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Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 29 Jun 2010, 01:20

Indigo Child wrote:Perhaps you need to refine your google, as well as research skills:

The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to ancient India in the 6th century BCE,[8] appearing first in Jainism.[9] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects.[10] In the West, the references to atoms emerged a century later from Leucippus, whose student, Democritus, systematized his views. In approximately 450 BCE, Democritus coined the term átomos (Greek: ἄτομος), which means "uncuttable" or "the smallest indivisible particle of matter". Although the Indian and Greek concepts of the atom were based purely on philosophy, modern science has retained the name coined by Democritus.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

More links:

http://www.unitedindia.com/laws_of_atoms.htm

Since ancient times Indian philosophers believed that except Akash (ether), all other elements were physically palpable and hence comprised miniscule particles of matter. The last miniscule particle of matter which could not be subdivided further was termed Parmanu. The word Parmanu is a combination of Param, meaning beyond, and anu meaning atom. Thus the term Parmanu is suggestive of the possibility that, at least at an abstract level Indian philosophers in ancient times had conceived the possibility of splitting an atom which, as we know today, is the source of atomic energy. This Indian concept of the atom was developed independently and prior to the development of the idea in the Greco-Roman world. The first Indian philosopher who formulated ideas about the atom in a systematic manner was Kanada who lived in the 6th century B.C. Another Indian philosopher, Pakudha Katyayana who also lived in the 6th century B.C. and was a contemporary of Gautama Buddha, had also propounded ideas about the atomic constitution of the material world.


Sorry, it was not the Greeks. Atomism and Philosophy in general is much older than the Greeks.

One shouldn't use wikipedia for research. Also, one shouldn't use the source itself (meaning, if I wanted to show proof of bigfoot, I wouldn't cite bfro.org.) When conducting research, you should look for the most unbiased report. I teach that in my undergraduate courses.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 30 Jun 2010, 05:19

Prowag, the point is simple here. You said to coolwarn that Democritus
was the founder of atoms and there is nothing about India mentioned. I
then produced 4 articles to show you clearly that Indian philosophers were
the first to talk about atoms.

There is nothing controversial here. It is something every student of Indian
philosophy knows. Atomism is a fundamental philosophy in all Indian philosophical
schools, and its roots go back very far.

I am not discussing this point any further with you. You can either allow yourself
to be educated and accept that philosophy and atomism is older than the greeks,
or you can continue to remain ignorant about non-western traditions of thought
and their contributions.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 30 Jun 2010, 10:08

Indigo Child wrote:Prowag, the point is simple here. You said to coolwarn that Democritus
was the founder of atoms and there is nothing about India mentioned. I
then produced 4 articles to show you clearly that Indian philosophers were
the first to talk about atoms.

There is nothing controversial here. It is something every student of Indian
philosophy knows. Atomism is a fundamental philosophy in all Indian philosophical
schools, and its roots go back very far.

I am not discussing this point any further with you. You can either allow yourself
to be educated and accept that philosophy and atomism is older than the greeks,
or you can continue to remain ignorant about non-western traditions of thought
and their contributions.

Actually Indigo, I asked him who Democritus was because he had said: "Modern science has only discovered atom after the advent of electron microscope!! And its been pretty recent, if compared to the Indian ancient knowledge." He had ignored a western scientist who had also discussed the properties of the atom 2.5 thousand years ago.
The responses to you are just to trip your trigger a bit for always fighting with me. I could say my grass is green and you would call me a liar. But I do find it interesting that western science doesn't give any credit to Indian science or medicine. Why is that? Perhaps a lengthy research paper is needed. Or perhaps it's simply because India's science or medicine doesn't follow proper scientific protocol. I don't know as I've never searched for a reason. it might make for an interesting thread though. If Indian medicine could cure diabetes, I'm pretty sure my Dad would have done anything to have saved having to amputate his leg in the last couple years of his life. There are 21 million Americans alone that have diabetes. If Indian medicine has a cure, why aren't more people going to Indian medicine kicking and screaming? Things that make me go hmmmmm.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 30 Jun 2010, 10:19

