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A Challenge from Believers

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 13 Jan 2010, 06:28

ProfWag wrote:Much of what you say Tiger is why I am a skeptic. It just doesn't make sense to me that so many people make claims, yet no one can (or wants) to prove it?


I think it is interesting what Tiger wrote about a "world where psychics exist". Tiger gives scenarios about what psychics could do to benefit humanity. However I take a different view. If there psychics did exist, their abilities would be due to some unknown physical phenomena or law of nature. Normal science would analyse and reap the benefits of all elements of this newly discovered technology. In my mind, we would more likely see a future alternative world where psychics exts, as having wireless Ipods that beam into your head, bus timetables that adjust upon review, endless lost key finding services in the yellow pages, a weatherman who gets tomorrows weather right.....all these things would be as mundane as when radio was first introduced.

I'm a skeptic from the Skeptic Society who snuck into this forum but I would enjoy a hypothetical thread on what a future world may look like if psychics existsed, or God was really controlling us or an international financial conspiracy was running the world. I loved reading science fiction in the 70's and some of the short stories delved into these concepts. I think it is fine for humans to consider fantasy scenarios, as it stimulates our brains, as long as we don't start believing them.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Jan 2010, 06:50

ProfWag wrote:Much of what you say Tiger is why I am a skeptic. It just doesn't make sense to me that so many people make claims, yet no one can (or wants) to prove it?

Tiger, I think you hit the nail on the head with this quote:
tiger wrote:Those that try to fake paranormal ability need to make people distrust any challenges on offer, otherwise that would show that they are fakes and not the challenges. This would be true no matter who was running the challenge.


Now let's use some information that can be taken directly from this forum as an example as to claims of paranormal ability and the human reaction to such claims. HF2 has made claims of abilities, many times right here for our personal evaluation. He has basically stuck his neck out and done exactly what ProfWag suggests. What is the outcome of those predictions? Alot of name calling, some very unpleasant armchair psych evaluations and plenty of ridicule. Who would want to have to deal with this sort of treatment in the process?
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby tiger » 13 Jan 2010, 07:39

NinjaPuppy wrote:<snip> I'm cheap, so I don't usually pay for what I'm not sure about when the quality of something is unknown. <snip>


Forget everything else. This is very wise. Keep a very broad definition of the word pay. Include time and effort in this as well. Everything else follows from this.

Also the MDC the applicant designs the test. JREF then says if the test will show a paranormal ability. There is too much crap written about the challenge. Stuff that a basic check of this page http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html and the four links it gives will show is wrong. For example below is rule 1 which shows what I just said. It is not up to JREF to design the test.

1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby tiger » 13 Jan 2010, 08:24

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Much of what you say Tiger is why I am a skeptic. It just doesn't make sense to me that so many people make claims, yet no one can (or wants) to prove it?

Tiger, I think you hit the nail on the head with this quote:
tiger wrote:Those that try to fake paranormal ability need to make people distrust any challenges on offer, otherwise that would show that they are fakes and not the challenges. This would be true no matter who was running the challenge.


Now let's use some information that can be taken directly from this forum as an example as to claims of paranormal ability and the human reaction to such claims. HF2 has made claims of abilities, many times right here for our personal evaluation. He has basically stuck his neck out and done exactly what ProfWag suggests. What is the outcome of those predictions? Alot of name calling, some very unpleasant armchair psych evaluations and plenty of ridicule. Who would want to have to deal with this sort of treatment in the process?


I did a few searches and came up with this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=549&start=0. He did make a prediction that never came true. Yes HF2 does make claims of abilities, but the evidence fails to show any ability so I do not think that we should take him very seriously.

As for name calling and ridicule , yes I found HF2 practicing that, but is that unexpected?
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Jan 2010, 10:37

tiger wrote:I did a few searches and came up with this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=549&start=0. He did make a prediction that never came true. Yes HF2 does make claims of abilities, but the evidence fails to show any ability so I do not think that we should take him very seriously.

As for name calling and ridicule , yes I found HF2 practicing that, but is that unexpected?

HF2 is known for making predictions. I wasn't questioning his success or failure rate at all, just the observation of the reaction of others when he claimed that he had abilities. HF2 has a history with predictions on internet forums from what I have read here. None of which were commented on by others in a pleasant manner either. It's a pretty typical response when someone makes a prediction and/or claims to be able to have any sort of paranormal abilities.

Perhaps he was not the best example but he is the only example that I can think of in this specific instance.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby highflyertoo » 13 Jan 2010, 10:44

ProfWag wrote:
highflyertoo wrote:Are you a believer in Naturalism?

