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OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 12:14

This reminds me of the frauds attempting to prop up pyramid power. They fell back on misrepresenting experiments done 150 years earlier that were poorly done.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 12:17

As far as Darwin is concerned can you show that he succussed his solution. Of course, because he thought homeopathy was wrong.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 07 Mar 2010, 13:50

Nostradamus wrote:In fact this experiment by Darwin is not related to homeopathy in any way.


Tell that to these skeptics:

http://www.philosophical-investigations.org/Homeopathy

"An historical curiousity - or confirmation of the importance of the homeopathic principle? is the fact that Darwin tested out ultrahigh dilutions on carnivorous plants."

"But we have to be careful; homeopathy was not the declared, explicit, subject of this text, although it may have been an underlying riddle for Darwin (we know that he visited an homeopath, out of despair about his condition, and felt better after)."


And yes, they are listed as a skeptic group:

http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Science_in_ ... l_Inquiry/

Nostradamus wrote:So now you claim that there are studies that are searchable. So why don't you show us one study. The reason you don't show us dude is that you know the studies do NOT exist.


It's not my job to educate the ignorant or do the homework of the lazy. But for someone who claims to think critically, it seems hypocritical to not do any research before making a claim.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 07 Mar 2010, 17:41

I did Nostradamus' research for him. Since he doesn't know how the internet works and can't work the little buttons and stuff.


Blog with a lot of links to homeopathy studies .... most links are to PubMed (NIH.gov)

http://homeopathytorrents.blogspot.com/ ... tific.html

Most of these trials or studies were done by homeopaths, college branches (alternative/complimentary medicine), hospital wings, institutes, etc, since that's who usually tests homeopathic medicine, perfectly legitimate and many are prestigious .... but .... I've chosen some offbeat ones that are not aligned with such institutions.


All positive.


Connecticut Facial Plastic Surgery, Farmington, Conn, USA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Institute of Physiology, Biochemistry and Animal Hygiene, University of Bonn, Germany.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Research Institute, Miami Children's Hospital, Florida
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Department of Public Health and General Practice, Norwegian University of Science and Technology, Trondheim, Norway
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Department of Zoology, University of Kalyani, India.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum

Department of Surgery and Obstetrics, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Mosul, Iraq.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... d_RVDocSum



Reviews showing institutional bias against homeopathy, or flawed negative studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15955254

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1884574/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338200

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16319808

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371564
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 20:27

It's not my job to educate the ignorant or do the homework of the lazy. But for someone who claims to think critically, it seems hypocritical to not do any research before making a claim.


This is your claim, not mine. It is your responsibility to get off your lazy backside and defend this claim. I see that you finally posted some studies. This is where the fun begins.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 20:39

You claim that some group thinks there may be some remote connection to Darwin. What is missed is that the dilute material in no way suggests homeopathy.

From the site you pulled out a quote fromthis page listed under historical anomalies.
But we have to be careful; homeopathy was not the declared, explicit, subject of this text, although it may have been an underlying riddle for Darwin (we know that he visited an homeopath, out of despair about his condition, and felt better after).


Here is what Darwin thought about homeopathy:

Dr Smith, I think, is sensible, but he is a Homœopathist!!

I grieve to say that Dr Gully gives me homoœopathic medicines three times a day, which I take obediently without an atom of faith.


The reason Darwin went to see the homeopathy doctor was not for homeopathy, but something called the water cure. Darwin suggests that the reason he improves after his trip to the Malvern hospital is the water cure:
I most sincerely hope that your health is pretty good: mine is much better, thanks to the inestimable Water Cure, than it has been for several years, but I see that I shall never have a sound stomach & therefore never be really strong again.


More mocking comments by Darwin:
You were quite right to send me sneers versus Mr Scott— I have amused them here with Homœopathetic stories.— My Father observes that as long as he can remember, there has always been something wonderful, more or less of the same kind, going on & there has always been people weak enough to believe & he says, slapping both knees, he supposes there always will be—so that he thinks Mr Scott no greater a fool than the other past & future fools; a more charitable belief, than I can indulge in


From http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/homeopathic-revolution-by-dana-ullman.html
Darwin was shocked at the response of the plant’s tentacles to ever increasingly dilute solutions. Ullman pounces on this as proof of Darwin wanting to research homeopathic solutions. There are three things wrong with this: one, Darwin never says anything about his research being homeopathic in nature; two, homeopaths tell us that dilute solutions are not homeopathic – succussion is necessary (apparently); and thirdly, the solutions are still light by homeopathic standards – homeopaths dilute beyond the point that the original chemical will be present.


So once again you are wrong.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 07 Mar 2010, 21:01

Let's look at study 1. Positive? :lol: :lol:
The study says:
1. No person saw any subjective differences. The patients did not. The staff did not.
2. The computer saw a difference on 2 days - not even the last day!

RESULTS: No subjective differences were noted between the treatment group and the control group, either by the patients or by the professional staff. No objective difference in the degree of color change was found. Patients receiving homeopathic A. montana were found to have a smaller area of ecchymosis on postoperative days 1, 5, 7, and 10. These differences were statistically significant (P<.05) only on postoperative days 1 (P<.005) and 7 (P<.001). CONCLUSIONS: This computer model provides an efficient, objective, and reproducible means with which to assess perioperative color changes, both in terms of area and degree. Patients taking perioperative homeopathic A. montana exhibited less ecchymosis, and that difference was statistically significant (P<.05) on 2 of the 4 postoperative data points evaluated.