And one final point on this subject, Indigo Child. If you're so confident that there are yogi's and doctors in India who have actual cures for diabetes, parkinsons, AIDS, cancer, etc., WHY IN THE HELL ARE YOU SPENDING ALL YOUR FREAKING TIME ON A FORUM THAT ONLY HAS A FEW PEOPLE READING IT!!! Why aren't you compiling your data and sending it to JAMA? Why aren't you out there spreading the word and SAVING PEOPLE'S LIVES?
Those are the real reasons I doubt the accuracy of your posts concerning cures for such diseases. If you really believed them and are spending your time on "debunkingskeptics.com" rather than spreading the word to places that count and can give your claims credence, you are missing out on being one of the most famous and richest people in the world, not to mention the lives you could be saving.
I am not a professor of medicine Indigo, my specialty is the rather boring subject of management. I'm afraid I can't help you spread your yoga/ayurveda claims.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 30 Jun 2010, 11:11

Just to correct Democritus was not a scientist, he was a philosopher. He did not give the properties of atoms,
he merely proposed the idea that the world must be made of atoms, because he said it would be impossible to
divide matter up endlessly. It was not based on any evidence, and his atoms are wrong. He said everything is made
out of atoms of different shapes for instance. This idea did not take off in ancient Greece, Aristotle rejected it and
Aristotle's physical theories(all wrong) dominated Western philosophy and science right up to the times of Galileo, and
it was not until Dalton that the atom was discovered. Prior to that Western philosophy and science did not believe in atoms,
and the sole philosopher who said anything about atoms, mentioned it only as an idea, and did not develop any theory or
philosophy. In fact in all likiliness, Democritus probably heard about it from the Indians, because other than him, there is
nobody else in the West who said anything about atoms until Dalton. It is not a Western concept.

On the other hand, in the Indian tradition we can trace back atoms back to the Vedic texts and it was such a well developed
philosophy, that every philosophical tradition in India had something to say on them. Unlike the West, they were widely accepted,
and very elaborate philosophical analysis of atoms was done, as well as empirical investigations of chemical changes. It was not until
modern timies that similar conceptions of atoms were created. The Indians obviously understood atoms to a very high degree, for
they knew they were spherical, they knew they atoms combined and broke and energy was needed to form or break bonds, and they even knew
light consisted of light particles. They knew about atomic aggregation. They knew about different states of matter, solid, liquid and gas
as being due to atoms having different levels of energy. Most importantly, they knew matter was all energy. This is all very modern knowledge.

It is also clear that the Greeks inherited the 5 element theory from the Indians as well. However, once again the 5 element theory is not as developed
as its Indian counterpart, which describe the elements in terms of properties and their corresponding sense faculty. Once again every Indian philosophical
schools accepts the 5 elements and has a lot to say on them(tattvas, mahabhutas, skandas)

So actually coolnwarn is right, atoms were only discovered in the West in modern times, and this idea was never accepted in the West until then. In contrast
they have been widely accepted in Indian philosophy, and you can find tons of discourses on them by every Indian philosophical school.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 30 Jun 2010, 11:23

Finally, to answer why you did not learn about this in school. Well, the simple answer
is you don't learn Eastern, especially Indian philosophy at school. It is a specialist subject,
which I happen to have studied. I have also studied Western philosophy, so I have a well
rounded knowledge about world philosophy.

The reason it does not have wider acceptance in the West is also simple to answer, there is
lack of awareness about non-western cultures, their history and their contributions. This does
not mean their sciences, philosophy, literature or culture is flawed. They have made remarkable
contributions in all these areas, and they have been just as rigorous, if not more as the West in
these areas. Sorry you don't know about it, perhaps you should educate yourself about other civilisations
on this planet, which make up 5000 years of history and more than half of the worlds population ;)
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 30 Jun 2010, 12:34

Bringing this back to Yoga and Ayurveda.

You seem to be under this impression they are some kind of voodo.
Nothing can be further from the truth, and you will know this if you actually
studied them.

They are classified as sciences in the Indian tradition(vidya) How does something
qualify as a science in the Indian tradition? It must be 1) empirical 2) rational and
3) methodical 4) it must be based on theory.

