View Active Topics          Latest 100 Topics          View Your Posts          Switch to Mobile

OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 00:49

Hi Kevin, welcome to the forum. Not sure why you are getting all worked up over skeptics decrying homeopathy, however, let me add my two cents if I may.
Here is a link to Walgreen: http://www.walgreens.com/search/results ... omeopathic
As an example, which doesn't even begin to describe the issue skeptics have with homeopathic medicines, stores such as Walgreens which can be found in many neighborhoods across the world are selling "medicines" such as homeopathic teething drops for children who probably are getting no relief for their pain. It's serious business Kevin, but thanks for letting us read your opinion.
Just one example, but one of the reasons I, as a skeptic, gets quite worked up over homeopathic medicine.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54






Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 00:57

Kevin Kane wrote:Homeopathy has been around for a long time. It's been scrutinized, peer-reviewed and regulated by many professionals over time. But now, a group of pseudo-scientists have discovered how lethal it is.


Hello again Kevin,
When you say "peer-reviewed and regulated by many professionals..." just what specifically do you mean? Homeopathy is not regulated by the FDA of the United States. Peer-reviewed journal articles have denounced homeopathy as being nothing more beneficial as a placebo. Would you mind explaning where homeopathy is regulated?
Thanks
Wag
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Jan 2010, 02:05

ProfWag wrote:Hello again Kevin,
When you say "peer-reviewed and regulated by many professionals..." just what specifically do you mean? Homeopathy is not regulated by the FDA of the United States. Peer-reviewed journal articles have denounced homeopathy as being nothing more beneficial as a placebo. Would you mind explaning where homeopathy is regulated?
Thanks
Wag


It's been reviewed and regulated by the US government. That's easy to prove. And modern peer reviews such as the AMA/JAMA, AHA, AAFP, etc, differ from older reviewers because they are now heavily funded by pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Quick search:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/1 ... sa1221.htm

Homeopathy is an alternative medicine. Different methods produce different results. Better and safer methods produce better and safer results. I don't see how anyone could look at modern medical practices and say that these are the results they want. Doctors reduced to pushing drugs who then have to worry about malpractice suits because they trusted in pharaceutical science. Patients who endure dangerous side-effects and dependencies at great expense to their finances and safety. These are not better results.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 19 Jan 2010, 02:49

hahahahahahaha
welcome kevin!!
so i guess you are one of those skeptics-haters
that doesnt realized skepticism help us on our everyday life


and... if homeopathy worked wouldnt be an alternative medicine
it would be simply MEDICINE

have you actually reserched what is homeopathy?
IT IS JUST SHAKING WATER!!.. thats it
i understand if you believe in it without knowing what it is
but if somebody does.. then they are self delluded or actually believe water is magic
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Jan 2010, 03:02

Clean water is pretty safe stuff, and essential too. It's legal to drink and sell water. Bottle water, sparkling mineral water, vitamin water, tonic water, carbonated water, flavored sugar water. I don't see many skeptics bothering to debunk the claims of these water sellers.

And JAMA has been a pharm rag since the 1970s. Occassionally they review non-western or alternative medicines, but modern medical reviews aren't authoraties on their use and practice. JAMA is not an authority on alternative medicine. Plain and simple.

Try telling the 3 billion people in India and China that their medicine isn't real medicine.
Last edited by Kevin Kane on 19 Jan 2010, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ciscop » 19 Jan 2010, 03:08

Kevin Kane wrote:Clean water is pretty safe stuff, and essential too. It's legal to drink and sell water. Bottle water, sparkling mineral water, vitamin water, tonic water, carbonated water, flavored sugar water. I don't see many skeptics bothering to debunk the claims of these water sellers.

And JAMA has been a pharm rag since the 1970s. Occassionally they review non-western or alternative medicines, but modern medical reviews aren't authorataties on their use and practice. JAMA is not an authority on alternative medicine. Plain and simple.


you can sell all the water you want
i just dont approve when somebody makes outlandish claims without backing it up with evidence

homeopathic sleep pills DO NOTHING
some skeptics even eat a bunch of pills before giving a lecture :-)
now.. sleeping is NOTHING
imagine buying those pills for REAL SICKNESS.. people end up going to the hospital and in critical state in some cases for using ¨non medicine¨ (better term for alternative medicine).

drink all the water you want
water is good for you, but it isnt magical
For every person who reads this valuable book there are hundreds of naïve souls who would prefer to have their spines tingled by a sensational but worthless potboiler by some hack journalist of the paranormal. You who now read these sentences join a small but wiser minority. Martin Gaardner (Psychology of the Psychic)
User avatar
ciscop
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 12:04

