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OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 09:06

The study titled:
Patients' assessments of the effectiveness of homeopathic care in Norway: a prospective observational multicentre outcome study.

This study does not support the efficacy of homeopathy. All this study did was report that people like homeopathy. The study was not randomized, nor was it blinded. It was evaluated by a self scored subjective scale.

The score stands at 0-4. So far no articles have been submitted which demonstrate the efficacy of homeopathy.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 09:18

Question for Nostradamus.

When you are done debunking the non-aligned examples I've presented, will you also be debunking the 100 or 200 other positive homeopathic findings (at the blog link, but I can post them to this board if for any reason, you can't click on the link). Because those were done by professionals working at homeopathic/alternative/complimentary clinics. Modern, state-of-the-art clinics at established and esteemed hospitals and colleges. Charles Darwin was even a member of one of these institutions.

Or are you simply limiting yourself to the homeopathic findings from Iraqi veternarians and other non-aligned clinics?
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 08 Mar 2010, 10:17

Kevin Kane wrote:Question for Nostradamus.

When you are done debunking the non-aligned examples I've presented, will you also be debunking the 100 or 200 other positive homeopathic findings (at the blog link, but I can post them to this board if for any reason, you can't click on the link). Because those were done by professionals working at homeopathic/alternative/complimentary clinics. Modern, state-of-the-art clinics at established and esteemed hospitals and colleges. Charles Darwin was even a member of one of these institutions.

Or are you simply limiting yourself to the homeopathic findings from Iraqi veternarians and other non-aligned clinics?

Are you referring to the blog link you posted a couple pages back? The one with John Benneth's videos on the first page? Please oh please tell me you have another blog you're referring to.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 10:37

In post by Kevin Kane on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:41 am you provided a list of articles.

Are you now saying that these articles do not support the efficacy of homeopathy? Well if that is the case I believe you because it appears that the articles do not support homeopathy.

Can you show any articles that support the efficacy of homeopathy?
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 10:43

You stated in that post:
I've chosen some offbeat ones that are not aligned with such institutions.


You claim that homeopathy works, i.e. that is is efficacious. Do you want to support your claim? Do that by listing the specific articles that you believe support homeopathy.

It is not sufficient to claim that the studies exist. Point to them and defend them. In reviewing you list of articles I actually took the time to find them and to scan through them. In most cases the conclusions were clear in stating that the work did not show anything about the efficacy of homeopathy.

Do not expect a posted journal article to go unread. I will take the time to read what you post - if I have access to the articles. And believe me I can get access to most of what has been posted.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 13:58

Nostradamus wrote:
You claim that homeopathy works, i.e. that is is efficacious.

It is not sufficient to claim that the studies exist. Point to them and defend them. In reviewing you list of articles I actually took the time to find them and to scan through them. In most cases the conclusions were clear in stating that the work did not show anything about the efficacy of homeopathy.

Do not expect a posted journal article to go unread. I will take the time to read what you post - if I have access to the articles. And believe me I can get access to most of what has been posted.


Everything I've posted so far shows that homeopathy works. I don't know why obvioiusly refuse to acknowledge scientific findings and results that are positive, that show efficacy (Definition: Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect). I suspect you're simply dishonest in your intent. Everything I've posted shows positve results aka .. it works, it is efficacious.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 08 Mar 2010, 20:10

Kevin Kane wrote:Everything I've posted so far shows that homeopathy works.

No it doesn't.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 21:25

Yes, the studies I posted show effects due to homeopathic medicines. And many more studies exist that do the same.

Skeptics need to stop saying "no, it doesn't" "no, you're wrong" so much, because it's a lazy, dishonest thing to say ... over and over .... like some friggin HEAD ON commercial. If you make such statements, you should found it in facts and logic and not merely say, "no, no, no", like some petulant child who doesn't want to eat his spinach.

Skepticism is the belief in the negative. The belief that the real is not real. The factual is not factual. That the effective is not effective. Skepticism is a negative (or false) belief system.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 21:45

Everything I've posted so far shows that homeopathy works. I don't know why obvioiusly[sic] refuse to acknowledge scientific findings and results that are positive, that show efficacy (Definition: Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect). I suspect you're simply dishonest in your intent. Everything I've posted shows positve[sic] results aka .. itworks[sic], it is efficacious.


That's not true. The result for many experiments is that the experiment supports the null hypothesis. That is often a positive result. It is positive in that it lends support to a well established model.

Your claim here is trying to weasel out. I stated the reason why the articles you provided links to were not in support of the efficacy of homeopathy. Take the first article. That article is abundantly explicit in its statement that there was no difference in the outcome for patients. The patients saw no difference. The professional staff did not see a difference. The only difference was seen in a test done using a computer. The paper's real claim to fame is that they have found an objective measure that can be used in place of people to assess differences. That is the extent of the paper's claim. The objective method agreed that there was no difference between the patient groups for most of the test period including the final day of testing. So here is a method that is objective that allows the results to be reproduced by another lab. That's good.