The only real point that Western science and Indian science differ on is point 4,
as Western theory is based on the theory of materialism and reduces everything
to matter, and Indian theory is based on the theory of idealism and reduces everything
to mind. The rest is the same, Indians pay as much attention to empirical data and rational
interpretation of empirical data as the West does. In addition they also pay strong attention
to phenomenological data, which only recently has been accepted as valid in the West.

Let us look at Ayurveda for instance. A typical Ayurvedic consulation will last up to an hour. It will involve:
An examination of the patient's pulse, tongue, voice, skin, eyes, urine, stools and general appearance. An
extensive questionaire about diet, lifestyle habits, mental habits and history of diagnosis. This happens in
every consultation, no matter what afflication you go for, because every patient is different. All this data is
collected by the physician and then a diagnosis is made and a treatment plan drawn up tailored to the patient.

The diagnosis is based on a list of diseases given in Ayurvedic texts, which contain extensive data on symptoms
classified into various categories. Almost all of the modern diseases we know are given in these texts. Then
finally treatment is given as prescribed in the texts, which will often consist of drugs, diet and lifestyle recommendations. In
the case of drugs extensive data is given on thousands of different kinds of plants, sea salts, gem stones, metals, minerals
in the texts and various formulations.

Now if that is not empirical, rational and methodical, then I don't know what is.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 30 Jun 2010, 20:51

Indigo Child wrote:
Now if that is not empirical, rational and methodical, then I don't know what is.

Yes, that is true. ;)
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby coolnwarm » 01 Jul 2010, 01:57

ProfWag wrote:Funny, when you "google" "history of the atom," there's not one word about India: http://www.neoam.cc.ok.us/~rjones/Pages ... _atom.html


Doesn't matter if there's not much information about India in the so called "History" of atom.
Your so called history is not even 200 hundred years old. Why should the new-bee scientist give credit to the Vedic sages???
The science mafia that is controlling all the drug industry and their achievements and who comes out with what won't credit
the Vedic civilization that makes their achievements look like a dwarf.

They look facts in the face and disbelief them. They have no explanations on how the Vedic sages/scientists knew so much about the Atom.
So they cancel it out altogether and go on drumming their own glory.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 01 Jul 2010, 02:29

coolnwarm wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Funny, when you "google" "history of the atom," there's not one word about India: http://www.neoam.cc.ok.us/~rjones/Pages ... _atom.html


Doesn't matter if there's not much information about India in the so called "History" of atom.
Your so called history is not even 200 hundred years old. Why should the new-bee scientist give credit to the Vedic sages???
The science mafia that is controlling all the drug industry and their achievements and who comes out with what won't credit
the Vedic civilization that makes their achievements look like a dwarf.

They look facts in the face and disbelief them. They have no explanations on how the Vedic sages/scientists knew so much about the Atom.
So they cancel it out altogether and go on drumming their own glory.

Okay, thanks for that...information...
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 01 Jul 2010, 03:11

In continuation of your education on Ayurveda ;)

Any scientific system must have a classification system. The earliest
Western classification system of dividing the world into minerals, animals and
plants were inadequate. More scientific system arose in the West with
Carol Linnius. In Ayurveda classification systems were already being used
long before linnius. In fact one of the notable features of Indian sciences
is their obsession with classification and hair-splitting analysis.

In the Sushruta Samhita there are 184 chapters and description of 1,120
illnesses, 700 medicinal plants, 64 preparations from mineral sources and
57 preparations based on animal sources."

Sushruta describes eight categories of surgical procedures:

Excision (chedana) is a procedure whereby a part or whole of the limb is cut off from
the parent. Incision (bhedana) is made to achieve effective drainage or exposure of
underlying structures to let the content out. Scraping (lekhana) or scooping is carried
out to remove a growth or flesh of an ulcer, tartar of teeth, etc. the veins, hydrocele
and ascitic fluid in the abdomen are drained by puncturing with special instrument (vyadhana).
The sinuses and cavities with foreign bodies are probed (esana) for establishing their size,
site, number, shape, position, situation, etc. Sravana (blood-letting) is to be carried out in
skin diseases, vidradhis, localised swelling, etc. in case of accidental injuries and in intentional
incisions, the lips of the wound are apposed and united by stitching (svana).