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Jan 2010, 03:13

Sometimes, doing nothing is better and safer than doing something foolish.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 03:20

Kevin Kane wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Hello again Kevin,
When you say "peer-reviewed and regulated by many professionals..." just what specifically do you mean? Homeopathy is not regulated by the FDA of the United States. Peer-reviewed journal articles have denounced homeopathy as being nothing more beneficial as a placebo. Would you mind explaning where homeopathy is regulated?
Thanks
Wag


It's been reviewed and regulated by the US government. That's easy to prove. And modern peer reviews such as the AMA/JAMA, AHA, AAFP, etc, differ from older reviewers because they are now heavily funded by pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Quick search:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/1 ... sa1221.htm

Homeopathy is an alternative medicine. Different methods produce different results. Better and safer methods produce better and safer results. I don't see how anyone could look at modern medical practices and say that these are the results they want. Doctors reduced to pushing drugs who then have to worry about malpractice suits because they trusted in pharaceutical science. Patients who endure dangerous side-effects and dependencies at great expense to their finances and safety. These are not better results.

Let me preface this by saying I am not a medical doctor nor do I claim training in any medical field.
First, I have no argument with you on the fact that the AMA, et. al are funded by pharmaceutical and insurance companies. I’ve never disputed that (though I do appreciate the source as those are rare around here.)
Second, as far as being regulated, you’re correct to a point, but a bit misleading as well.
Most homeopathic drugs fall under the following definition:
(A) a vitamin;
(B) a mineral;
(C) an herb or other botanical;
(D) an amino acid;
(E) a dietary supplement used by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake; or
(F) a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described in clause (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E).

If it falls under one of the above definitions, it is considered a dietary supplement.
Third, according to the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, dietary supplements are regulated much differently than conventional medicine as can be read at the FDA website.
http://www.fda.gov/food/DietarySupplements/default.htm
Stating they are regulated is accurate but alluding to them being regulated the same as conventional medications is not accurate.

Finally, your statement “Patients who endure dangerous side-effects and dependencies at great expense to their finances and safety. These are not better results.” is opinionated at best and I would like to know what you are saying they are “better” than. For example, my Doctor tells me I have cancer, but it may or may not be terminal. He/she prescribes chemo tablets. After taking these tablets, 40% of patients die and 60% live. Without them, 90% die. Believe me, I’m going to take the tablets. Granted, that’s a far fetched example, but hopefully my point is understood.
Many unwanted side effects and, unfortunately, death resulting from conventional medications do happen. I won’t dispute that either. Stating honestly, however, many of these side effects often are the result of non-agreement with other prescribed medications. There are so many different medications on the market today that there is virtually an endless number of possible combinations of prescribed medications that would make it impossible to determine what the side effects could be, much less how each individual reacts to certain medications.
To conclude, if I am sick, I go to my Doctor who prescribes a medicine that has the potential to cure me. I don’t go to the drugstore and take a medication that contains .00006% bark from an oak tree.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 03:25

Kevin Kane wrote:Clean water is pretty safe stuff, and essential too. It's legal to drink and sell water. Bottle water, sparkling mineral water, vitamin water, tonic water, carbonated water, flavored sugar water. I don't see many skeptics bothering to debunk the claims of these water sellers.


I think you're incorrect Kevin. Many skeptics debunk claims of water sellers, especially plain and simple bottled water. People are polluting the planet with these plastic water bottles that are essentially the same as tap water. Fortunately, reusable bottles are becoming more and more popular as are water filters for those who are really against tap water. But if it wasn't for skeptics, I believe the bottled water industry would be much, much richer. My own, unresearched opinion anyway.
Last edited by ProfWag on 19 Jan 2010, 03:27, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 03:27

Kevin Kane wrote:Sometimes, doing nothing is better and safer than doing something foolish.

Now that I can agree with. But not when it comes to my family's health. I don't take unnecessary chances with that.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 03:35

Kevin Kane wrote:Try telling the 3 billion people in India and China that their medicine isn't real medicine.


I would find it very difficult to tell 3 billion people anything. I just don't have that kind of time. But I WILL tell those who read this the following:
Life expectancy in the U.S.: 78.2
Life expectancy in China: 73.0
Life expectancy in India: 64.7

Just sayin'...
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Jan 2010, 04:26

ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:Try telling the 3 billion people in India and China that their medicine isn't real medicine.


I would find it very difficult to tell 3 billion people anything. I just don't have that kind of time. But I WILL tell those who read this the following:
Life expectancy in the U.S.: 78.2
Life expectancy in China: 73.0
Life expectancy in India: 64.7

Just sayin'...


