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Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Discussions about the James Randi Educational Foundation and its Million Dollar Challenge.

Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 01 Aug 2009, 09:46

I know callahan and koenig will get mad because im going to give you secrets but who cares? those people want to scam you, i dont, here you have proof, decide for yourself.

So lets start with Uri Geller..
Geller said back then that he was a psychic... and since then has been haunted by randi
here is a video of randi debunking him, wanna know how to do a DD? (draw duplication?) or how to Bend a Spoon?


now.. The peek is called the Gypsie Peek and is well used by magicians, if you want to know more about this you should get information from Luke Jermay he teaches the peek in Emotional Intelligence in here: http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1703

now how does he does the spoon bending? is quite simple
there are many magicians teaching metal bending here are a few links:
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=891 Liquid metal by Morgan Strebler
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=16 Psychokinetic Silverware by Gerry and Banachek
http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorde ... hp?ID=4468 Bavli Bending by Guy Bavli
http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorde ... hp?ID=4282 Metal Bending Kuff by Patrick Kuffs

Now...
the thing that is quite funny
is that Uri Geller doesnt says he is a Psychic anymore
now he is a Mystifier (like Criss Angel)
here in this video
Uri Geller was asked that question and he got mad, quite funny


I am not saying there is no psychics
im just saying URI GELLER ISNT a psychic
when he met David Blaine he did a point about guys exposing trickery in magic (why would a psychic be scare about him being exposed?)
Uri Geller: David, what about these bastards - sorry - who try to expose trickery in magic, and who try to say what you do is not real, when you know that what they're saying is not true. Do you feel angry about it?
David Blaine: It's upsetting but I believe that the images I create will last longer than these cheating attempts to thrive and make money out of what I've created.

Here is the link to the meeting between david and uri: http://www.urigeller.com/articles/blain ... e-edge.htm


so.. is it The power of the mind or Sleight of hand?.. you decide
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Ozz » 03 Aug 2009, 16:25

Great post!
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 03 Aug 2009, 16:31

Ozz wrote:Great post!


thanks
i will give every secret in magic
just to get people out of frauds and scam artists
like uri
i dont care
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Scepcop » 03 Aug 2009, 23:54

Well you have to keep in mind that Uri Geller doesn't just bend spoons and move compasses. He also does things that Randi and other magicians can't duplicate, such as the "Geller After Effect" in which he bends a spoon, puts it down and then it CONTINUES bending after he put it down.

This has been well documented in hundreds of newspapers. You can google it.

Randi is wrong about a few things.

- He said on TV once that no magicians believe Geller is for real. That is not true. Many top magicians believe that Geller is unexplainable, including David Ben.

- He said that everything Geller does can be duplicated. But Randi has never duplicated the Geller After Effect, nor has he even tried. He simply ignores it.

- He also said on TV that Uri Geller does tricks that you can find in cereal boxes. He was definitely wrong about that. But he never retracted the statement. When have you ever seen Randi apologize?

How do you explain that an electron microscope found no stress in a key that Uri bent?

"I tested Uri Geller myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key."

Professor Helmut Hoffmann (Department of Electrical Engineering,
Technical University of Vienna, Austria)


Here is an example of the Geller After Effect:

"I have personally witnessed and experienced on two occasions the metal bending abilities of Uri Geller. These experiments were conducted under rigorous laboratory conditions. In these two experiments the thick steel rod I was holding and observing carefully bent, and continued to bend, in my own hand. One rod bent to 90 degrees during a period of approximately six minutes while I was holding it. The other steel rod bent after Uri Geller stroked it and continued bending on a glass table without anyone touching it. The steel rods were provided by myself. I consider the Geller effect to be a phenomena which should be studied seriously by science. "

"A scientist would have to be either massively ignorant or a confirmed bigot to deny the evidence that the human mind can make connection with space, time and matter in ways which have nothing to do with the ordinary senses. Further, he cannot deny that these connections are compatible with current thinking in physics, and may in the future become accepted as a part of an extended science in which the description 'paranormal' no longer applies, and can be replaced by 'normal'."

Dr. Kit Pedler, (Head of the Electron Microscopy department, University
of London:)


And how do you explain this comment by Britain's great magician David Ben?

"I immediately pick up the spoon from the lectern and place it into my pocket so that no one can steal it before I have the opportunity to auction it off. I notice that it is now at a perfect 90-degree angle - a different physical appearance than what I recall seeing when he placed it gently down on the lectern. I secretly shake my head because it is now different and I did not see him do one thing that was suspicious, with speed, without grace or charm. It was flawless. I have no idea what he did. I now have the spoon at my home. It is perfect. I have seen many spoons bent by so called experts. Uri is in a league of his own. The curvature of the bend is beautiful - not forced. I have said to many people that the curvature reminds me of a single line drawn by Matisse. It is a work of art. You can tell that it was created by a master. Quite wonderful. I'm a fan. Now, I would like to add a few further comments. Although I am not an expert in the paranormal, I am an expert in sleight of hand. I would stack up my knowledge and ability in sleight of hand against anyone in the world. I do not believe that Geller used sleight of hand to bend the spoon. (I have seen most of the spoon bending experts created by the magic community and their work is not very elegant when compared with Geller.)"