The ancient Hindus of India excelled at surgery. The great surgical textbook, Sushruta
Samhita, probably dates back to the last centuries B.C. This work described 20 sharp and 101 blunt
surgical instruments. These instruments included forceps, pincers, trocars (sharp-pointed instruments
fitted with a small tube), and cauteries (irons to heat and sear tissue). Most of these surgical tools were
made of steel. The ancient Hindus also used lancets to carry out cataract surgery, scalpels to restore
amputated noses via plastic surgery, and sharp knives to remove bladder stones.


http://www.discoveriesinmedicine.com/Ra ... ments.html

Sushruta Samhita is the only complete book which deals with the problems of practical surgery and
midwifery. Sushruta was one of the first to study the human anatomy. In the Sushruta Samhita he has
described in detail the study of anatomy. Sushruta’s forte was rhinoplasty and ophthalmology. Surgical
operations done to remove obstructions in the intestines and bladder stones were also explained by him.

The samhita discusses in minute detail how to perform prosthetic surgery to replace limbs, cosmetic surgery
on different parts of the body, cesarean operations, setting of compound fractures, and even brain surgery.
The details of the steps of this operation, as recorded in the Sushruta Samhita, are amazingly similar to the
steps that are followed even today in such advanced plastic surgery.


Sushruta says there are 76 conditions that affect eyes. He prescribes accurate surgical methods for 51
of them.


The treatise's insight, accuracy and detail of the surgical descriptions are most impressive.
In the book's 184 chapters, 1,120 conditions are listed, including injuries and illnesses relating to
ageing and mental illness. The compendium of Sushruta includes many chapters on the training and
practice of surgeons. The Sushruta Samhita describes over 120 surgical instruments (Figure-3),
5,13 300 surgical procedures and classifies human surgery in 8 categories.


http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xm ... shruta.xml

You can read an English translation of the Sushrath Samita here(download pdf): http://www.archive.org/details/englisht ... 00susruoft

Read on from page 35 for a content lists of chapters.

So that is the classification of 1,120 diseases, of which there are 76 eye diseases
of which 51 are treated by surgical means. 8 types of surgery are
described and 125 surgical instruments are used to peform 300 types of surgical
operations. Surgical operations include plastic surgery, brain surgery, cataract removals,
ceaserian sections etc

If you still contend that this is not empirical, rational and methodical - or in short scientific, then you
clearly do not understand what science means. This kind of complete scientific medicine we see in Ayurveda
did not exist in the West until the modern age. The ancient Indians were far ahead of the west in medicine
and science in general by almost 3000 years.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 01 Jul 2010, 03:39

coolnwarm wrote:
ProfWag wrote:Funny, when you "google" "history of the atom," there's not one word about India: http://www.neoam.cc.ok.us/~rjones/Pages ... _atom.html


Doesn't matter if there's not much information about India in the so called "History" of atom.
Your so called history is not even 200 hundred years old. Why should the new-bee scientist give credit to the Vedic sages???
The science mafia that is controlling all the drug industry and their achievements and who comes out with what won't credit
the Vedic civilization that makes their achievements look like a dwarf.

They look facts in the face and disbelief them. They have no explanations on how the Vedic sages/scientists knew so much about the Atom.
So they cancel it out altogether and go on drumming their own glory.


This is true indeed. I am British, I have been brought up studying Western philosophy and sciences.
Later I studied Indian philosophy and sciences. So I am in a good position to compare and contrast,
and it is very clear Indian philosophy and science is ahead in all areas, and the irony here is, Indian
philosophy and science is at least 3000 years older.

I think what this goes to show is that science is not a Western phenomenon, and non-Western cultures
such as the Vedic civilisation also had their own scientific culture long before the West. The East is clearly
far ahead of the West if we look at 5000 years of history. The West is quite young and immature in comparison.

