Discussions about Holistic Health and Alternative Medicine.
There are papers galore being cited in the the previous posts, particularly the Japanese study previously -- including critiques and demonstrations of researcher bias in interpreting 'data' (which is clearly manipulable) and indeed the vested interest connections of the researchers themselves which are frequently if not universally not disclosed.
I'm not sure why a paper cited or analysed on an anti-vax site isn't a paper to you, Arouet?
Let's face it, there are going to be relatively few doctors and researchers out there who are avowedly anti-vax, not because vaccines don't cause harm, but because mass public vaccination is a reputational mainstay of the profession and a major bread and butter item. How do you convince someone else in the medical profession to give you funding to demonstrate that all the other studies are wrong and that the med school curriculum is wrong and that vaxes are harmful and cause SIDS and ASD and ADHD and other brain damage and asthma and allergies for a percentage of children -- it's career suicide. The profession will hate you, the journals will hate you, the drug companies will hate you (and will spend a lot of money trying to smear you) and the public health officials will hate you. There are paediatricians and other doctors speaking out about it, already cited above, like Lawrence Palevsky, but as soon as they say something or get cited, you, Arouet, say it's not acceptable because they are inevitably quoted on an anti-vax site -- that should go with the territory, surely?
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 26 Sep 2012, 05:15, edited 1 time in total.
Here's some papers for you which study and question the safety of thimerosal, Arouet:
1.Hornig M, Chian D, Lipkin WI. Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse strain dependent. Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Sep;9(9):833-45
2. Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarckson T. Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.pdf
3. Waly M, Olteanu H, Banerjee R, Choi SW, Mason JB, Parker BS, Sukumar S, Shim S, Sharma A, Benzecry JM, Power-Charnitsky VA, Deth RC. Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal. Mol Psychiatry. 2004 Apr;9(4):358-70.
4. James SJ, Slikker W 3rd, Melnyk S, New E, Pogribna M, Jernigan S. Thimerosal neurotoxicity is associated with glutathione depletion: protection with glutathione precursors. Neurotoxicology. 2005 Jan;26(1):1-8.
5. Geier DA, Geier MR. A comparative evaluation of the effects of MMR immunization and mercury doses from thimerosal-containing childhood vaccines on the population prevalence of autism.Med Sci Monit. 2004 Mar;10(3):PI33-9.
6. Geier D, Geier MR. Neurodevelopmental disorders following thimerosal-containing childhood immunizations: a follow-up analysis. Int J Toxicol. 2004 Nov-Dec;23(6):369-76.
7. Geier DA, Geier MR. A two-phased population epidemiological study of the safety of thimerosal-containing vaccines: a follow-up analysis. Med Sci Monit. 2005 Mar 24;11(4):CR160-170
8. Blaxill MF, L Redwood L, and Bernard S.Thimerosal and autism? A plausible hypothesis that should not be dismissed. Medical Hypotheses; 62: 788-794, 2004.
9. Humphrey ML, Cole MP, Pendergrass JC, Kiningham KK. Mitochondrial Mediated Thimerosal-Induced Apoptosis in a Human Neuroblastoma Cell Line (SK-N-SH). Neurotoxicology. 2005 Apr 30; (Epub ahead of print)
10. Parran DK, Barker A, Ehrich M. Effects of Thimerosal on NGF signal transduction and cell death in neuroblastoma cells Toxicol Sci. 2005 Apr 20; (Epub ahead of print)
11. Havarinasab S, Haggqvist B, Bjorn E, Pollard KM, Hultman P. Immunosuppressive and autoimmune effects of thimerosal in mice. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2005 Apr 15;204(2):109-21.
12. Ueha-Ishibashi T, Tatsuishi T, Iwase K, Nakao H, Umebayashi C, Nishizaki Y, Nishimura Y, Oyama Y, Hirama S, Okano Y. Property of thimerosal-induced decrease in cellular content of glutathione in rat thymocytes: a flow cytometric study with 5-chloromethylfluorescein diacetate.Toxicol In Vitro. 2004 Oct;18(5):563-9
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110314 ... rkYazbakFE
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110328 ... HOYazbakFE
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/20110405 ... ceYazbakFE
Once you get through that lot, let me know what you conclude. You would need access to a highly subscribed med library to get the articles, of course.