There was no difference in the outcome. There was a difference in the middle of recovery.

A positive result - hardly. At best this article claims that something that is apparently not of interest can be detected by a simple digital camera. This is hilarious. I can't wait to see what the next article is going to say. :lol:
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby NinjaPuppy » 08 Mar 2010, 00:23

Kevin Kane - Please refrain from personal attacks.

Kevin Kane wrote:I did Nostradamus' research for him. Since he doesn't know how the internet works and can't work the little buttons and stuff.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 02:02

Investigation of cytokine expression in human leukocyte cultures with two immune-modulatory homeopathic preparations.


Have you read this study Kevin or have you just copied the link assuming it contained something of interest.

This does not discuss the efficacy of homeopathy. It's an in vitro study that I can get a hold of I hope. It seems to simply show that another material can elicit a response when administer invitro in small quantities.

Onto item 3.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 07:10

NinjaPuppy wrote:Kevin Kane - Please refrain from personal attacks.

Kevin Kane wrote:I did Nostradamus' research for him. Since he doesn't know how the internet works and can't work the little buttons and stuff.


Since you've yet to discipline Nostradamus from previous personal attacks against SCEPCOP, is it to be understood that personal attacks are allowed or not allowed? Or are only skeptics allowed to attack personal character? Please clarify.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 08 Mar 2010, 07:11

Nostradamus wrote:
It's not my job to educate the ignorant or do the homework of the lazy. But for someone who claims to think critically, it seems hypocritical to not do any research before making a claim.


This is your claim, not mine. It is your responsibility to get off your lazy backside and defend this claim. I see that you finally posted some studies. This is where the fun begins.


You're the one who made the claim:
Nostradamus wrote:Homeopathy supporters need to understand that their beliefs are irrational and have not been proven. That goes for both efficacy and mechanism.


Nostradamus wrote:
The problem is that the evidence supporting homeopathy is limited to a few early trials. I have only found 1 study. That study did not show a strong result. Can you show us even 1 study supporting homeopathy?


This claim by Nostradamus is not supported by the evidence. When challenged, Nostradamus asked for evidence to contravert (disprove) his unproven claims. I provided Nostradamus with plenty of findings, and much more evidence available at a single mouse click .. hundreds of provings, in fact. Nostradamus ignored these. Nostradamus instead choose he disagreed with.

Meanwhile, Nostradamus has yet to provide evidence for his claims.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 08 Mar 2010, 07:34

Kevin Kane wrote:
Nostradamus wrote:
The problem is that the evidence supporting homeopathy is limited to a few early trials. I have only found 1 study. That study did not show a strong result. Can you show us even 1 study supporting homeopathy?


This claim by Nostradamus is not supported by the evidence. When challenged, Nostradamus asked for evidence to contravert (disprove) his unproven claims. I provided Nostradamus with plenty of findings, and much more evidence available at a single mouse click .. hundreds of provings, in fact. Nostradamus ignored these. Nostradamus instead choose he disagreed with.

Meanwhile, Nostradamus has yet to provide evidence for his claims.

Evidence for what Kevin? There is no evidence from peer reviewed scientific journals, from the JAMA, from the National Academy of Science, nor elsewhere that supports the effectiveness of homeopathy beyond that of the Placebo Effect. The last major study in "The Lancet" from 2005 supports the findings that there is nothing to suggest homeopathic remedies heal people.
He is asking for a study that supports homeopathy. Keep in mind that for a study to be plausible, it must be replicated and peer reviewed at a minimum. The ones you have posted don't fit that description that I can find. Again, just 1 simple study that you can post that supports your claim would be helpful.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 08:47

This claim by Nostradamus is not supported by the evidence. When challenged, Nostradamus asked for evidence to contravert (disprove) his unproven claims. I provided Nostradamus with plenty of findings, and much more evidence available at a single mouse click .. hundreds of provings, in fact. Nostradamus ignored these. Nostradamus instead choose he disagreed with.

Meanwhile, Nostradamus has yet to provide evidence for his claims.


It is well known that it is not possible to prove a universal negative, which is what you demand I do. Since it is well known that is impossible it makes your demand not possible.

On the other hand you have made a claim that homeopathy works. So it is fair to ask for someone to support that claim.

The so-called evidence you have posted here to date does not support homeopathic claims. At best all that has been shown is that there are materials which can elicit a response even if present in small quantities. This is a well known issue and supported by science. In fact, I gave several examples in support of this notion. Recall my mention of hormones.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 08:52

So far I have examined the first 2 articles you posted. I scanned through much of article 1. I wanted to see what they did in image processing and what they did was very simple. The conclusion they drew does not claim any efficacy of homeopathy. The second article was an in vitro study. I was not able to access that article from home. I doubt you read that article either.

I will go through your post and check out each article one at a time. If the rest of the articles are like the first 2 articles in your list, then you have NOT posted any support for homeopathy.

If you think I was mistaken on either article 1 or 2 then read the articles and tell me where in the articles you think I have made a mistake.

The score is now 0-2. The posted articles do NOT support the efficacy of homeopathy.
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Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Nostradamus » 08 Mar 2010, 09:01

Study 3 is titled: Investigation of cytokine expression in human leukocyte cultures with two immune-modulatory homeopathic preparations.

This is an in vitro study showing that low concentrations of materials can elicit a response. This article does not demonstrate the efficacy of homeopathy.

The score stands at 0-3 with no articles supporting the efficacy of homeopathy.
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