helped solve a single missing-person case.
"Zero. They go on TV and I see how things go and what they claim but no, zero," says FBI agent Chris Whitcomb. "They may be remarkable in other ways, but the FBI does not use them." http://web.archive.org/web/200101240011 ... chic.shtml

Another source:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... sinscience
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 29 Mar 2010, 23:16

ProfWag wrote:
Eteponge wrote:Over the years I've heard and read many times from Skeptics that, "there isn't a single case in all of recorded human history where a Psychic's Information has led to the discovery of a body or an arrest in a murder". Really now?


Yes, really. Every case mentioned appears to have two sides to the story and as Craig has alluded to, there is usually two sides to every story.
In any event, here are just a couple of the sources for my feelings:
It's not like I "Like to say psychics have nevere solved a case," I have evidence to back me up:

"These guys don't solve cases, and the media consistently gets it wrong," says Michael Corn, an investigative producer for Inside Edition who produced a story last May debunking psychic detectives. Moreover, the FBI and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children maintain that to their knowledge, psychic detectives have never helped solve a single missing-person case.
"Zero. They go on TV and I see how things go and what they claim but no, zero," says FBI agent Chris Whitcomb. "They may be remarkable in other ways, but the FBI does not use them." http://web.archive.org/web/200101240011 ... chic.shtml

Another source:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... sinscience

Pure Fail. NEITHER of these articles discuss ANY of the SPECIFIC individual cases I linked. Instead, they discuss OTHER cases where psychics have indeed gotten things wrong, as though to say, "There's a lot of counterfeit money out there, here's some examples, therefore ALL money must be counterfeit!"

If you get some articles that actually deal with the SPECIFIC cases I discussed, rather than a blanket statement "It's all BS, here's some cases where they have gotten it wrong, therefore ALL purported cases are automatically wrong!" article that doesn't bother to deal with those SPECIFIC cases, come back when you have something.

I just gave several cases where they did find a body or solve a murder, so you linking me to a blanket statement article that doesn't actually deal with ANY of those SPECIFIC individual cases, and just flails, "Here's some examples of psychic cases gone wrong, therefore, they're all wrong, and there are no authentic cases!" without actually dealing with any of my examples, doesn't cut it.

Also, evidence that any of those FBI guys claiming that ever looked at ANY of the SPECIFIC cases I've mentioned? Sounds like they are just going by high profile cases where thousands of wanna-be psychics spammed tips to police, ala Polly Klass, and therefore conclude there's nothing to it. I don't see evidence that they looked into ANY of the cases I mentioned.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 29 Mar 2010, 23:49

Eteponge the blanket statement may not specifically mention any particular case such as Etta Smith, but it was stated in 2007 more than 27 years after the event.

This is what was stated by ABC science in 2007.
The case unravels further when you consider that both the FBI and the National Center For Missing And Exploited Children state that psychic detectives have never solved a single missing person case in the USA.

Bolding mine.

Do you expect every case to be listed? Just because these cases are not explicitly listed does not make these cases valid.

If I were amazed at anything in this case I'd say that it was that a police officer did not find the body on a road right next to town when the body was in view of the road.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 30 Mar 2010, 00:19

Nostradamus wrote:Eteponge the blanket statement may not specifically mention any particular case such as Etta Smith, but it was stated in 2007 more than 27 years after the event.

This is what was stated by ABC science in 2007.
The case unravels further when you consider that both the FBI and the National Center For Missing And Exploited Children state that psychic detectives have never solved a single missing person case in the USA.

Bolding mine.

Do you expect every case to be listed? Just because these cases are not explicitly listed does not make these cases valid.

If I were amazed at anything in this case I'd say that it was that a police officer did not find the body on a road right next to town when the body was in view of the road.

They claim this, yet in the specific cases I listed, they did solve the case, which is problemic for their position. I'm asking for specific rebuttals on specific cases, not an article that says "It's all BS! FBI says so, Appeal to authority, counter-evidence be damned!" blanket dismissals.

What I'd like to see ...

* What cases they actually looked into, and why they came to their conclusions. (The only ones mentioned are high profile cases like Polly Klass where thousands of wanna-be psychics phoned in false information, which suggests to me they just look at a bunch of high profile cases being flooded with self proclaimed Psychics that didn't pan out, and drew their conclusion from there.)

* Why none of the cases I listed are mentioned or dealt with at all.

As for the Etta Smith case "she was dead on the side of the road in plain visible sight of everyone", if that is true, why would the Detective and others be impressed if it was that simple? I haven't even seen proof that that is even the case.

What you don't seem to get, is I ask for specifics. Not blanket dismissals.