David Ben Sleight of Hand Master
http://www.theconjuror.com/


You can't deny that these quotes are impressive.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 04 Aug 2009, 01:06

Im sorry Winston
but did y ou watched the videos?
you can CLEARLY see Uri Bending the spoon and then using the suggestion ¨is still bending¨
are you familiar with hypnosis? there´s a thing in hypnosis called suggestion and thats pretty much the geller effect (he isnt hypnotizing, he is just using suggestion)

The Geller effect was studied by Richard Wiseman Ph.D
why should we read the article?. because Richard Wiseman himself was and is a Magician
he knows how people deceive themselves
here is a link to the geller effect explained : http://www.richardwiseman.com/resources/BJP-key.pdf

"I tested Uri Geller myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key."

Not true, if this was on video
there wouldnt be a question wheter Uri Geller is real or not
how is it that when all this unexplainable things happen there´s never video?
The key was touched by Geller, beyond that we only have an spectator of an illusion with a comment
However we do have video of Geller cheating, here is another video

he is puting a small magnet on his thumb to move the compass
i believe it was a bad choice by uri geller.. not very impressive.. it would have been far better choice to use this http://www.wizardpkring.com/ is a magnet ring used by magicians to stop watches or retain coins.

and i dont know about david ben´s comment but i do know that many magicians dont believe Uri Geller is real
a proof of that here http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... 4&forum=15 in the forum you can see magicians discussing uri geller as a MENTALIST (which is a type of magic). they are discussing as uri geller being one of the top 5 mentalists in history. (which i do believe he is).
and here it is discussed in full extension by Guy Bavli (he was part of the nbc mentalism show phenomenon)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... &forum=268
so you can see that Magicians in general know what uri geller is, i am yet to find somebody out there insisting that geller is true now adays

and well..
if you wish to believe he is real is ok
i just dont like that Uri Geller is a con artist, he scammed international companies ¨to use his powers¨ and now he cant escape his past
nowadays is not ok to say you are a psychic, thats why he is a mystifier now.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Scepcop » 04 Aug 2009, 04:01

ciscop,
Yeah I've seen those videos and heard all your points before. I'm not saying that Geller must be real. I'm saying he is unexplained.

His experiments at SRI were on video, and they were unexplained. Randi just guessed at what happened.

See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzKiODWx1gc

Suggestion is not reliable and doesn't always work. It doesn't usually work on me.

As to the magnet, how do you explain the experiments where Geller was in his underwear and scanned for magnets with high tech devices, yet he was still able to move a compass?

There are magicians who believe that Geller is not real and there are those who believe that he is real.

You gotta understand that most people follow the pack and so if their colleagues say Geller is a fake, they will follow suit. They don't want to lose respect from their peers.

Geller did not scam the oil companies. He obviously got them results, and that's why they kept hiring him to find them spots to dig oil in. If he didn't get results, he wouldn't keep getting work from them. Simple common sense.

How do you explain this one?

"As a magician, I believe that the tests we did (with Geller) could not be duplicated in any way by a magician's methods."
Abb Dickson (Professional magician - U.S.A. and President of the International Brotherhood of Magicians 1997-9
Abb Dickson has been named as a new director of the World Alliance of Magicians (WAM). Dickson who is a Past President of the International Brotherhood of Magicians wants WAM to help maintain the secrecy of magic and prevent exposure to the public.
--------------------------------

Drew McAdam
"I will say only this: I have seen Uri do things that, even as a mentalist and amateur conjuror of some 30 years, I cannot explain. I know how mind-magicians obtain the effects they do... I know the illusionist's mechanics of producing so-called psychic effects that look incredibly convincing to the layman. However, I can categorically say that Uri Geller uses none of these methods. Quite simply, the man is a phenomenon."
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Jon Saint Germain » 04 Aug 2009, 04:22

Exposing methods has been proven to be ineffective in convincing people that fraudulent practitioners are cheating. All it does is make things harder for legitimate performers.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with this forum. I thought it was supposed to be supportive of legitimate practitioners of entertainment.

Sigh.

JSG
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Scepcop » 04 Aug 2009, 04:29

Jon Saint Germain wrote:Exposing methods has been proven to be ineffective in convincing people that fraudulent practitioners are cheating. All it does is make things harder for legitimate performers.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with this forum. I thought it was supposed to be supportive of legitimate practitioners of entertainment.

Sigh.