Was this treatment efficacious? The patients did not say it was. The professional staff did not say it was. The computer result agreed that the final results were the same.

Was the tested objective method effective? Likely. It agreed with the professional staff most of the time. On two days the staff and the objective method disagreed, but the difference was small. Thus the staff reports that the objective method could be used in place of their professional training on the sole issue of comparing the externally observed symptom.

Did you read the article Kevin? You state that, "Everything I've posted shows positve[sic] results." If you do not agree then its time for you to point out where in the article you believe the article states that homeopathy is efficacious.

So now let's get down to dishonesty. Did you purposely and knowingly and dishonestly post an incorrect definition of efficacy? Here are definitions. Bolding is mine.
capacity or power to produce a desired effect
marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect
in vaccine research, the ability of a vaccine to produce a desired clinical effect
Effectiveness of a medication.
The achievement of the desired results or effects
a measure of the benefit resulting from an intervention for a given health problem under the ideal conditions of an investigation
marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 21:51

Yes, the studies I posted show effects due to homeopathic medicines. And many more studies exist that do the same.

Skeptics need to stop saying "no, it doesn't" "no, you're wrong" so much, because it's a lazy, dishonest thing to say ... over and over .... like some friggin HEAD ON commercial. If you make such statements, you should found it in facts and logic and not merely say, "no, no, no", like some petulant child who doesn't want to eat his spinach.

Skepticism is the belief in the negative. The belief that the real is not real. The factual is not factual. That the effective is not effective. Skepticism is a negative (or false) belief system.


1. No, these studies do not show effects due to homeopathic medicines. See previous post.
2. Kevin your vacuous claim that there are many articles in support of homeopathy is lazy and devoid of evidence.
3. Skepticism is the belief in the positive. Homeopathy is based on anything but facts.

You seemed to have suggested that the articles you posted don't really support homeopathy. Reading the articles certainly made that clear. Do you have articles that support homeopathy? please post the links. At present the count stands at:
0 - 4, No articles support homeopathy
I'll reset the count to 0 to 0 if you have a new list and want to get a better start on demonstrating evidence.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 23:48

Nostradamus wrote:
That's not true.


I predicted you'd say that.

The definition of efficacy was taken from Wikipedia. So, take it up with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy

As for the rest of your argument .. It's wrong. Ok?
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 09 Mar 2010, 00:06

So the wikipedia was wrong - again! Hard to believe. NOT!

So the score stands at 0-4. Homeopathy is a failure.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 09 Mar 2010, 00:08

I was about to change the wikipedia and fix their bad definition when I read:
In a healthcare context, efficacy indicates the capacity for beneficial change (or therapeutic effect) of a given intervention (e.g. a medicine, medical device, surgical procedure, or a public health intervention).


Kevin are you trying to misrepresent what the wikipedia gave as a definition?
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 09 Mar 2010, 01:06

Kevin Kane wrote:Yes, the studies I posted show effects due to homeopathic medicines. And many more studies exist that do the same.

Skeptics need to stop saying "no, it doesn't" "no, you're wrong" so much, because it's a lazy, dishonest thing to say ... over and over .... like some friggin HEAD ON commercial. If you make such statements, you should found it in facts and logic and not merely say, "no, no, no", like some petulant child who doesn't want to eat his spinach.

Skepticism is the belief in the negative. The belief that the real is not real. The factual is not factual. That the effective is not effective. Skepticism is a negative (or false) belief system.

So, because I'm a skeptic, I shouldn't say "no, it doesn't" and instead say "yes, it does Kevin, you're right" when in fact the truth is "no, it doesn't support homeopathic medicine?" Are you wanting me to lie Kevin? That's not a very nice thing to ask of someone, now is it. Nostrodamus is absolutely correct in his assessment of your posts. I see no reason to re-address his findings. Rather than finding an article that you think supports your theory and, without even reading it, confidently post it thinking it supports your belief. The truth of the matter is, Kevin, true homeopathic medicine has not been proven to work above the placebo effect. It is a dangerous method of healing people by making them think they are getting better when, in fact, it is not making them better. A word of advice, if you want to believe in homeopathy, then fine, go take you a homeopathic sleeping pill and enjoy your restless sleep. However, you would be wasting your time trying to find an article in JAMA or any other peer reviewed medical journal that supports your claim. They don't exist.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 09 Mar 2010, 03:09

Kevin Kane wrote:
Blog with a lot of links to homeopathy studies .... most links are to PubMed (NIH.gov)

http://homeopathytorrents.blogspot.com/ ... tific.html

Most of these trials or studies were done by homeopaths, college branches (alternative/complimentary medicine), hospital wings, institutes, etc, since that's who usually tests homeopathic medicine, perfectly legitimate and many are prestigious .... but .... I've chosen some offbeat ones that are not aligned with such institutions.

Kevin posts the above link which essentially leads you to a blog with a bunch of videos made by John Benneth. Then, Kevin starts a new thread entitled "Carl Sagan - Kook." (Carl Sagan being one of the most brilliant minds in history) Oh the irony in that... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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