Because if so then you are like James Randi and like mainstream Science believers who 100% assert ''their belief'' that every ''action'' can be explained by modern science pertaining to Natural Causation.

Modern Science=Naturalism....... Naturalism is Anti-Supernatural

I am a believer in the truth. If someone can read minds, fortell the future, or speak with the dead (to name a few), then we should know about it.


Maybe it is time for me to change my approach in letting you peoples know about the supernatural.

Firstly it's the supernatural who controls the natural world we live in.

The Supernatural is controlled by God (Hebrew God) and then there's the evil lesser god called Satan. Now Satan has been granted a short time to ''TEST/TEMPT'' mankind to make them God Haters.Now the Devil's best tool is CONFUSSION, and he let's known some supernatural events to certain individuals throughout history to form a foundation of perpetual lies which enables mankind to be at loggerheads against each other and against God. The Devil uses all resources available to keep mankind spiritually blinded.

For example: one man bare's witness to a supernatural event, Yet other men question if the event ever happened, and so the doubt is established. When one man sees and the other man doesn't, then there is envy. Unbelievers keeps saying the Supernatural does not exist because he has NOT SEEN IT.

Then the UNBELIEVERS put forth the killer blow question to the ''witness'' and so PROVE IT, if the supernatural exists then prove it,prove it prove it. Then the Unbelievers ( who are really those people who never witnessed a supernatural event) go to bed feeling quite victorious and pleased with themselves YET never satisfied, as they continue their burdensome labour of scouring books ,newspapers,television and the internet for a possible supernatural find.

The burden upon the UNBELIEVER is greater than upon the supernatural witness.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 13 Jan 2010, 12:07

tiger wrote: I did a few searches and came up with this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=549&start=0. He did make a prediction that never came true. Yes HF2 does make claims of abilities, but the evidence fails to show any ability so I do not think that we should take him very seriously.

As for name calling and ridicule , yes I found HF2 practicing that, but is that unexpected?


He does more than that. He was locked up in a psych home after a seige in Western Australia. He was banned from JREF and The Skeptic Society for ringing up members at home. ( He rang my 86 year old father and abused him). He also went a bit nutty and copied one posting 18 times and started a poem about how much he "suffered as the anti-messiah". However when he announced on the Skeptic Society that he would obtain his power on 14May2009 he said he based this date on a dream. He actually based it on the opening date of a business notification for a company renting space from Bunbury library as he was "a bit ill" during this period. If you do a search you can see all the various claims he has made starting from 2005 on various sites. His schizophrenia first manifested itself when he started to believe that by dreaming about buildings he caused the buildings to be built. I have documented a complete log for Highflyer's posts and six other similar people for a private purpose. Csicop has detailed some of these on this forum because I asked him to as I wanted to see how his responses changed with time and I needed a volume of communication.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby Mistislav D'ralle » 13 Jan 2010, 12:27

Here is a good example of how Highflyer operates.

highflyertoo wrote: Maybe it is time for me to change my approach in letting you peoples know about the supernatural.


Highflyer makes this statement every two months but continues to do exactly the same thing. In his mind he is allowed to deceive us as this allows him, as the anti-messiah, to "trick his master" the devil, into changing the future and therefore making John's predictions incorrect. John thinks that by making predictions and then having them not come true is evidence that this plan is working.

highflyertoo wrote: The Supernatural is controlled by God (Hebrew God) and then there's the evil lesser god called Satan. Now Satan has been granted a short time to ''TEST/TEMPT'' mankind to make them God Haters.Now the Devil's best tool is CONFUSSION, and he let's known some supernatural events to certain individuals throughout history to form a foundation of perpetual lies which enables mankind to be at loggerheads against each other and against God. The Devil uses all resources available to keep mankind spiritually blinded.


John has not disclosed his real belief here. John believes the messiah is "Emmanuel" and not "Jesus". He can explain this to you as it makes no sense to me. I believe that he thinks he has some connection to "Emmanuel" but I never worked out what it was as John thinks he is the "anti-messiah". It may have something to do with a war memorial statue that he said was going to come alive in Bunbury in early 2009 and fight the anti-christ, on another forum

highflyertoo wrote: For example: one man bare's witness to a supernatural event, Yet other men question if the event ever happened, and so the doubt is established. When one man sees and the other man doesn't, then there is envy. Unbelievers keeps saying the Supernatural does not exist because he has NOT SEEN IT.