300 million vs 3 Billion .. just saying.

I'm sure you're right about the regulation of bottled waters and some of the claims of various vitamin waters and sports drinks and such. But they're still allowed to sell them, still allowed to buy them, still allowed to claim that they do something more than nothing.

Most drugs have warnings and possibly dangerous side effects, and we know these are potent drugs that effect changes and carry consequences. Taking them is to risk side effects or misprescription. Some people have good luck with them, and some don't. But what part of gambling isn't foolish? Did you know that you can feel better by getting a good night's rest? That you can heal your body by doing absolutely nothing? It defies common sense, it defies the logic of doing something as urgently as you described, it may even be called magical .. but it actually works. And it's legal.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby Kevin Kane » 19 Jan 2010, 04:54

If Homeopathy, or any form of medicine, makes the patient feel safer, reassured, peaceful, empowered, feel like they're getting special attention, feel like they are cared for, that medicine is surely worth something. Where are all the complaints against homeopathy by it's patients? The only ones complaining about homeopathy are the people who are NOT using it!

The whole point of skepticism, of debunking, is to raise questions, concerns, alarms, investigations, and ultimately take actions at REAL problems. Problems like financial and health frauds, health risks, real dangers and abuses to society. That's the whole point of skepticism and investigation.

What is the point of investigating or debunking something that is safe? And has a long proven record of safety. Where's the harm caused to any segment of society by the use and practice of homeopathy? NOWHERE! No need for alarm. In fact .. false alarm.

False alarms are fraud.
User avatar
Kevin Kane
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 01:18

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 05:06

Kevin Kane wrote:
ProfWag wrote:
Kevin Kane wrote:Try telling the 3 billion people in India and China that their medicine isn't real medicine.


I would find it very difficult to tell 3 billion people anything. I just don't have that kind of time. But I WILL tell those who read this the following:
Life expectancy in the U.S.: 78.2
Life expectancy in China: 73.0
Life expectancy in India: 64.7

Just sayin'...


300 million vs 3 Billion .. just saying.

I'm sure you're right about the regulation of bottled waters and some of the claims of various vitamin waters and sports drinks and such. But they're still allowed to sell them, still allowed to buy them, still allowed to claim that they do something more than nothing.

Most drugs have warnings and possibly dangerous side effects, and we know these are potent drugs that effect changes and carry consequences. Taking them is to risk side effects or misprescription. Some people have good luck with them, and some don't. But what part of gambling isn't foolish? Did you know that you can feel better by getting a good night's rest? That you can heal your body by doing absolutely nothing? It defies common sense, it defies the logic of doing something as urgently as you described, it may even be called magical .. but it actually works. And it's legal.

Could you please explain why the population total is relevant to the average (or mean) life expectancy equations? Using that thought, Swaziland has a population total of slightly more than 1 million people so it should be much higher on the list than the life expectancy of 39.6 years that it enjoys today. Or not.

I'll go so far as to agree with you on other things Kevin. There are many, many magical things that defies logic that actually works. Massages feel great and help me relax and relieve my aches and pains for a while. Sleep not only helps you feel better but your muscles do most of their healing while one sleeps. My skeptical point of view of homeopathy is that if people swear by their results, when something serious comes along, they might as well kiss their butts goodbye. If you don't want to gamble with your health and stick with homeopathic products, that's fine with me and I encourage you to do so since I don't know you, but please don't try to talk my family into doing it. I love them too much.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

Re: OMG .. the Homeopaths are Coming!!!

Postby ProfWag » 19 Jan 2010, 05:13

Kevin Kane wrote:If Homeopathy, or any form of medicine, makes the patient feel safer, reassured, peaceful, empowered, feel like they're getting special attention, feel like they are cared for, that medicine is surely worth something. Where are all the complaints against homeopathy by it's patients? The only ones complaining about homeopathy are the people who are NOT using it!


My wife suffers from extreme lower back pain, mood swings, and insomnia. She's also not the skeptic I am and tries homopaths, accupuncture, is a reiki practitioner, etc (you get the picture of her). You know what I have to live with when she decides to use homeopathic medicines instead of her prescription meds? I wide away person who constantly bitches about her back. That's a true story. SHE doesn't realize it, but I sure do.
Speaking of reiki, she has been given reiki for her back many, many times. You know what? Her back still hurts. She thinks, however, it works for a while immediately after the session. I think she's lying to herself.
User avatar
ProfWag
 
Posts: 3843
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 03:54

PreviousNext

Return to Holistic Health / Alternative Medicine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests