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The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

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The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby really? » 16 Aug 2010, 20:57

Deadly Whooping Cough, Once Wiped Out, Is Back
California is in the midst of its worst outbreak of whooping cough in a half-century. More than 2,700 cases have been reported so far this year — eight times last year's number at this point. Seven of the victims, all infants, have died.
The California epidemic has raised plenty of questions about the role of vaccination and the increasing numbers of parents who decide not to vaccinate their children. California's Department of Public Health cites three schools in the state where 80 percent of parents have signed a "personal belief exemption" to keep their children from being vaccinated.

More Deadly Whooping Cough, Once Wiped Out, Is Back : NPR
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Arouet » 16 Aug 2010, 21:21

These stories make me so frustrated and sad.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Craig Browning » 16 Aug 2010, 23:05

I have to second everyone's thought here... (and do pardon how I say this... it's not "Politically Correct" but...) the damned Hippies of today's era (vs. the real hippies of my own youth) have taken on an extreme and dangerous level of arrogance and for the wrong reasons. I fear society as a whole, is going to have to pay some hefty tariffs because of that arrogance and how the audacity of a few will ultimately cost the many. :x
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby ProfWag » 17 Aug 2010, 01:55

Do vaccinations cause autism and/or other issues in children? Current evidence doesn't point that direction but it's possible it has caused issues in some children. Do vaccinations prevent and save countless lives? Current evidence says the most assuredly do.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Scepcop » 23 Aug 2010, 22:55

ProfWag wrote:Do vaccinations cause autism and/or other issues in children? Current evidence doesn't point that direction but it's possible it has caused issues in some children. Do vaccinations prevent and save countless lives? Current evidence says the most assuredly do.


You don't know that. There are no credible studies comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated ones. Many parents who did not vaccinate their children report that they are healthier than other children at school.

David Icke even said that his kids were the only ones at school that didn't catch all the illnesses going around.

Common sense says you should not overload your baby's immune system like that early on.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Craig Browning » 24 Aug 2010, 01:18

:lol: I hate saying this, but David Icke says a lot of things... :lol:

Dr. Spok told us that raising children his way would give us better functioning adults but look at how his kids turned out...

Sorry, but there is a big issue when it comes to the vaccination thing... screw your own kids, what about the rest of society? Look at how "your" selfishness and not vaccinating "your" kids is endangering the rest of "your" community, allowing once "defeated" illnesses (like whooping cough) to come back and at a greater level of intensity.

What should be done with the parents that think this way when Small Pox returns or other crippling illnesses that these vaccinations have been PROVEN to control and more or less make go away from our realities?

People with HIV who deliberately spit, bite or even have sex with others can and have been charged with attempted Manslaughter... shouldn't the same go for the parents that made their children walking-talking bio-weapons?

Granted, Im' being a bit silly here, but at the same time there is a truth that must be weighed.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Arouet » 24 Aug 2010, 02:25

Scepcop wrote:You don't know that. There are no credible studies comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated ones.


I'll have to do a little digging, but this seems very wrong.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby ProfWag » 24 Aug 2010, 02:27

Arouet wrote:
Scepcop wrote:You don't know that. There are no credible studies comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated ones.


I'll have to do a little digging, but this seems very wrong.

Yes Arouet, it is wrong. I'm busy at work today and only have a few minutes, but if you don't find anything, I'll search tonight as well.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Scepcop » 24 Aug 2010, 02:54

Arouet wrote:
Scepcop wrote:You don't know that. There are no credible studies comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated ones.


I'll have to do a little digging, but this seems very wrong.


If you find anything, be sure to post it on YouTube too, cause the YouTube community debating the vaccination issue have said this, and no one has disproven them.

Do you guys ever think for a second that MAYBE what you are told by the media is wrong? Or are you total automatons? lol
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby ProfWag » 24 Aug 2010, 02:55

Scepcop wrote:
Arouet wrote:
Scepcop wrote:You don't know that. There are no credible studies comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated ones.


I'll have to do a little digging, but this seems very wrong.


If you find anything, be sure to post it on YouTube too, cause the YouTube community debating the vaccination issue have said this, and no one has disproven them.

Do you guys ever think for a second that MAYBE what you are told by the media is wrong? Or are you total automatons? lol

Have you thought for one second that maybe David Icke is wrong? Or Richard Gage? Or Alex Jones? Are you a slave to their conspiracy ideologies Scepcop?
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Scepcop » 24 Aug 2010, 03:00

Craig Browning wrote::lol: I hate saying this, but David Icke says a lot of things... :lol:

Dr. Spok told us that raising children his way would give us better functioning adults but look at how his kids turned out...

Sorry, but there is a big issue when it comes to the vaccination thing... screw your own kids, what about the rest of society? Look at how "your" selfishness and not vaccinating "your" kids is endangering the rest of "your" community, allowing once "defeated" illnesses (like whooping cough) to come back and at a greater level of intensity.

What should be done with the parents that think this way when Small Pox returns or other crippling illnesses that these vaccinations have been PROVEN to control and more or less make go away from our realities?

People with HIV who deliberately spit, bite or even have sex with others can and have been charged with attempted Manslaughter... shouldn't the same go for the parents that made their children walking-talking bio-weapons?

Granted, Im' being a bit silly here, but at the same time there is a truth that must be weighed.


You would be right, if you could find some credible objective studies that show that vaccinated children are healthier than unvaccinated children. But no one has been able to find any.

Even Dr. Mercola recommends only a few basic vaccinations, not the huge plethora of vaccines they give you, every single month for several years. Why do that to a baby's immune system?



Yes David Icke says a lot of things. Some true, and some not so true. Same with everyone else. Same with Randi. Same with the government. Same with ProfWag.

You gotta apply some critical thinking and look at both sides. Skeptics do that.

Randi, CSICOP and ProfWag don't. They take everything the establishment says as automatic truth.

If you don't believe me, ask ProfWag to name ONE thing that the government says that is false, or ONE thing that Randi says that is false. Just one. He can't. Cause his skepticism is completely one sided. Try it and you'll see. His behavior says it all, never mind the words.

Anyone can SAY they are a skeptic and are open minded. But if they can't name one thing that Randi or the government or the pharmaceutical industry says is false, then they are not.

They lied about the H1N1 vaccine being harmless. But would ProfWag admit it? Probably not. What does that tell you? Think about it.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Scepcop » 24 Aug 2010, 03:20

ProfWag wrote:
Arouet wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
I'll have to do a little digging, but this seems very wrong.


If you find anything, be sure to post it on YouTube too, cause the YouTube community debating the vaccination issue have said this, and no one has disproven them.

Do you guys ever think for a second that MAYBE what you are told by the media is wrong? Or are you total automatons? lol

Have you thought for one second that maybe David Icke is wrong? Or Richard Gage? Or Alex Jones? Are you a slave to their conspiracy ideologies Scepcop?


Yes I have. I am skeptical of Icke's claims about reptilian leaders for instance, and I think Alex Jones is a bit overparanoid and exaggerates things.

And I don't agree with Richard Gage that Reagan was a great president.

Unlike you, I think for myself.

Now it's your turn. Name something that the government says that you don't agree with. Or something that Randi says.
“Devotion to the truth is the hallmark of morality; there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby ProfWag » 24 Aug 2010, 03:39

Scepcop wrote:
Yes I have. I am skeptical of Icke's claims about reptilian leaders for instance, and I think Alex Jones is a bit overparanoid and exaggerates things.

And I don't agree with Richard Gage that Reagan was a great president.

Unlike you, I think for myself.

Now it's your turn. Name something that the government says that you don't agree with. Or something that Randi says.

I have answered you on several occasions Scepcop, but you have NEVER responded to my post. Here is a link to my last post after you challenged me. There are others as well if you want to make me dig them up.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1348&p=16114#p16114

I don't agree with A LOT of what Randi says, but what's pointless about you statement is I don't follow the guy at all. I don't know why you try to marry us to up. I'm rarely on his site, never met the guy, and really couldn't tell you what he does and doesn't believe in.
There is A LOT of the government's ways that I don't agree with. I didn't like Iraq at all. I don't agree with waterboarding. I don't agree with Gitmo. Don't even get me started on the Electoral College (though I'm sure you don't even know what that is if it isn't on youtube.)
Jeesuz H Christ Scepcop, give me a freaking break, will ya? I'm a big enough boy to think on my own, I can assure you.
Oh, and the only thing you can find to disagree with Gage on is his opinion of a president from 30 years ago? Sheesh.
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Scepcop » 24 Aug 2010, 03:58

ProfWag wrote:
Scepcop wrote:
Yes I have. I am skeptical of Icke's claims about reptilian leaders for instance, and I think Alex Jones is a bit overparanoid and exaggerates things.

And I don't agree with Richard Gage that Reagan was a great president.

Unlike you, I think for myself.