This is also interesting as John has never actually seen a supernatural event himself as he readily admits. John will only confirm that he has had dreams that "have predicted the future" but only disclosed them to other "after the event"




The burden upon the UNBELIEVER is greater than upon the supernatural witness.[/quote]
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby tiger » 13 Jan 2010, 12:34

Mistislav D'ralle - Thanks for the history about highflyertoo. I think that post he has just made in this thread says a lot about him. Not much about the topic of this thread though. Yes he is not allowed to post on those forums, though the history on that in JREF is rather complex. See http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=141515 for details. Membership of JREF to view required.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby highflyertoo » 13 Jan 2010, 14:54

tiger wrote:Mistislav D'ralle - Thanks for the history about highflyertoo. I think that post he has just made in this thread says a lot about him. Not much about the topic of this thread though. Yes he is not allowed to post on those forums, though the history on that in JREF is rather complex. See http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=141515 for details. Membership of JREF to view required.


I don't know who this Russian is going by the name of Mistislav D'ralle, yet this Russian who can type English as though it was his ''first language'' seems absolutely OBSESSED with me.

The Russian doesn't even give an accurate account of my posts on other forums which have no revelance here on SCEPCOP'S forum. Maybe the Russian is not Russian after all and is scared stiff to reveal his own identity if he actually has an identity. Identity Crisis?... Surely MD isn't a unhappy bored sookie bub?

So tiger unless you are able to speak to me on level ground then best you keep to known things about me rather than childish poppycock misinformation.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby highflyertoo » 13 Jan 2010, 15:18

ProfWag wrote:I've noticed this whole forum has been kind of slow lately, so I'm just throwing this out there, hoping to get some discussion going.
It seems to me that if someone had paranormal abilities, they would want the world to know. After all, if someone claims to be psychic and then can prove it, then all psychics would benefit as the possibility of that phenomenon will have been proven and more people would then use their services, thus profit greatly. Ditto with mediums, astrologers, and any other "gifted" individual.
Now, this may sound silly, but it's a serious question. With all the "distrust" of the JREF MDC, why don't believers in the paranormal collect their nickles and dimes together and offer their own challenge for someone to develop a protocol and test that would show to the satisfaction of others that there are paranormal abilities really out there?
I think I might know why, but am interested in other's thoughts.
Wag


You say if someone can prove being psychic? it's been proven time and time again to the believer. So in a nutshell Profwag you are an unbeliever who can't handle other people seeing and knowing and experiencing the supernatural.

How about you ProfWag call out to God for personal proof to ease your burden of not knowing.
Randi was no researcher of the paranormal even though he tried half heartedly.... Shows over.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby ProfWag » 13 Jan 2010, 20:14

Thanks to all for your thoughts! I'm interested in the comment about what the world would be like with psychics. I don't think it would be a good one. Imagine your wife asking you if her butt looks big in those pants and I answer "no honey, not at all" when I'm really thinking "elephant ass." Personally, I hope that scientists never find the key to unlocking the power of mind-reading... :-)

As to HF2's comments about God. All I can say is that out of all the predictions you've made that I've seen, I haven't seen one come true yet, even the one where you predicted the odds-on favorite horse to win a race. So, if one isn't accurate with their predictions, why should I believe in any other supernatural suggestions? I can't. Sorry.

As for the name calling, if HF2 was accurate in most of his predictions, would we be calling him names? I would think not and I think we would take him (or anyone else for that matter) quite seriously.
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby NinjaPuppy » 13 Jan 2010, 23:52

ProfWag wrote:As for the name calling, if HF2 was accurate in most of his predictions, would we be calling him names? I would think not and I think we would take him (or anyone else for that matter) quite seriously.

Another excellent question here ProfWag. I don't completely agree with your answer as I'm sure that some internet malcontent would find their way here to express their negative opinion and get a descriptive name or two in there. ;)
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby ProfWag » 14 Jan 2010, 03:03

NinjaPuppy wrote:
ProfWag wrote:As for the name calling, if HF2 was accurate in most of his predictions, would we be calling him names? I would think not and I think we would take him (or anyone else for that matter) quite seriously.

Another excellent question here ProfWag. I don't completely agree with your answer as I'm sure that some internet malcontent would find their way here to express their negative opinion and get a descriptive name or two in there. ;)

Do you mean, like, "that S.O.B. actually talked to George Washington!"? Or, do you mean, like, "although he talked to George Washington, he's still a S.O.B."?
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Re: A Challenge from Believers

Postby NinjaPuppy » 14 Jan 2010, 03:40

ProfWag wrote:Do you mean, like, "that S.O.B. actually talked to George Washington!"? Or, do you mean, like, "although he talked to George Washington, he's still a S.O.B."?

Neither. Perhaps since I have decided to fiddle fart my entire day away, I'll gather a few copy and pastes from this forum as examples.
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