In every area if I have looked at, I have been surprised to find the Indians are ahead of the West. In medicine, Indians
have a far more rigorous classification system, and have better treatments for diseases which the West struggles with.
In linguistics, Indians have a far more scientific and analytical grammar system, which the West have failed to even come
close to, and even top Western linguists have admitted to this. In psychology, there is nothing that even compares to Yoga
in the West, the meticulous research we see by yogis in mind, consciousness states and the elaborate maps they drew is missing
in the West. In music, Indian music is far more precise and subtle(microtonal) and they clearly knew something about natural rhythms

As a Westerner myself I have no problem admitting how superior the Vedic systems are over ours. I have no doubt in my mind at
all, this was a super-civilisation. And we would be foolish not to try and learn from it. Compared to us they are masters.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 01 Jul 2010, 04:02

They have no explanations on how the Vedic sages/scientists knew so much about the Atom.


I know how they knew about the atoms: Meditation. This is a higher science the West has failed to understand.
I have seen atoms myself in meditative states. Fritjof Capra, the author of "Tao of physics" and a widely respected
philosopher of science, has said himself he has seen atoms in a state of meditation.

Meditation is the most advanced scientific tool we have, because it is the only tool that can take us into the inner dimension
of something. It is so simple, just through the act of witnessing, one can see reality. It is clear this is what all Indian sciences
are based on. Pure observation. When you observe more clearly, you begin to see the relationships between things. All science
begins with observation. The more keener yours powers of observation, the more you will see.

The problem in Western science is that it tries to intellectualize all observations and turn it into theories. So rather than seeing
things as they really are, we end up conceptualizing them. The secret of the Vedic civilisation is simple, they kept on seeing and
the longer they kept seeing, the more they saw.

Western science is stuck at the 5 senses version of reality, and fails to see any reality beyond that. They have a naive view of
reality, much like a child does. It has long been proven by philosophers that the reality the senses show us is not the actual reality.
The senses deceive us all the time. Now we know for a fact that our sensory view of reality is completely false from quantum physics.
The skeptics here are still trying to cling onto the 5 sense version of reality. They are like flat-earthers, failing to move on.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby ProfWag » 01 Jul 2010, 04:07

Indigo Child wrote:If you still contend that this is not empirical, rational and methodical - or in short scientific, then you
clearly do not understand what science means. This kind of complete scientific medicine we see in Ayurveda
did not exist in the West until the modern age. The ancient Indians were far ahead of the west in medicine
and science in general by almost 3000 years.

Yes,I agree with you that ancient Indians were far ahead of the west by almost 3000 years. (Although the US is only 235 years old, but that's a different story...)
But thank you for the information. I have read it, am reading other supporting articles, and am reading conflicting articles as well. I only hope...HOPE...that the casual reader does the same and does their own research into healthcare and what is best for themselves and their family. Please, please, please don't take the word of an anonymous poster on an obscure website who says that ayurveda can cure cancer and all sorts of things. Do your own research from sources that you trust and make informed decisions.
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Re: Yoga cures Cancer and Aids

Postby Indigo Child » 01 Jul 2010, 05:09

Yes,I agree with you that ancient Indians were far ahead of the west by almost 3000 years. (Although the US is only 235 years old, but that's a different story...)
But thank you for the information. I have read it, am reading other supporting articles, and am reading conflicting articles as well. I only hope...HOPE...that the casual reader does the same and does their own research into healthcare and what is best for themselves and their family. Please, please, please don't take the word of an anonymous poster on an obscure website who says that ayurveda can cure cancer and all sorts of things. Do your own research from sources that you trust and make informed decisions.


Well, if you admit that ancient Indians were far ahead of the West in science, medicine by almost 3000 years, then you should
be able to see Yoga and Ayurveda in a new light, as well as the claims that they can actually treat diseases that West struggles
with better. Such as Cancer and Aids. The branch of Ayurveda that deals with very fatal diseases like this is known as rasa-shastra,
in which bhasms(ashes) of heavy metals like mercury, lead, arsenic gold, zinc are chemically prepared. They know that the metals on their
own are highly toxic, and hence why very elaborate chemical processes are undertaken to treat them, and then only the ashes are used.
Indeed, it is true that such a science is unknown in the West, but then again the West is 3000 years behind.

This book has some description of this branch of Ayurveda: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FGGX ... &q&f=false

Read from page 83 onwards

Note the articles I have already shown you which claimed to have cured AIDS and cancer were using rasa-shastra.
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