Lot of stuff to read going on in this thread - I'm interested in continuing down this road, but on the understanding that this is going to be a slow burn type of discussion. I have three kids under 7 so I have a legitimate interest in making sure they are safe. Been crazy busy lately and when I want to be distracted I need brain breaks rather than brain attacks!
But I am interested in your take on that email in exhibit 3 - am I missing something with regard to it? I'll have to re-read the paper, but I'm not seeing how it demonstrates they falsified data. I don't think it clearly says that. I'm not sure what it indicates, frankly.
When trying to make any REAL sense of much of this information, expect multiple brain attacks.
This is the one so called "CT" that means so much more to me than all of the others. We're talking about children, not some elected official who might lose face or data about plane vs. skyscraper that may or may not change if it should ever (God forbid) happen again. IMO, this vaccine situation is like not child proofing your home or allowing your child to go run with some scissors.
I agree that the vaccine situation is not like running with scissors. The difference is, the vaccine works on populations more than it works on individuals. If you vaccinate one kid its not going to do much. The key is vaccinating enough that you establish herd immunity. Now, what that does mean is that there is a trade off. We trade off the people who are going to get the flu with the people who are going to have negative side effects from the vaccine. These will likely be different people. It certainly sucks for the person who gets the side effect from the flu, but the issue (as syndney ponted out above) is that overall we want the less serious result on the populaton as a whole.
Only in a perfect world unfortunately. What I want is more parental education about these vaccines prior to having our children treated like a heard and rubber stamped with the immunizations.
I'd love to see some sort of required funding from drug companies in situations like this. I'm sure that big pharma is always on the lookout for new and improved products but I wonder if they spend more research money on better erectile dysfunction meds right now, than on vaccinations that work 'well enough'.
Not sure which post/link/email this is... No great criticism of the Scepcop site, but a lot of the phpBB features seem to be turned off -- links to user profiles, unique links to individual posts, etc.
This is an interesting article by Dr Robert S. Mendelsohn from the 1980s that highlights that a lot of childhood illnesses aren't all that severe in reality -- and particularly that the supposed death rate of 1/1000 kids from measles is likely more like 1/10,000 in the Western world. The concern is that the rates of encephalitis and hence brain damage and ASD in kids who are getting immunised at younger and younger ages are much higher than the rates of catching the disease itself, in the case of measles -- therefore 'herd immunity' is not really even a worry or a factor -- on the simple science alone you are better of catching the wild disease and having your body deal with it. Further, I believe a lot of the driver behind vaxing kids is not to 'protect' them but to reduce the amount of time needed to care for them when they are sick with these illnesses, so you can go on to be a more productive little widget for the capitalist machine, don't have any days off work due to caring for a sick child, no downtime for the children, send 'em off to childcare without a worry in the world, etc. So it's more about convenience than the welfare of the child. Until a child is damaged, and then the care needs will go up extraordinarily, and possibly for the lifetime of the sufferer with a great loss of quality of life.
This is not to say the Mendelsohn was correct about everything, he was an iconoclast.
But think about it -- when I was growing up in the 70s, kids all caught measles, mumps and chickenpox , but I never heard of anyone I knew dying from it or being maimed by it -- but how many of us know of a child who now has ASD or indeed in our own families, in a new epidemic that is now hitting 1 in 70 boys?
The thing that has given the medicos a free pass all along is the relatively low rate of injury caused by the vaxes -- the diseases were harmful to 1% of the population or less, so they are maiming 2% now, who's counting? As long as it's not me who's injured. It's Russian Roulette with 1 bullet in 100 chambers, so you take the gamble.