Now it's your turn. Name something that the government says that you don't agree with. Or something that Randi says.

I have answered you on several occasions Scepcop, but you have NEVER responded to my post. Here is a link to my last post after you challenged me. There are others as well if you want to make me dig them up.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1348&p=16114#p16114

I don't agree with A LOT of what Randi says, but what's pointless about you statement is I don't follow the guy at all. I don't know why you try to marry us to up. I'm rarely on his site, never met the guy, and really couldn't tell you what he does and doesn't believe in.
There is A LOT of the government's ways that I don't agree with. I didn't like Iraq at all. I don't agree with waterboarding. I don't agree with Gitmo. Don't even get me started on the Electoral College (though I'm sure you don't even know what that is if it isn't on youtube.)
Jeesuz H Christ Scepcop, give me a freaking break, will ya? I'm a big enough boy to think on my own, I can assure you.
Oh, and the only thing you can find to disagree with Gage on is his opinion of a president from 30 years ago? Sheesh.


Ok fair enough. As to Richard Gage, I don't know what his views are on anything other than 9/11, so how am I supposed to know what to disagree with him on? If he had an index of articles on many subjects, I might find something I disagree with him on. But he doesn't. All I know are his views on 9/11 and I agree with him on that. But I don't know his views on anything else. So what do you expect? That's a bad example.

Gage's approach is more left brained though, as he is an architect. His approach and strategy is different than mine. That I could see, and could tell during our phone conversation.

Icke has written a lot so I can see things that are farfetched in what he says, esp in his books when he goes on about the secret events in history. However, just because I'm skeptical about what Icke says about certain things doesn't mean I can disprove them either. If I can't, then all I can do is say "That is a farfetched claim and I am not sure I believe it."

Some things we can't prove or disprove, like Bigfoot for instance.

I don't agree with Alex Jones that everyone who disagrees with him must be a NWO shill.

You said you don't agree with a lot of what Randi says. Can you name a few examples?

Of course I know what an Electoral College is. Any American who votes knows what it is. Sheesh. The average educated American knows what it is. Why wouldn't I?

I don't like it either. At least we agree on that.

Can you name some lies by the government? In your link above, the examples you gave were vague. Can you cite specific lies by the government?
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Re: The Price Paid for Anti-Vaccination

Postby Arouet » 24 Aug 2010, 04:12

Scepcop wrote:If you find anything, be sure to post it on YouTube too, cause the YouTube community debating the vaccination issue have said this, and no one has disproven them.


Well, I don't spend much time reading youtube comments, so I won't post anything there. But here's a few things I found just by using google:


A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism
http://www.contentnejmorg.zuom.info/cgi ... 47/19/1477

Results Of the 537,303 children in the cohort (representing 2,129,864 person-years), 440,655 (82.0 percent) had received the MMR vaccine. We identified 316 children with a diagnosis of autistic disorder and 422 with a diagnosis of other autistic-spectrum disorders. After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

Conclusions This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.


Not quite the question you were looking for, but since the autism/MMR issue always pops up, thought I'd throw it in.



Couldn't read the full text of this one: Vaccinated children get milder measles infection: a community study from Guinea-Bissau http://www.jstor.org/stable/30106702

Vaccinated children who developed measles required more-intense exposure to become infected (they had a higher ratio of secondary cases [infected in the house] to index cases [infected outside the house]), had a lower mortality among secondary cases, and were less infectious (they generated fewer secondary cases than did unvaccinated children with measles).



Here's another one:
Postlicensure study of varicella vaccine effectiveness in a day-care setting
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/1 ... ine.4.aspx

Results. During the study period February 1, 1996, to September 1, 1997, 134 cases of varicella occurred in the unvaccinated and 11 cases occurred in the vaccinated children. The attack rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated were 2.49 and 14.66, respectively, for an overall vaccine effectiveness of 83% for mild/moderate disease.

Conclusions. In the day-care setting varicella vaccine demonstrated benefit in preventing and modifying wild-type varicella disease.



Those were the first 3 hits using the search terms "vaccinated unvaccinated study children retrospective ". I suspect I could go on finding examples all day.


Ok, one more!
Lower risk of atopic disorders in whole cell pertussis-vaccinated children
http://www.ersj.org.uk/content/22/6/962.full

The 700 families included 1,961 children. Data on vaccination status and atopic disorders were available for 1,724 children. Vaccinated children had a reduced risk of atopic disorders.


Is it possible that Youtube debaters don't have access to google?
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