I.E. If the FBI says that there is not a single documented case of a Psychic solving a case, what my mind wonders is ...

* What specific cases have they looked into to reach this conclusion, and why? Full report please, so that I may fact check. Did they just read debunker reports on the matter, and not bother to fact check their arguments versus the data? I'd like to know the full context of it all.

* That I can easily bring up cases where the psychic did find a body or solve a case, did the FBI look into these? If not, they still stand, regardless, because they were not taken into account. If they were, and were dismissed with the rest, why? Full report please, I'd like to examine and critique.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby ProfWag » 30 Mar 2010, 03:20

Eteponge wrote:They claim this, yet in the specific cases I listed, they did solve the case, which is problemic for their...


Who makes the claim that they did solve the case? Etta Smith herself. What you are asking for is for the FBI to come out and say "No, a psychic didn't solve this case." Over the span of the past 40 years, there have been tens of thousands of murder cases where psychics "say" they solved the case. You want the FBI or the Center for Missing Children to be specific in every case? Very unreasonable Eteponge. Fail.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Eteponge » 30 Mar 2010, 03:40

ProfWag wrote:
Eteponge wrote:They claim this, yet in the specific cases I listed, they did solve the case, which is problemic for their...


Who makes the claim that they did solve the case? Etta Smith herself.

You conveniently left out mention of the lead Detective, who also made the claim.

Two of the other cases I mentioned also had Detectives on the case vouch that the Psychic's Information was significant to the case.

ProfWag wrote:What you are asking for is for the FBI to come out and say "No, a psychic didn't solve this case." Over the span of the past 40 years, there have been tens of thousands of murder cases where psychics "say" they solved the case. You want the FBI or the Center for Missing Children to be specific in every case? Very unreasonable Eteponge. Fail.

No, only in the cases where it was claimed they solved the case, and there was both good evidence that this was the case, and detective testimony to that effect. Which of course, there are in the cases I mentioned.

Yes, many Psychics claim they solved cases, yet when you double check, they may have had some significant verifiable hits on the case, but didn't lead to the discovery of the body or the arrest of a suspect. They were found to be right on this and that AFTER THE FACT. This is very common, and these are not considered "psychic solving the case".

But, in the cases I provided, Psychic Information DID play a significant role in either finding the body, or making an arrest.

That's a key difference. If the FBI didn't take those cases into consideration, and just threw up their hands after finding cases after case of the "after the fact" type, or the many floods of "psychic tips" on cases that lead nowhere, and thus declare there's nothing to it, then those cases I mention still stand.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 30 Mar 2010, 03:47

Etepongs you said
As for the Etta Smith case "she was dead on the side of the road in plain visible sight of everyone", if that is true, why would the Detective and others be impressed if it was that simple? I haven't even seen proof that that is even the case.


As I've already pointed out there are quite a few discrepancies in the accounts. This is no exception.

SMITH: We ended up finding the victim exactly as I had said, off on the right-hand side of the road with a dirt path leading to her, white showing through shrubbery with a hill behind her.


She got back into her car and drove, but her daughter told her to stop because she'd seen something. What she had spotted were a pair of white nurse's shoes.


Smith then organized a search with two of her young children and a 20-year- old niece. In remote Lopez Canyon, 18 miles north of Los Angeles, her daughter spotted a white heap that turned out to be Uribe


Suddenly her eight-year-old daughter, Tina, shouted, "Stop!" In the fading light she had seen something white in the brush. It was a corpse, nude but for white nurse's shoes, face-down over a low retaining wall.


In 2 stories the daughter sees the body from the car which was in motion when the body was spotted. In another version it is the shoes that are spotted, but the claim is that the shoes were on the feet of a nude corpse. The CNN interview has the body potentially out of sight of the road.

I would say that the 'proof' is that 3 out of 4 accounts agree that the body was visible from the road. The differing account was given 14 years after the event. The other 3 accounts were given 7 years after the event.
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Re: Cases where Psychic's information finds body or makes arrest

Postby Nostradamus » 30 Mar 2010, 03:58

But, in the cases I provided, Psychic Information DID play a significant role in either finding the body, or making an arrest.


The more I look at the Etta Smith case the more I am skeptical of any evidence for psychic information. The body was in view of the road. The road was the closest out of town road. It was not even 2 miles to the start of an unpopulated road. There are lots of discrepancies in the story. When I see so many discrepancies I begin to think that due to factors such as the intervening years memories get changed. People forget and fill in events. It's no surprise that the older account (14 years) given to CNN is different, and has more embellishments than the earlier versions (7 years after the fact).
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