Arouet, if your children are over 6 and unharmed, then you're probably out of the woods, but I'm concerned there is an awful lot of damage being inflicted on young infants with underdeveloped immune systems whose complexity we don't even understand, all we know is that jabbing them seems to induce some IgG without knowing or caring what else we are interfering with or causing. Then some people are getting mumps etc later in life when it's much worse, after being vaccinated, because the vaccine wears off in a few years, so you've actually just deferred the illness and put it into a more dangerous age range.
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 26 Sep 2012, 07:28, edited 1 time in total.
We are not the latest version of phpBB and we have not been upgraded. I have no control over this and Arouet has already asked SCEPCOP.
If you want to link to a specific post, find the post and copy and paste the url from your address bar. It works in a pinch. As far as 'profiles' this version doesn't really even have that ability. If you click on their ID, you might be directed to some of their information but I'm not sure if that's just me as a Mod/Admin or if everyone can do it.
In my day deafness from measles was very common and I remember my mom sweating out if I was going to die from the mumps. I didn't
After what I have gone through with my daughter, you can imagine my stress when her twins received their first immunizations. It's hard to tell much with them as they were high risk to begin with and are way under the norms for a single baby. I do have my concerns but I know that if anything does develop, if anyone can understand their problems, it would be their mother.
The mumps apparently is pretty harmless. Once again, in the case of measles, you are gambling on whether the possible harm caused by the vaccine outweighs the possible harm from the disease. The multiple antigen jabs seem particularly problematic. It's now hard to get single jabs, and it's apparently not good to have lots of single jabs either -- so you can wait a couple of years for the child's immune system to develop (say starting at aged 2 at the earliest) rather than hitting them with repeat boosters etc at 2 and 4 months, and the rest of the schedule under 2 years of age. The untested 'belief' that they are all completely safe at any age does not seem to be borne out by the evidence.
I'll have more time to devote to this thread next week. But I agree that this is the key question when it comes to vaccines - or any medication for that matter.
While any permanent problems are rare in young children, they do happen. I think the bigger problem is what happens if you get mumps as an adult, so keeping kids from being the typical petri dish of life and spreading this disease seems to be more of a reason to vaccinate.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/mum ... office.pdf
While I would like to agree with your reasoning for this statement, may I ask.... Do you have any kids?
I don't see how that is relevant -- faced with probabilities and the actual epidemiological findings once you include autism and SIDS rates, if there is a 2% chance your child will be harmed by vaccines and a 0.5% chance your child will be harmed by the wild diseases, which choice would you make? Is this a test like the 'irrational gambler's dilemma' or something? I have been looking after a young child, and I was pretty terrified when she was getting her DTP and MMR shots, against my better judgement and advice, but luckily she is OK -- has strong genes. I would strongly discourage her getting the proven unsafe Gardasil shots when she is 12, and I hope they go away before she is 12 and lose their govt subsidy -- they were banned in India -- and instead will help educate her on STIs and safe sex barrier practices as a better preventative. The govt's thinking is they don't mind a few cases of Guillain-Barré disease if they think they have made a disease class go away, which it won't. The rate of damage and mortality caused by the Gardasil vaccine is higher than the rates of death from the pap smear screenign campiagn, and you still need to do pap smears whether vaccinated or not.
The reason that I ask is this:
As I said, while I would like to agree with you.... but babies can't be put in a bubble to protect them from coming in contact with diseases. Especially if there are older siblings in the house. There are very few stay at home moms and infants wind up directly in day care situations where exposure to other children can increase the chance of colds, flu, viruses and childhood diseases. When you've got a new baby, it's hard enough to keep them from eating anything they can reach. Everything a 4-6 month old can grab, goes directly into the mouth. Trust me, they're not picky.
Where are you getting those stats from?
There's a 14.5 cases of ASD in 1000 stat from the MMR, vs 1 in 1000 via wild measles. That's actually a 14-fold relative risk. Compare with the previous diagnostic rate of ASD of 1 in 10,000 before the vaccination frenzy started in earnest.
Last edited by SydneyPSIder on 04 Oct 2012, 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
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