JSG


It was until these skeptics came in. There are still many supporters of your work in here. Don't discount them.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 04 Aug 2009, 04:53

he isnt unexplained
randi has said before that geller only has 5 tricks
spoon bending, key bending, drawing duplication, moving a compass and the 5 symbols predictions

in the videos
it shows How he bends the spoon with sleight of hand and misdirection, it shows how he does the drawing duplication and how he moves the compass.. 3 of his 5 tricks are explained in those videos and he is using normal ways of doing what he does

if you wanna take him for real
is you problem, but is like seeing david copperfield flying and beliving is truth just because you want to believe
uri geller is a magician
he even was on the cover of Genii magazine (magician´s magazine)

watch how easy it is (lots of practice in sleight of hand in misdirection)
to do this in a normal way WITHOUT having to say you are doing it with your mind
like uri does


also he didnt find oil
he was contracted by an australian oil company by the ceo of the company
he dowsed over a map and pointed to a bunch of locations
he didnt find the oil
and the ceo of that company was expelled from the company
dont you think if he had find oil he will have that information on his site?
thats when it stops being entertainment and becomes a scam
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 04 Aug 2009, 05:02

Jon Saint Germain wrote:Exposing methods has been proven to be ineffective in convincing people that fraudulent practitioners are cheating. All it does is make things harder for legitimate performers.

I'm becoming very disillusioned with this forum. I thought it was supposed to be supportive of legitimate practitioners of entertainment.

Sigh.

JSG


Yes.. entertainment
thats the key disclamer for all the ¨psychic¨ entertainers out there right?
if you get caught you said.. ¨i am an entertainer creating a reality¨ right?

so by me exposing uri as a fraudulent practitioner will make this harder for whom? i know you arent legitimate, i have seen your devices and consider you a true genius, i wont talk about your things dont worry, you and i might disagree on our approach to mentalism, but i trully respect your inventions.
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 04 Aug 2009, 05:26

by the way i saw the video you posted
the number is done with a swami
it is a thumb tip you can write with,
http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorderproduct.php?ID=2696
the use of the swami is explained full on 13 steps to mentalism by corinda
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1093

and the psychometry is done with a small magnet on his left hand

this were not controlled situations
magicians can fool scientist
this was prooved by the project alpha
didnt you know about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo

you are ignorant in the topic of magic like most people are, hence you get cheated really easily because you dont know what to look for
geller is as real as any other magician, why do you think he stops being a psychic and now is mystifier? he is haunted by that
appears to me than some have been brain washed by geller
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby ciscop » 05 Aug 2009, 01:49

Not sure if you read the wiseman link i posted earlier
here is an interesting quote to explain the After effect

For example,
in a book devoted to methods for faking alleged PKMB, magician Ben Harris (1985)
noted:
If you are doing a really convincing job, then you should be able to put a bent key on the
table and comment, ‘Look, it is still bending’, and have your spectators really believe that it
is. This may sound the height of boldness; however, the effect is astounding – and combined
with suggestion, it does work (p. 46).


This study examined whether it was possible to create PKMB after effects via verbal
suggestion. The results revealed that participants in the suggestion condition were
significantly more likely than those in the no-suggestion condition to report that the key
was continuing to bend. The size of the effect was far from trivial, with approximately
40% of participants in the suggestion condition reporting continued bending of the key
compared with just 5% of participants in the no-suggestion condition

Uri geller isnt a psychic
he is a mystifier... another way of saying magician.. :D
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Scepcop » 08 Aug 2009, 15:55

Here is a video by my friend John Benneth, a member of SCEPCOP, defending Uri Geller. He makes some valid points.

“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Scepcop » 08 Aug 2009, 16:09

ciscop wrote:by the way i saw the video you posted
the number is done with a swami
it is a thumb tip you can write with,
http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorderproduct.php?ID=2696
the use of the swami is explained full on 13 steps to mentalism by corinda
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1093

and the psychometry is done with a small magnet on his left hand

this were not controlled situations
magicians can fool scientist
this was prooved by the project alpha
didnt you know about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo

you are ignorant in the topic of magic like most people are, hence you get cheated really easily because you dont know what to look for
geller is as real as any other magician, why do you think he stops being a psychic and now is mystifier? he is haunted by that
appears to me than some have been brain washed by geller


We all know about Project Alpha. But when have magicians fooled Targ and Puthoff of SRI with their controlled conditions? Or Dr. Gary Schwartz and other top parapsychologists?

Maybe Geller no longer calls himself a psychic because he wants to be less controversial and not draw as much criticism?
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: Was Randi Wrong about Uri Geller?

Postby Azrael » 08 Aug 2009, 17:25

Scepcop wrote:
ciscop wrote:by the way i saw the video you posted
the number is done with a swami
it is a thumb tip you can write with,
http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorderproduct.php?ID=2696
the use of the swami is explained full on 13 steps to mentalism by corinda
http://www.penguinmagic.com/product.php?ID=1093

and the psychometry is done with a small magnet on his left hand

this were not controlled situations
magicians can fool scientist
this was prooved by the project alpha
didnt you know about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo

you are ignorant in the topic of magic like most people are, hence you get cheated really easily because you dont know what to look for
geller is as real as any other magician, why do you think he stops being a psychic and now is mystifier? he is haunted by that
appears to me than some have been brain washed by geller


We all know about Project Alpha. But when have magicians fooled Targ and Puthoff of SRI with their controlled conditions? Or Dr. Gary Schwartz and other top parapsychologists?

Maybe Geller no longer calls himself a psychic because he wants to be less controversial and not draw as much criticism?


When have "psychics" fooled anyone under controlled conditions. Geller never was is or shall be a psychic.
I'm always very skeptical of any situation where someone's notability hinges on their connection to another notable person
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